0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/367 Thanks! 1 00:00:11,100 --> 00:00:12,539 Can you hear me? 2 00:00:12,540 --> 00:00:15,959 Good. OK, so 3 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:17,069 my Ph.D. 4 00:00:17,070 --> 00:00:19,319 is interdisciplinary, so that means I'm 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,719 based in between faculty 6 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,059 of business and law and computer science 7 00:00:24,060 --> 00:00:25,259 department. 8 00:00:25,260 --> 00:00:26,969 So this means I'm kind of a jack of 9 00:00:26,970 --> 00:00:28,979 several trades, but I'm not a master of 10 00:00:28,980 --> 00:00:29,980 any of them. 11 00:00:32,369 --> 00:00:34,639 So the topic 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,179 I'm gonna to be talking about today is 13 00:00:36,180 --> 00:00:38,249 digital advertising and 14 00:00:38,250 --> 00:00:40,709 how it works, how it doesn't work, and 15 00:00:40,710 --> 00:00:43,169 how we could change the 16 00:00:43,170 --> 00:00:45,689 way that we match providers and goods 17 00:00:45,690 --> 00:00:48,389 of goods and services with 18 00:00:48,390 --> 00:00:49,590 customers who need to buy them. 19 00:00:51,170 --> 00:00:53,269 So the Internet has been called the 20 00:00:53,270 --> 00:00:55,729 nervous system of the 21st century, 21 00:00:55,730 --> 00:00:57,979 um, its providers incredible value, 22 00:00:57,980 --> 00:00:59,869 but the business model that a lot of the 23 00:00:59,870 --> 00:01:02,209 services we use to access it and to 24 00:01:02,210 --> 00:01:04,549 communicate with each other are free. 25 00:01:04,550 --> 00:01:06,649 And they're subsidized by, 26 00:01:06,650 --> 00:01:09,109 um, a business model that's based on, 27 00:01:09,110 --> 00:01:11,689 um, surveillance of consumers, 28 00:01:11,690 --> 00:01:13,130 and that is advertising. 29 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:16,400 This is a 512 billion dollar industry. 30 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:18,769 How does it work? 31 00:01:18,770 --> 00:01:20,659 Well, it's a way of matching 32 00:01:22,670 --> 00:01:24,469 the supply of goods and services with 33 00:01:24,470 --> 00:01:26,479 customers who want to buy them. 34 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,069 But originally, the purpose of 35 00:01:28,070 --> 00:01:30,299 advertising was 36 00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:32,629 to to get brands 37 00:01:32,630 --> 00:01:33,980 to be able to be trusted. 38 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,999 And by placing an ad in a newspaper 39 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,279 or billboard as a way of saying 40 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:41,569 that they're a trusted brand, that they 41 00:01:41,570 --> 00:01:43,099 weren't cowboys, they weren't going to 42 00:01:43,100 --> 00:01:44,519 rip people off. 43 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,309 It was also about cultural imprinting, 44 00:01:46,310 --> 00:01:47,929 which is the idea that if you make an 45 00:01:47,930 --> 00:01:50,269 association between a product and 46 00:01:50,270 --> 00:01:52,459 a certain way of life or a certain 47 00:01:52,460 --> 00:01:54,739 set of values, then consumers can express 48 00:01:54,740 --> 00:01:56,780 themselves through buying the products. 49 00:01:57,890 --> 00:01:59,929 But those don't have much to do with the 50 00:01:59,930 --> 00:02:01,489 kind of advertising that funds the 51 00:02:01,490 --> 00:02:04,159 Internet today that is 52 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:05,239 targeted advertising. 53 00:02:06,620 --> 00:02:08,448 And the idea of targeted advertising is, 54 00:02:08,449 --> 00:02:11,239 you know, something about an individual 55 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,519 and you use that knowledge to send them a 56 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,799 special message which is designed 57 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:17,449 to influence them to buy something. 58 00:02:19,740 --> 00:02:21,959 So for those who don't 59 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,089 know, so this is 20 percent of 60 00:02:24,090 --> 00:02:26,179 the ad industry, but it's the majority 61 00:02:26,180 --> 00:02:28,499 of revenue of a lot of the the businesses 62 00:02:28,500 --> 00:02:30,419 that provide free services online. 63 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:32,879 So for those who don't know, this is a 64 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,889 kind of a simplified version of how that 65 00:02:34,890 --> 00:02:36,239 industry works. 66 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:37,829 On the one side, you've got sellers who 67 00:02:37,830 --> 00:02:38,909 want to sell stuff. 68 00:02:38,910 --> 00:02:40,649 On the other side, you've got consumers, 69 00:02:40,650 --> 00:02:41,909 buyers. 70 00:02:41,910 --> 00:02:43,679 In the middle, you've got a very complex 71 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,919 kind of web of intermediaries. 72 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:49,559 And so the sellers will have marketers 73 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,659 whose job it is to to to 74 00:02:51,660 --> 00:02:53,099 try and sell stuff. 75 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:55,529 They'll go to advertisers who will create 76 00:02:55,530 --> 00:02:57,539 the creative content to advertise the 77 00:02:57,540 --> 00:02:59,139 products. They'll use something called 78 00:02:59,140 --> 00:03:01,289 the demand side platform, which is an 79 00:03:01,290 --> 00:03:02,999 intermediary service that allows them to 80 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,189 automatically pay for ad 81 00:03:05,190 --> 00:03:06,389 space. 82 00:03:06,390 --> 00:03:08,279 And they'll do that through either an ad 83 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,979 network or sometimes an ad exchange. 84 00:03:10,980 --> 00:03:13,229 And the idea of an ad network is to 85 00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:16,199 aggregate all of the available ad space 86 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,509 and allocate ads to the space ad 87 00:03:18,510 --> 00:03:20,579 exchange, allowing this to happen through 88 00:03:20,580 --> 00:03:23,129 a marketplace where there are auctions 89 00:03:23,130 --> 00:03:25,259 and so a publisher. 90 00:03:25,260 --> 00:03:27,389 So this could be any website that has 91 00:03:27,390 --> 00:03:29,609 display advertising space will 92 00:03:29,610 --> 00:03:31,739 engage with an ad network 93 00:03:31,740 --> 00:03:33,449 or an ad exchange through what's called a 94 00:03:33,450 --> 00:03:35,219 supply side platform. 95 00:03:35,220 --> 00:03:36,899 The supply side platform on the demand 96 00:03:36,900 --> 00:03:38,669 side platform have auctions with each 97 00:03:38,670 --> 00:03:40,229 other through the ad exchange 98 00:03:41,670 --> 00:03:43,829 and the amount that each 99 00:03:43,830 --> 00:03:45,959 display opportunity goes for 100 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:47,759 depends on how much is known about the 101 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,169 user that's visiting that page. 102 00:03:50,610 --> 00:03:52,619 So there's a whole load of personal data 103 00:03:52,620 --> 00:03:54,719 that it gets collected in order to do 104 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,069 this targeting. 105 00:03:56,070 --> 00:03:57,929 And sometimes they'll be third party data 106 00:03:57,930 --> 00:04:00,079 brokers that will be involved as well. 107 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,949 And the and the idea is that the more 108 00:04:01,950 --> 00:04:03,239 that's known about an individual, the 109 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,399 more that the ad space is worth paying 110 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:06,400 for. 111 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,189 So that's how it works in theory, 112 00:04:10,310 --> 00:04:12,429 does it actually work in practice? 113 00:04:12,430 --> 00:04:13,719 So just for a purely business 114 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:14,720 perspective, 115 00:04:15,820 --> 00:04:17,648 it's not really clear whether it does or 116 00:04:17,649 --> 00:04:19,958 not. We do know that about 44 117 00:04:19,959 --> 00:04:22,629 percent of all the ads that are served 118 00:04:22,630 --> 00:04:24,859 in this way, I never actually interview. 119 00:04:24,860 --> 00:04:27,069 So that's classed as being on a page 120 00:04:27,070 --> 00:04:29,949 that is visible to a user 121 00:04:29,950 --> 00:04:32,319 for more than one second, the remainder 122 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,539 the remaining fifty six percent. 123 00:04:34,540 --> 00:04:36,159 It's not clear whether they get seen 124 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:37,929 either, because they might be ignored by 125 00:04:37,930 --> 00:04:39,009 consumers. 126 00:04:39,010 --> 00:04:41,169 They might be blocked through ad 127 00:04:41,170 --> 00:04:42,609 blocking software. 128 00:04:42,610 --> 00:04:44,019 And there's other things like click 129 00:04:44,020 --> 00:04:45,339 fraud. So this is where 130 00:04:46,750 --> 00:04:48,879 fraudsters essentially cheat marketers 131 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,249 out of their outspend by generating fake 132 00:04:51,250 --> 00:04:53,349 clicks and views of adverts 133 00:04:53,350 --> 00:04:54,909 and they charge them per click or per 134 00:04:54,910 --> 00:04:55,910 view. 135 00:04:56,260 --> 00:04:57,519 Then there's the question of whether the 136 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,439 profiling is particularly accurate. 137 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,569 I think in some cases it is, but a lot 138 00:05:01,570 --> 00:05:03,219 of cases it isn't. 139 00:05:03,220 --> 00:05:05,649 I logged on to the ad preferences 140 00:05:05,650 --> 00:05:07,809 manager of an ad network 141 00:05:07,810 --> 00:05:10,029 and looked at my own profile and 142 00:05:10,030 --> 00:05:12,459 they think that I am a father 143 00:05:12,460 --> 00:05:14,799 with two kids and that I have a pet dog. 144 00:05:15,940 --> 00:05:17,889 As far as I know, neither of those things 145 00:05:17,890 --> 00:05:18,890 are true. 146 00:05:19,570 --> 00:05:21,489 So any targeting that's 147 00:05:22,570 --> 00:05:24,369 targeted at me on that basis is unlikely 148 00:05:24,370 --> 00:05:25,420 to be correct. 149 00:05:26,470 --> 00:05:28,839 But maybe there are some cases 150 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:31,089 where the the adverts that reach 151 00:05:31,090 --> 00:05:33,159 people in this way are relevant to 152 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:34,219 them. 153 00:05:34,220 --> 00:05:36,369 And the theory is that this is 154 00:05:36,370 --> 00:05:38,139 good for consumers because it's more 155 00:05:38,140 --> 00:05:39,759 relevant adverts and therefore things 156 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:40,809 that they might actually be interested 157 00:05:40,810 --> 00:05:41,810 in. 158 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,289 But aside from that, there are 159 00:05:44,290 --> 00:05:47,139 a whole bunch of problems with this 160 00:05:47,140 --> 00:05:49,629 infrastructure for consumers. 161 00:05:49,630 --> 00:05:51,280 The first one is surveillance. 162 00:05:52,630 --> 00:05:55,239 The ad industry makes surveillance 163 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,519 very valuable. It encourages it invests 164 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:58,520 in it. 165 00:05:59,110 --> 00:06:00,399 I'm not going to go into detail on this, 166 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,409 but I think there are lots of people 167 00:06:02,410 --> 00:06:04,599 talking at the Congress who 168 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:06,039 will be able to articulate far better 169 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,139 than me the dangers of surveillance 170 00:06:08,140 --> 00:06:09,620 for civil liberties, civil liberties. 171 00:06:11,650 --> 00:06:13,719 The second problem is the use of 172 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,059 this infrastructure for distribution 173 00:06:16,060 --> 00:06:17,349 of malware. 174 00:06:17,350 --> 00:06:19,449 So why would you try and 175 00:06:19,450 --> 00:06:21,579 hack in someone, someone's computer if 176 00:06:21,580 --> 00:06:23,559 you could just simply buy access to it? 177 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,659 So if you if you can pose 178 00:06:25,660 --> 00:06:27,879 as a marketer, 179 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:29,589 then you can use this infrastructure to 180 00:06:29,590 --> 00:06:31,089 deliver a personalized 181 00:06:32,350 --> 00:06:34,059 phishing attack through an advert. 182 00:06:34,060 --> 00:06:35,859 So that advert will resolve if it's 183 00:06:35,860 --> 00:06:38,409 clicked to a landing page, which serves 184 00:06:38,410 --> 00:06:39,410 malicious software. 185 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:42,339 The other problem is that with all this 186 00:06:42,340 --> 00:06:44,529 personal data sloshing around and being 187 00:06:44,530 --> 00:06:46,819 bought and sold, it's very hard to 188 00:06:46,820 --> 00:06:48,159 prevent it from getting into the wrong 189 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:49,160 hands. 190 00:06:50,140 --> 00:06:52,449 Where, for instance, data broker 191 00:06:52,450 --> 00:06:54,549 might sell information about 192 00:06:54,550 --> 00:06:55,689 consumers. 193 00:06:55,690 --> 00:06:58,089 There was a case where this happened 194 00:06:58,090 --> 00:07:00,429 and a Vietnamese scanning outfit just 195 00:07:00,430 --> 00:07:03,009 bought a whole load of personal data 196 00:07:03,010 --> 00:07:05,049 from a data broker and then sold it onto 197 00:07:05,050 --> 00:07:06,050 to others. 198 00:07:07,390 --> 00:07:09,069 And there's the problems with personalization. 199 00:07:09,070 --> 00:07:10,989 Generally, this whole system is set up to 200 00:07:10,990 --> 00:07:12,369 personalize stuff. 201 00:07:12,370 --> 00:07:14,709 But what seems to be 202 00:07:14,710 --> 00:07:17,079 convenient personalization to 203 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:18,789 some engineers in Silicon Valley or 204 00:07:18,790 --> 00:07:20,859 wherever might two 205 00:07:20,860 --> 00:07:22,359 other groups seem more like 206 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,569 discrimination when one person's 207 00:07:25,570 --> 00:07:26,889 personalization is another's 208 00:07:26,890 --> 00:07:27,819 discrimination? 209 00:07:27,820 --> 00:07:29,619 And when you can't tell how this is being 210 00:07:29,620 --> 00:07:31,359 done, when there's no way to scrutinize 211 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,639 the algorithms that are driving this, 212 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:34,919 then I think we have a problem. 213 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,189 And there's a final interesting 214 00:07:38,190 --> 00:07:40,259 psychological problem 215 00:07:40,260 --> 00:07:42,329 with personalization, which is 216 00:07:42,330 --> 00:07:44,669 that if you get too much of it, then 217 00:07:44,670 --> 00:07:46,959 it's people tend to get freaked out. 218 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:48,749 And so this is there's a parallel here 219 00:07:48,750 --> 00:07:50,939 with some research that's been done 220 00:07:50,940 --> 00:07:52,199 in the field of robotics. 221 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,299 Back in the 70s, they 222 00:07:54,300 --> 00:07:56,429 found that they were looking at how 223 00:07:56,430 --> 00:07:58,799 people responded to robots 224 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,899 with human features and they found that a 225 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:02,699 little bit of human features makes people 226 00:08:02,700 --> 00:08:05,009 respond better to robots they prefer to 227 00:08:05,010 --> 00:08:07,019 to interact with them, but only up to a 228 00:08:07,020 --> 00:08:09,479 point. After a certain point, 229 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:10,619 there's something called the uncanny 230 00:08:10,620 --> 00:08:12,689 valley where the robot looks too much 231 00:08:12,690 --> 00:08:14,819 like a human and people get freaked out 232 00:08:14,820 --> 00:08:16,769 because it's not quite human, but it's 233 00:08:16,770 --> 00:08:17,909 almost a human. 234 00:08:17,910 --> 00:08:19,769 And so there are some marketing companies 235 00:08:19,770 --> 00:08:21,869 that are seriously worrying about 236 00:08:21,870 --> 00:08:24,149 a similar effect being the case 237 00:08:24,150 --> 00:08:26,669 in in in personalization 238 00:08:26,670 --> 00:08:28,649 that that's done with targeted marketing. 239 00:08:30,660 --> 00:08:33,719 So what's the solution? 240 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,249 I think there are better ways that we 241 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:38,129 could devise of matching people 242 00:08:38,130 --> 00:08:40,259 who have needs and wants 243 00:08:40,260 --> 00:08:42,119 with the products and services that could 244 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:43,469 fulfill them. 245 00:08:43,470 --> 00:08:44,459 So I'm going to go through a few 246 00:08:44,460 --> 00:08:46,619 different ideas that I think could be 247 00:08:46,620 --> 00:08:48,179 really useful. 248 00:08:48,180 --> 00:08:50,759 So the first one is inspired by how 249 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:52,529 large organizations go about buying 250 00:08:52,530 --> 00:08:54,209 stuff. What they don't do is they don't 251 00:08:54,210 --> 00:08:56,429 sit around on their computers waiting for 252 00:08:56,430 --> 00:08:57,959 ads to be targeted at them that are 253 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:59,849 relevant to the stuff they want to buy 254 00:08:59,850 --> 00:09:02,129 because they have procurement teams 255 00:09:02,130 --> 00:09:04,649 and the procurement teams have 256 00:09:04,650 --> 00:09:06,959 a job, which is to send out requests 257 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:08,439 for proposals. 258 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,099 A request for proposal will say exactly 259 00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:12,239 what it is that they want. 260 00:09:13,410 --> 00:09:15,089 There are all sorts of criteria that they 261 00:09:15,090 --> 00:09:17,789 have internal policies, 262 00:09:17,790 --> 00:09:20,069 you know, maybe even environmental or 263 00:09:20,070 --> 00:09:21,839 ethical policies that they have. 264 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,610 And then suppliers have to compete 265 00:09:24,630 --> 00:09:26,759 for that tender and they do 266 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:27,929 it in a reverse auction. 267 00:09:27,930 --> 00:09:29,219 So they compete against each other to 268 00:09:29,220 --> 00:09:32,159 provide the service at a good price. 269 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:33,839 So this kind of infrastructure could work 270 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,399 for individuals as well. 271 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,039 There's a service called flu, which is 272 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:39,779 one example where you find something 273 00:09:39,780 --> 00:09:41,699 online that you want to buy, but you 274 00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:42,929 don't like the price. 275 00:09:42,930 --> 00:09:44,669 You copy the URL, paste it into the 276 00:09:44,670 --> 00:09:46,739 service. Within a few hours, you will get 277 00:09:46,740 --> 00:09:49,169 back offers 278 00:09:49,170 --> 00:09:50,609 from companies who want to provide you 279 00:09:50,610 --> 00:09:52,859 with that same product, a cheaper price, 280 00:09:52,860 --> 00:09:54,119 and they'll be competing against each 281 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,759 other in order to deliver 282 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,919 that that offer to you. 283 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,799 So there's a guy called Doc Searles from 284 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,289 Harvard University's Project 285 00:10:04,290 --> 00:10:06,329 VRM, which stands for Vendor Relationship 286 00:10:06,330 --> 00:10:08,759 Management, and he 287 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:10,619 calls this intent casting. 288 00:10:10,620 --> 00:10:12,779 So rather than consumers responding 289 00:10:12,780 --> 00:10:15,359 to the messages that put out 290 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,969 by marketers, it's actually 291 00:10:17,970 --> 00:10:20,099 marketers or suppliers of products and 292 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:22,499 services that are responding to 293 00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:24,779 the intentions of broadcast by 294 00:10:24,780 --> 00:10:25,780 individuals. 295 00:10:27,060 --> 00:10:29,159 But this still leaves the problem that 296 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:30,629 as an individual, I don't have a great 297 00:10:30,630 --> 00:10:32,220 deal of power in the marketplace. 298 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,939 What gives me more power is is being 299 00:10:35,940 --> 00:10:37,809 aggregated with lots of other people. 300 00:10:37,810 --> 00:10:39,119 So this is where collective purchasing 301 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:40,120 comes in. 302 00:10:40,620 --> 00:10:42,149 Essentially, the idea is that by 303 00:10:42,150 --> 00:10:43,710 aggregating demand for 304 00:10:44,750 --> 00:10:47,039 a particular good, that the 305 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,019 an intermediary can give consumers much 306 00:10:49,020 --> 00:10:51,899 more bargaining power with suppliers. 307 00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:53,489 And this works particularly well in areas 308 00:10:53,490 --> 00:10:54,929 like energy. 309 00:10:54,930 --> 00:10:56,639 You have switching schemes that have been 310 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:57,809 run where 311 00:10:58,860 --> 00:11:00,899 intermediaries like charities or local 312 00:11:00,900 --> 00:11:03,929 councils and in some cases even churches 313 00:11:03,930 --> 00:11:06,059 will get people together 314 00:11:06,060 --> 00:11:08,249 and help them switch to an 315 00:11:08,250 --> 00:11:09,659 energy provider that can provide them 316 00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:11,099 with a better service at a lower price 317 00:11:11,100 --> 00:11:13,259 and so on. And the energy providers, even 318 00:11:13,260 --> 00:11:15,899 the big four energy providers in the UK 319 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:18,029 were clamoring to try and offer 320 00:11:18,030 --> 00:11:20,339 the lowest price to 321 00:11:20,340 --> 00:11:21,340 to get the customer. 322 00:11:23,070 --> 00:11:24,899 This isn't a new idea. 323 00:11:24,900 --> 00:11:26,309 It's been around for a long time. 324 00:11:27,510 --> 00:11:29,729 During the Industrial Revolution, workers 325 00:11:29,730 --> 00:11:31,709 cooperatives pooled their labor to 326 00:11:31,710 --> 00:11:33,569 increase the bargaining power that they 327 00:11:33,570 --> 00:11:35,459 had with employers. 328 00:11:35,460 --> 00:11:37,769 But they did the same thing with buying 329 00:11:37,770 --> 00:11:39,419 household goods. 330 00:11:39,420 --> 00:11:41,789 They had collective purchasing. 331 00:11:41,790 --> 00:11:43,139 They called them cooperative wholesale 332 00:11:43,140 --> 00:11:44,039 societies. 333 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,169 And the aim was not just to do bulk 334 00:11:46,170 --> 00:11:48,299 purchases, but to actually organize 335 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:50,039 production and have an influence on how 336 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,529 the goods that they bought were 337 00:11:52,530 --> 00:11:53,530 made and so on. 338 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,579 And so final, the final thing I think 339 00:11:57,580 --> 00:11:59,619 is worth looking at is assurance 340 00:11:59,620 --> 00:12:00,579 contracts. 341 00:12:00,580 --> 00:12:02,679 This is the technical term economists use 342 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:05,049 to describe a Kickstarter style 343 00:12:05,050 --> 00:12:06,099 pledge system. 344 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:08,439 The idea is that you get lots of people 345 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,629 to pledge that if enough other 346 00:12:10,630 --> 00:12:12,489 people do so, they will put their money 347 00:12:12,490 --> 00:12:13,449 into a project. 348 00:12:13,450 --> 00:12:15,309 And then before you even go into 349 00:12:15,310 --> 00:12:17,619 production, you have a proven 350 00:12:17,620 --> 00:12:18,620 demand. 351 00:12:19,150 --> 00:12:20,949 So it's a way of uncovering latent demand 352 00:12:20,950 --> 00:12:22,539 that might not otherwise be revealed 353 00:12:22,540 --> 00:12:24,759 through through people's 354 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:26,199 purchases. 355 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,059 And some people have advocated moving 356 00:12:28,060 --> 00:12:29,949 towards this model for a lot of new 357 00:12:29,950 --> 00:12:32,289 things, and they call this the preorder 358 00:12:32,290 --> 00:12:33,290 economy. 359 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,069 So something I think is important to 360 00:12:36,070 --> 00:12:37,749 notice with all these tools, these 361 00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:40,359 mechanisms is that they're initiated 362 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:41,360 by the buyer. 363 00:12:42,430 --> 00:12:45,529 They they get to set the criteria. 364 00:12:45,530 --> 00:12:47,829 Um, and so only when 365 00:12:47,830 --> 00:12:50,379 a sale actually goes through is there any 366 00:12:50,380 --> 00:12:52,599 direct contact between the 367 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,969 provider and the buyer. 368 00:12:54,970 --> 00:12:56,110 And they can also 369 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,099 be used to turn the tools of surveillance 370 00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:01,629 that are being used right now by 371 00:13:01,630 --> 00:13:03,789 marketers back on the 372 00:13:03,790 --> 00:13:04,749 providers. 373 00:13:04,750 --> 00:13:06,129 So there was a campaign called Move Your 374 00:13:06,130 --> 00:13:08,259 Money in the UK, which was 375 00:13:08,260 --> 00:13:10,479 looking at ethical banking, and it 376 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,599 gathered thousands of people together 377 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,339 who wanted to change their bank to a more 378 00:13:15,340 --> 00:13:16,929 ethical bank, did a whole load of 379 00:13:16,930 --> 00:13:19,299 research into which banks were most 380 00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:21,849 ethical, and then 381 00:13:21,850 --> 00:13:23,919 on a certain date, they all switched to 382 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:25,629 the one which should which had managed to 383 00:13:25,630 --> 00:13:28,569 demonstrate enough that it was ethical. 384 00:13:28,570 --> 00:13:30,099 So there are other criteria that can be 385 00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:31,100 used 386 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,059 other than just a particular product, a 387 00:13:34,060 --> 00:13:35,060 particular price. 388 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,380 So I think the missing piece here is 389 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:40,989 the ability to do all these things in a 390 00:13:40,990 --> 00:13:42,279 decentralized way. 391 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:43,779 At the moment, all of the providers of 392 00:13:43,780 --> 00:13:46,509 these services are individual 393 00:13:46,510 --> 00:13:47,679 organizations. 394 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:49,299 They build their own software. 395 00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:50,679 They have to aggregate demand. 396 00:13:52,210 --> 00:13:54,459 And they they they have to work 397 00:13:54,460 --> 00:13:55,929 in specific industries. 398 00:13:55,930 --> 00:13:58,119 And it's not a model that scales 399 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,699 very well across the whole marketplace. 400 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:02,859 So I think what's 401 00:14:02,860 --> 00:14:04,509 needed is a decentralized way of doing 402 00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:05,510 this. 403 00:14:06,820 --> 00:14:08,829 So the idea would be that your wants and 404 00:14:08,830 --> 00:14:10,989 your needs would be broadcast anonymously 405 00:14:10,990 --> 00:14:12,229 on a decentralized network. 406 00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:13,779 So when I let's say I want to buy a 407 00:14:13,780 --> 00:14:15,999 laptop and I want certain specifications, 408 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,799 I want certain operating system. 409 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,089 There are some companies I don't want to 410 00:14:19,090 --> 00:14:20,439 deal with. I don't trust them, for 411 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:21,579 instance. 412 00:14:21,580 --> 00:14:23,859 So this information can be broadcast to 413 00:14:23,860 --> 00:14:26,019 a decentralized network. 414 00:14:26,020 --> 00:14:28,479 From there, it can be aggregated into 415 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,519 a collective alliance of other people 416 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:31,809 with similar needs. 417 00:14:31,810 --> 00:14:33,969 And then suppliers can 418 00:14:33,970 --> 00:14:36,099 can then crawl that network and look at 419 00:14:36,100 --> 00:14:38,229 all of the different demands that 420 00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:40,149 are being made and bid to meet those 421 00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:42,459 demands. And only then 422 00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:44,049 does my purchase become linked to my 423 00:14:44,050 --> 00:14:46,389 identity if I want to, 424 00:14:46,390 --> 00:14:48,339 when I complete the purchase. 425 00:14:48,340 --> 00:14:50,399 And so I think there are 426 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,089 this is kind of an example of how it 427 00:14:52,090 --> 00:14:53,859 works. Very rough sketch of how it might 428 00:14:53,860 --> 00:14:54,939 work. 429 00:14:54,940 --> 00:14:56,859 There are people working on doing this in 430 00:14:56,860 --> 00:14:58,659 a decentralized way. 431 00:14:58,660 --> 00:14:59,649 One of them is Hayase. 432 00:14:59,650 --> 00:15:01,239 His is Floriane cleared off. 433 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:02,259 I think he's over there. 434 00:15:02,260 --> 00:15:04,359 So if you want to find out how his 435 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:05,649 project is achieving, this is called the 436 00:15:05,650 --> 00:15:07,809 Web of needs, I'd recommend 437 00:15:07,810 --> 00:15:08,810 getting in touch with them. 438 00:15:10,510 --> 00:15:12,579 So the point of all 439 00:15:12,580 --> 00:15:14,649 this is that I think it's a 440 00:15:14,650 --> 00:15:16,749 better way of matching supply. 441 00:15:16,750 --> 00:15:19,149 And demand avoids all of the problems 442 00:15:19,150 --> 00:15:22,359 of the digital advertising 443 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:23,830 industry as it currently stands. 444 00:15:24,940 --> 00:15:27,219 And I think it's, 445 00:15:27,220 --> 00:15:28,220 uh. 446 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,129 A better way of organizing consumer 447 00:15:31,130 --> 00:15:32,130 markets, 448 00:15:33,830 --> 00:15:35,989 so conclude, I'd like to 449 00:15:37,340 --> 00:15:40,009 put this in a broader context. 450 00:15:40,010 --> 00:15:42,019 There's a narrative of consumer 451 00:15:42,020 --> 00:15:44,419 empowerment that kind of stems from 452 00:15:44,420 --> 00:15:46,549 the Enlightenment idea that we're all 453 00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:48,739 individuals with autonomous 454 00:15:48,740 --> 00:15:50,089 decision making power. 455 00:15:50,090 --> 00:15:51,769 We interact with each other on the market 456 00:15:52,820 --> 00:15:55,129 and we make 457 00:15:55,130 --> 00:15:57,049 choices based on the options that are 458 00:15:57,050 --> 00:15:58,819 available to us. 459 00:15:58,820 --> 00:16:01,009 But I think this is is a myth. 460 00:16:01,010 --> 00:16:02,330 It doesn't really work like that. 461 00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:05,269 And when when the Web came along, we 462 00:16:05,270 --> 00:16:07,159 thought that it was going to make it even 463 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:08,899 better for consumers because there'd be 464 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:10,519 even more information available at our 465 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,259 fingertips and we'd have even more 466 00:16:12,260 --> 00:16:14,689 ability to decide. 467 00:16:14,690 --> 00:16:16,039 But actually, it doesn't really work like 468 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,079 that. There's there's so much information 469 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,359 out there. But most of the time 470 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,459 when we're being targeted with 471 00:16:22,460 --> 00:16:24,619 advertisements rather than than going out 472 00:16:24,620 --> 00:16:25,620 and searching it. 473 00:16:26,390 --> 00:16:28,039 And so I think what we need instead is a 474 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:29,830 system that is based on 475 00:16:31,260 --> 00:16:33,919 on transparency from the providers, 476 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:35,299 that's not based on surveillance of 477 00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:36,769 consumers. 478 00:16:36,770 --> 00:16:38,839 I think it's important to have a 479 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,579 system that is not about grabbing the 480 00:16:40,580 --> 00:16:42,799 attention of consumers and 481 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:44,809 trying to convince them to buy stuff, but 482 00:16:44,810 --> 00:16:47,089 it actually is based on their needs 483 00:16:47,090 --> 00:16:49,129 and their desires and their individual 484 00:16:49,130 --> 00:16:51,890 criteria and. 485 00:16:53,910 --> 00:16:56,049 That treats them as individuals 486 00:16:56,050 --> 00:16:58,389 with their own values 487 00:16:58,390 --> 00:17:01,059 rather than just manipulable, 488 00:17:01,060 --> 00:17:02,530 kind of predictable consumers. 489 00:17:03,670 --> 00:17:05,439 So I'm not sure if I've finished ahead of 490 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,509 time, but I'd be 491 00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:08,859 pleased to take your questions. 492 00:17:19,140 --> 00:17:20,789 First, the answer to your question, you 493 00:17:20,790 --> 00:17:22,379 finished well ahead of time. 494 00:17:22,380 --> 00:17:24,449 We've got 12 minutes for 495 00:17:24,450 --> 00:17:26,969 a Q and A or A discussion, 496 00:17:26,970 --> 00:17:29,159 and I see there 497 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,649 is only one person on microphone 498 00:17:31,650 --> 00:17:33,119 one. So go ahead. 499 00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:35,489 OK, thank you for your talk of first 500 00:17:35,490 --> 00:17:36,489 question. 501 00:17:36,490 --> 00:17:38,729 You talked about advertisements that 502 00:17:38,730 --> 00:17:40,499 advertise a product, but what about 503 00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:42,989 advertisements that advertise a brand 504 00:17:42,990 --> 00:17:45,089 ad buy? A car manufacturer says, hey, we 505 00:17:45,090 --> 00:17:47,339 will build great cars, please, like us. 506 00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:50,039 Well, there's an interesting theory that 507 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,319 that kind of advertising should actually 508 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:53,579 be more valuable. 509 00:17:53,580 --> 00:17:56,849 And the argument there is that targeting 510 00:17:56,850 --> 00:17:58,889 allows you to pay a very small amount to 511 00:17:58,890 --> 00:18:00,719 target a very specific person. 512 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,459 And so anyone can do that, right. 513 00:18:02,460 --> 00:18:04,259 You don't need to be a big company with a 514 00:18:04,260 --> 00:18:06,059 with a lot of money to invest and have 515 00:18:06,060 --> 00:18:07,859 been going for a long time to do that. 516 00:18:07,860 --> 00:18:09,959 So actually, rationally, 517 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,189 you might think that a targeted 518 00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:13,169 advertisement signals that you're not 519 00:18:13,170 --> 00:18:15,179 necessarily a very reputable brand, 520 00:18:15,180 --> 00:18:16,709 whereas if you buy a double page spread 521 00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:18,899 in a magazine and to 522 00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:20,429 demonstrate that you that you have that 523 00:18:20,430 --> 00:18:22,919 power to do that, then people might be 524 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:24,859 more interested in it and be more willing 525 00:18:24,860 --> 00:18:27,209 to respect you as a company that 526 00:18:27,210 --> 00:18:28,319 they can do that. So that's one that's 527 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:29,339 one theory. 528 00:18:29,340 --> 00:18:32,009 I think generally branding 529 00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:34,109 advertisements are a different 530 00:18:34,110 --> 00:18:37,049 beast and they don't necessarily require 531 00:18:37,050 --> 00:18:39,179 surveillance because they're 532 00:18:39,180 --> 00:18:40,679 then normally higher profile. 533 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,390 They're on billboards or in magazines. 534 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,619 OK, um, and another thing, 535 00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:47,689 if you actually 536 00:18:47,690 --> 00:18:49,609 next question, it's OK with the 537 00:18:49,610 --> 00:18:51,679 microphone, which would 538 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,509 be number two. 539 00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:55,849 Uh, one question for me for me is 540 00:18:55,850 --> 00:18:58,429 I see a lot of advertising in the Net 541 00:18:58,430 --> 00:19:00,739 advertising something that is 542 00:19:00,740 --> 00:19:02,179 next step for advertising. 543 00:19:02,180 --> 00:19:04,549 So, for example, if you have a free game 544 00:19:04,550 --> 00:19:06,619 on the iPad, it is 545 00:19:06,620 --> 00:19:08,689 enticing for next free game 546 00:19:08,690 --> 00:19:10,789 that maybe get some advertising 547 00:19:10,790 --> 00:19:12,529 for real product. 548 00:19:12,530 --> 00:19:14,599 This is getting meta levels. 549 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,279 Will this ever break down completely? 550 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,579 Because all these levels of advertisings, 551 00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:21,799 I'm not sure I you saying that 552 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,239 you're in a game, you get an 553 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:24,919 advertisement for the next or next free 554 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,199 game, that perhaps monetizing 555 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:28,969 itself by selling another ad for another 556 00:19:28,970 --> 00:19:31,129 free game and at 557 00:19:31,130 --> 00:19:31,819 any time. 558 00:19:31,820 --> 00:19:34,219 Well, I guess that wouldn't require, um, 559 00:19:34,220 --> 00:19:35,719 that wouldn't require surveillance 560 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,999 because we all you need to know is that 561 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,109 the person is playing the game. 562 00:19:39,110 --> 00:19:40,110 Right. 563 00:19:40,750 --> 00:19:42,859 So there aren't as many negative effects, 564 00:19:42,860 --> 00:19:43,759 I think. 565 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:44,899 And that you've already expressed an 566 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:46,130 interest in the game by playing. 567 00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:49,470 So, no, for 568 00:19:50,490 --> 00:19:52,619 now, I'm just more like a comment, 569 00:19:52,620 --> 00:19:53,619 I think. 570 00:19:53,620 --> 00:19:55,769 Um, so I basically 571 00:19:55,770 --> 00:19:58,079 I don't watch ads because I have 572 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,149 an ad blocker and I haven't had 573 00:20:00,150 --> 00:20:02,279 a peep for, like, I don't know, more 574 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,409 than ten years and things 575 00:20:04,410 --> 00:20:06,599 like that. So I really am not, you know, 576 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,849 bear. And then what's really weird 577 00:20:08,850 --> 00:20:11,159 is that sometimes people tell me that, 578 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,019 you know, I've seen this ad and, you 579 00:20:13,020 --> 00:20:14,369 know, have a look. It's really weird. 580 00:20:14,370 --> 00:20:16,109 And I'm like, well, you know, that's a 581 00:20:16,110 --> 00:20:17,129 new product. 582 00:20:17,130 --> 00:20:18,899 And it's actually useful, like, you know, 583 00:20:18,900 --> 00:20:20,189 it's the ad. 584 00:20:20,190 --> 00:20:21,509 But I'm trying to say that they're not 585 00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:23,249 pushing ad on me. 586 00:20:23,250 --> 00:20:25,229 It's like it's actually valuable 587 00:20:25,230 --> 00:20:27,329 information, which I know sounds very 588 00:20:27,330 --> 00:20:29,549 strange. But so what I'm trying to say 589 00:20:29,550 --> 00:20:31,649 is that if we turn this around, which 590 00:20:31,650 --> 00:20:33,479 is what you're trying to propose, I 591 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,639 think, is that there 592 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,379 will be a lot I mean, there will be an 593 00:20:37,380 --> 00:20:39,359 information flow that will be missing. 594 00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:40,829 I mean, I personally thought that that 595 00:20:40,830 --> 00:20:43,949 information flow is completely useless 596 00:20:43,950 --> 00:20:46,229 information, but it turns out that 597 00:20:46,230 --> 00:20:48,119 I have to face the fact that it's not 598 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:49,889 completely useless. 599 00:20:49,890 --> 00:20:51,839 And so what do you say to that? 600 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,969 So if the question is about, 601 00:20:53,970 --> 00:20:56,039 you know, without ads, how do we 602 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,079 discover new products that we weren't 603 00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:59,969 aware of? If it's completely based on our 604 00:20:59,970 --> 00:21:01,919 own initiative to go and make the 605 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,779 requests, then we might miss out on 606 00:21:03,780 --> 00:21:04,949 important opportunity. I think that's 607 00:21:04,950 --> 00:21:05,909 right. 608 00:21:05,910 --> 00:21:08,099 But I think there are other models to 609 00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:09,749 discover, products that you might want 610 00:21:09,750 --> 00:21:12,119 and need. Um, there are 611 00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:14,429 obvious to write blogs about particular 612 00:21:14,430 --> 00:21:15,599 things that are great. 613 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,159 And they look at all the new products 614 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:18,659 that are coming out and that's an 615 00:21:18,660 --> 00:21:19,679 impartial source. 616 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,349 It's not coming from the seller. 617 00:21:22,350 --> 00:21:23,729 And so I think you should there's always 618 00:21:23,730 --> 00:21:25,529 more reason to trust an impartial source 619 00:21:25,530 --> 00:21:27,269 than anything that comes from from the 620 00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:28,049 seller. 621 00:21:28,050 --> 00:21:29,759 But I think it's interesting to consider 622 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,099 that. Could you just 623 00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:33,690 one question for the person, please. 624 00:21:35,130 --> 00:21:37,439 And the next question's right 625 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,449 behind you on microphone for as well. 626 00:21:39,450 --> 00:21:40,649 OK, thank you. 627 00:21:40,650 --> 00:21:42,749 Um, I'm thinking of, 628 00:21:42,750 --> 00:21:45,239 uh, some experiment, uh, 629 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,579 which was about Cuffy were to ask 630 00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:49,979 some consumers what they want 631 00:21:49,980 --> 00:21:52,109 and they all said they want some, 632 00:21:52,110 --> 00:21:54,539 uh, which was black 633 00:21:54,540 --> 00:21:55,889 and strong coffee. 634 00:21:55,890 --> 00:21:58,619 And when they tasted or tested 635 00:21:58,620 --> 00:22:00,839 different coverage, they all wanted some 636 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,689 milky soft coffee. 637 00:22:03,690 --> 00:22:05,849 So when companies look 638 00:22:05,850 --> 00:22:07,979 at that, do you think they will 639 00:22:07,980 --> 00:22:10,109 trust the opinion 640 00:22:10,110 --> 00:22:12,599 of the customers when they see. 641 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,849 Well, they don't really know 642 00:22:14,850 --> 00:22:16,169 what they want. 643 00:22:16,170 --> 00:22:17,269 Mm hmm. 644 00:22:17,270 --> 00:22:19,439 I think yeah, I think it's true that, 645 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,269 as I said, we don't really know what we 646 00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:22,649 really want. We usually make bad 647 00:22:22,650 --> 00:22:24,959 decisions and we usually make suboptimal 648 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,189 decisions. 649 00:22:26,190 --> 00:22:28,349 But part of that is about 650 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,499 tools that allow me to be aware of my own 651 00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:33,629 inconsistencies, that allow me to 652 00:22:33,630 --> 00:22:35,939 understand what I really want 653 00:22:35,940 --> 00:22:37,469 and when that differs from what I think I 654 00:22:37,470 --> 00:22:38,639 want. 655 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,499 It's another thing to say that that's a 656 00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:41,700 justification for 657 00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:44,759 leaving all this infrastructure in the 658 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,319 hands of of those who are trying to 659 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,089 convince me to buy stuff, especially if 660 00:22:48,090 --> 00:22:49,829 they if I think that I like a certain 661 00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:51,659 thing, but my actions reveal I like 662 00:22:51,660 --> 00:22:53,099 something else and I might want to change 663 00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:55,169 that. Let's say it's I think I 664 00:22:55,170 --> 00:22:56,339 want to quit smoking. 665 00:22:56,340 --> 00:22:58,349 Right. I know that I want to quit 666 00:22:58,350 --> 00:22:59,879 smoking, but I keep on smoking. 667 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:01,439 That doesn't mean that I actually do like 668 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,599 cigarets. It's a conflict between my 669 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,849 higher decision making power and my my 670 00:23:05,850 --> 00:23:07,799 my base decision making. 671 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,349 OK, um, next one is number three. 672 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,939 Thank you very much for the great talk. 673 00:23:14,940 --> 00:23:17,429 If more and more collectives come around 674 00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:19,529 and they'll become a big 675 00:23:19,530 --> 00:23:21,779 player in the network that you showed 676 00:23:21,780 --> 00:23:23,279 in the beginning. 677 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,349 And I'm pretty sure that industry will 678 00:23:25,350 --> 00:23:27,179 come up with a smart business model and 679 00:23:27,180 --> 00:23:29,339 try to involve them in all their you know 680 00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:32,489 what they do have you 681 00:23:32,490 --> 00:23:34,889 thoughts about what they'll 682 00:23:34,890 --> 00:23:37,139 come up with and what we should be 683 00:23:37,140 --> 00:23:40,019 afraid of and be prepared for. 684 00:23:40,020 --> 00:23:42,389 Yeah, yeah. I think, um, I think that 685 00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:44,129 they see that and there's a positive 686 00:23:44,130 --> 00:23:46,349 opportunity for sellers, 687 00:23:46,350 --> 00:23:48,119 at least I think that a lot of the ad 688 00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:50,309 industry will, if this were to happen 689 00:23:50,310 --> 00:23:52,019 with a lot of the industry, would die 690 00:23:52,020 --> 00:23:54,119 off. But I think from the from the seller 691 00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:56,129 perspective, there's a there's a huge 692 00:23:56,130 --> 00:23:57,779 advantage. If you don't have to go and 693 00:23:57,780 --> 00:23:59,459 acquire consumers, you don't have to 694 00:23:59,460 --> 00:24:00,900 spend money on advertising anymore. 695 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:02,909 And that's great. 696 00:24:02,910 --> 00:24:05,369 Um, if I mean, if the energy 697 00:24:05,370 --> 00:24:07,469 switching program was was what 698 00:24:07,470 --> 00:24:09,449 everyone used rather than just sort of 10 699 00:24:09,450 --> 00:24:11,159 percent of people using it, then you 700 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,139 could have an energy company that had no 701 00:24:13,140 --> 00:24:16,109 marketing budget but that exclusively. 702 00:24:16,110 --> 00:24:17,519 So the the would be lower and they'd 703 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,739 always be winning the 704 00:24:19,740 --> 00:24:21,179 customers, the collectives. 705 00:24:21,180 --> 00:24:23,339 So I think there's a huge opportunity for 706 00:24:23,340 --> 00:24:25,409 businesses to use 707 00:24:25,410 --> 00:24:27,629 this model and therefore not have to go 708 00:24:27,630 --> 00:24:29,039 in for the whole digital advertising 709 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,040 model. 710 00:24:30,650 --> 00:24:32,299 Next, we have a question from the 711 00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:34,399 Internet, so 712 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,499 what do you think about consumer 713 00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:38,869 generated wish-List approaches? 714 00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:40,999 Are those a good model? 715 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,129 Yeah, that's a that's a decent model. 716 00:24:43,130 --> 00:24:45,229 Um, another Amazon has that. 717 00:24:45,230 --> 00:24:47,359 Um, and yeah, I think 718 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:48,679 it's a good idea. The problem at the 719 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:49,999 moment is it's centralized. 720 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,189 So, um, if 721 00:24:52,190 --> 00:24:54,589 I have a wishlist model with a particular 722 00:24:54,590 --> 00:24:57,199 vendor, then I only get 723 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:58,819 offers from that vendor. 724 00:24:58,820 --> 00:25:01,129 Um, and so another service 725 00:25:01,130 --> 00:25:03,259 that could do that, um, and, you 726 00:25:03,260 --> 00:25:05,179 know, that could match my wishes with 727 00:25:05,180 --> 00:25:07,259 similar people and aggregating together 728 00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:08,260 I think then getting. 729 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,679 Next one was on number one. 730 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,219 So you talked about collective 731 00:25:15,220 --> 00:25:17,679 purchasing, which is now popular for 732 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:18,939 energy markets. 733 00:25:18,940 --> 00:25:20,769 You're probably a bit too young for it. 734 00:25:20,770 --> 00:25:23,219 But like when we hit the new economy in 735 00:25:23,220 --> 00:25:25,539 1999 and 2000, 736 00:25:25,540 --> 00:25:27,519 there was a lot of collective purchasing 737 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,829 for consumer goods like 738 00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:31,599 cameras. So basically it worked. 739 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,489 Some broker was collecting the requests 740 00:25:33,490 --> 00:25:35,619 and whenever they had an order for like 741 00:25:35,620 --> 00:25:37,749 10 cameras, they would send it out. 742 00:25:37,750 --> 00:25:39,999 But that magically vanished. 743 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,919 So did you do any comparison? 744 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,839 What went wrong there or why did it 745 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,759 vanish and will it vanish again? 746 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,919 Or what did they do wrong in those 747 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:48,939 years? 748 00:25:48,940 --> 00:25:50,919 I'm not sure it's a good question. 749 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,529 Um, I think where it has been successful, 750 00:25:53,530 --> 00:25:55,599 it's been in markets that are more 751 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,089 like utilities than one of purchases 752 00:25:58,090 --> 00:26:00,159 because people have to pay their energy 753 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,569 bills or they have to use their bank 754 00:26:02,570 --> 00:26:04,539 year in, year out. 755 00:26:04,540 --> 00:26:06,999 And so if you if you 756 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,170 have to do that, it's kind of 757 00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:10,719 you're confronted with that decision so 758 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,639 many times that at some point you think, 759 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:13,779 well, maybe I should do this in a more 760 00:26:13,780 --> 00:26:15,669 efficient way, whereas if you buy a 761 00:26:15,670 --> 00:26:17,859 camera, you might not 762 00:26:17,860 --> 00:26:20,199 you might not have to consider 763 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,269 how you make the decision so many times 764 00:26:22,270 --> 00:26:24,069 so people might not know about them. 765 00:26:24,070 --> 00:26:25,239 I think it's hard for that kind of 766 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:26,979 service to get a foothold. 767 00:26:26,980 --> 00:26:28,209 And also there's a problem of instant 768 00:26:28,210 --> 00:26:29,289 gratification. 769 00:26:29,290 --> 00:26:30,879 You can go and buy the camera straight 770 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,079 away rather than having to wait for 771 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,080 enough other people. 772 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,109 But I think, you know, people pledge 773 00:26:36,110 --> 00:26:38,029 money on Kickstarter for stuff, you know, 774 00:26:38,030 --> 00:26:40,389 90 percent of the stuff and maybe more 775 00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:42,909 on Kickstarter doesn't get funded, 776 00:26:42,910 --> 00:26:44,979 but people still put 777 00:26:44,980 --> 00:26:46,929 their money down just in case. 778 00:26:46,930 --> 00:26:48,699 So I think those could grow. 779 00:26:50,430 --> 00:26:52,439 Next question is on microphone number 780 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,779 two, and I don't know whether 781 00:26:54,780 --> 00:26:56,939 we'll have enough time to answer all 782 00:26:56,940 --> 00:26:59,909 questions standing there, but go ahead. 783 00:26:59,910 --> 00:27:02,009 OK, then I'll try to make it 784 00:27:02,010 --> 00:27:04,499 quick. So I think a lot about 785 00:27:04,500 --> 00:27:06,149 empowering consumers. 786 00:27:06,150 --> 00:27:08,399 And you talked about more 787 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,400 about the 788 00:27:10,470 --> 00:27:12,719 functional and qualitative set 789 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,819 of preference consumers may have 790 00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:16,229 when purchasing a product. 791 00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:18,509 But there's also the dimension of 792 00:27:18,510 --> 00:27:20,879 ethical, moral and political values 793 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,039 and views that we also 794 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,589 may wish to to express by purchasing. 795 00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:27,749 And of course, once you solve 796 00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:28,829 the problem of 797 00:27:30,330 --> 00:27:32,099 combining the purchasing power of 798 00:27:32,100 --> 00:27:33,329 consumers, that's great. 799 00:27:33,330 --> 00:27:34,829 But I wonder if you've thought about more 800 00:27:34,830 --> 00:27:37,949 about creating transparency 801 00:27:37,950 --> 00:27:39,119 on the supply side. 802 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:41,459 So as long as marketers or companies 803 00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:43,619 can create an image that we 804 00:27:43,620 --> 00:27:45,749 are making the world a better place by, 805 00:27:45,750 --> 00:27:48,149 you know, that they have very human 806 00:27:48,150 --> 00:27:50,339 rights saving 807 00:27:50,340 --> 00:27:51,299 production process. 808 00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:53,399 So how can you really 809 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,769 solve the the issue of 810 00:27:55,770 --> 00:27:57,959 information asymmetry between 811 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,819 what the consumer knows and what maybe 812 00:28:00,820 --> 00:28:03,059 a group of people believe 813 00:28:03,060 --> 00:28:03,719 they know? 814 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,339 I absolutely agree, and I think there are 815 00:28:05,340 --> 00:28:06,269 people working on that. 816 00:28:06,270 --> 00:28:08,699 So there's things like open product data, 817 00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:10,769 open supply chains, all that kind 818 00:28:10,770 --> 00:28:11,819 of stuff. 819 00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:13,319 And some companies are making efforts to 820 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:14,369 do that. 821 00:28:14,370 --> 00:28:16,619 But I agree that there's there's a lot of 822 00:28:16,620 --> 00:28:18,629 asymmetry and it's a very opaque at the 823 00:28:18,630 --> 00:28:20,819 moment. Um, I think one model 824 00:28:20,820 --> 00:28:23,309 you could have would be OK, um, 825 00:28:23,310 --> 00:28:24,989 let's only deal with the ones that say 826 00:28:24,990 --> 00:28:27,359 what they do, um, and provide 827 00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:28,269 evidence for it. 828 00:28:28,270 --> 00:28:30,359 Um, and so 829 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:31,649 the consumer might take a hit because 830 00:28:31,650 --> 00:28:33,119 they might miss out on stuff, other stuff 831 00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:35,279 that is being produced in an ethical 832 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,409 way, but it provides an incentive 833 00:28:37,410 --> 00:28:39,179 for the suppliers to actually publish 834 00:28:39,180 --> 00:28:40,199 that information. 835 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,029 Right now there's just not enough demand 836 00:28:42,030 --> 00:28:43,979 for it. But I think in future it'd be 837 00:28:43,980 --> 00:28:45,989 great if there was and this this campaign 838 00:28:45,990 --> 00:28:47,879 I mentioned to move your money campaign, 839 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,289 they created a lot of that information 840 00:28:49,290 --> 00:28:51,179 themselves by going out and doing their 841 00:28:51,180 --> 00:28:53,249 own investigations into how the banks 842 00:28:53,250 --> 00:28:54,569 were using their own money for 843 00:28:54,570 --> 00:28:55,570 investments. 844 00:28:57,570 --> 00:28:59,730 Next on microphone for 845 00:29:01,540 --> 00:29:03,749 I'm going to be a bit provocative, so 846 00:29:03,750 --> 00:29:06,239 I'm wondering whether you've seen 847 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:07,739 any of those business models you 848 00:29:07,740 --> 00:29:09,849 described that were successful 849 00:29:09,850 --> 00:29:11,969 on a large scale because 850 00:29:11,970 --> 00:29:14,669 what you describe is intent, casting the 851 00:29:14,670 --> 00:29:16,319 collective consumer demand. 852 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:17,320 It's been tried. 853 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,999 I mean, and the role has been taken 854 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,829 over by social networks. 855 00:29:22,830 --> 00:29:24,809 Group buying was tried by Groupon and 856 00:29:24,810 --> 00:29:27,389 became a total perversion to push 857 00:29:27,390 --> 00:29:30,119 model and assurance contracts. 858 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:31,769 Kickstarter is successful. 859 00:29:31,770 --> 00:29:33,929 It is because it's the destination site 860 00:29:33,930 --> 00:29:36,149 in itself, because there's a strong 861 00:29:36,150 --> 00:29:38,429 editorial control on what is allowed 862 00:29:38,430 --> 00:29:39,839 on Kickstarter or not. 863 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,999 So, I mean, I'm just wondering, have 864 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,289 you answered the question already 865 00:29:43,290 --> 00:29:45,749 yourself? Consumers are lazy, 866 00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:48,329 so there needs to I mean, 867 00:29:48,330 --> 00:29:50,909 the role for intermediaries 868 00:29:50,910 --> 00:29:53,669 will we will still need 869 00:29:53,670 --> 00:29:55,389 for intermediaries. 870 00:29:55,390 --> 00:29:57,749 Yeah, I think that for now, 871 00:29:57,750 --> 00:29:58,709 yes. 872 00:29:58,710 --> 00:30:01,079 Intermediaries need to be recognized 873 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:02,080 brands in themselves. 874 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,699 There are some in the UK that have to do 875 00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:07,409 a lot of spend a lot of money marketing 876 00:30:07,410 --> 00:30:09,599 themselves and demonstrate to consumers 877 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,609 that that they exist and that what that 878 00:30:11,610 --> 00:30:12,610 value they provide. 879 00:30:13,590 --> 00:30:15,749 So I think for now they're 880 00:30:15,750 --> 00:30:18,089 most likely to be centralized. 881 00:30:18,090 --> 00:30:20,129 But I hope that in future they won't be. 882 00:30:20,130 --> 00:30:22,469 And I think for this model to scale 883 00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:24,329 more widely, I think that it does need to 884 00:30:24,330 --> 00:30:26,129 be decentralized. 885 00:30:26,130 --> 00:30:28,229 Well, unfortunately, when you ran 886 00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:30,389 out of time, maybe 887 00:30:30,390 --> 00:30:32,759 you find another room to continue 888 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,799 this discussion. 889 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,019 Thank you for your talk and for 890 00:30:37,020 --> 00:30:38,020 the Kunie.