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If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/402 Thanks! 1 00:00:14,710 --> 00:00:15,710 Thank you. 2 00:00:16,329 --> 00:00:18,879 And we are the 31st 3 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,309 girls Congress and this bigger 4 00:00:21,310 --> 00:00:23,489 and better than ever, according to the 5 00:00:23,490 --> 00:00:25,839 world, over about 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:27,549 4000 tickets have been sold. 7 00:00:27,550 --> 00:00:29,289 And we all know the world is never wrong 8 00:00:29,290 --> 00:00:30,290 about anything. 9 00:00:33,430 --> 00:00:36,669 There have been great presentations about 10 00:00:36,670 --> 00:00:38,859 very interesting discoveries, new 11 00:00:38,860 --> 00:00:41,589 flaws in software protocols. 12 00:00:41,590 --> 00:00:44,259 There were seven breaches are 13 00:00:44,260 --> 00:00:45,310 quite astounding. 14 00:00:46,630 --> 00:00:48,819 So far, about 31 years we've 15 00:00:48,820 --> 00:00:51,100 been breaking all the things 16 00:00:53,230 --> 00:00:55,899 and and 17 00:00:55,900 --> 00:00:57,699 have been providing proof that things are 18 00:00:57,700 --> 00:00:58,700 broken. 19 00:01:00,100 --> 00:01:02,229 Nonetheless, it seems that we are having 20 00:01:02,230 --> 00:01:04,598 for any future in which are more, more 21 00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:06,700 a lot more things that can be broken. 22 00:01:09,410 --> 00:01:10,930 I think about the Internet of Things 23 00:01:12,130 --> 00:01:14,319 and the idea of having 24 00:01:14,320 --> 00:01:16,389 literally billions of devices on 25 00:01:16,390 --> 00:01:18,819 the planet with 26 00:01:18,820 --> 00:01:20,260 no data from the. 27 00:01:22,070 --> 00:01:23,070 Basically, 28 00:01:24,170 --> 00:01:26,059 one of the premises of what I we'll be 29 00:01:26,060 --> 00:01:28,489 talking about is that 30 00:01:28,490 --> 00:01:30,769 breaking stuff to show that you should 31 00:01:30,770 --> 00:01:33,619 make stuff less breakable 32 00:01:33,620 --> 00:01:36,379 does not scale terribly well. 33 00:01:36,380 --> 00:01:38,869 And by in itself, 34 00:01:38,870 --> 00:01:40,969 this Congress is an illustration of 35 00:01:40,970 --> 00:01:41,970 of that problem. 36 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,249 The IT industry has never 37 00:01:46,250 --> 00:01:48,349 built in security, design security 38 00:01:48,350 --> 00:01:49,309 in its products. 39 00:01:49,310 --> 00:01:51,829 It just has never prevented hackers 40 00:01:51,830 --> 00:01:52,849 from testing it in. 41 00:01:54,170 --> 00:01:55,489 Well, testing it afterwards 42 00:01:56,900 --> 00:01:58,310 is not really tenable. 43 00:02:00,070 --> 00:02:02,229 And a few more 44 00:02:02,230 --> 00:02:04,060 little problems, yeah, 45 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,209 which is what we call 46 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,739 our ethics 47 00:02:11,740 --> 00:02:13,239 and the extent to which we live up to 48 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:14,240 that. 49 00:02:14,590 --> 00:02:16,659 I'm not saying that 50 00:02:16,660 --> 00:02:19,389 the current sad state of affairs 51 00:02:19,390 --> 00:02:21,579 in information security is our 52 00:02:21,580 --> 00:02:22,959 fault. 53 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,180 To the contrary, what? 54 00:02:26,670 --> 00:02:29,009 One of her premises is that 55 00:02:29,010 --> 00:02:30,629 the hacker communities have a set of 56 00:02:30,630 --> 00:02:33,569 flameouts that 57 00:02:33,570 --> 00:02:35,999 have made us achieve 58 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,289 less than we could have 59 00:02:38,610 --> 00:02:41,219 by not living up to our own ethics, 60 00:02:41,220 --> 00:02:43,769 the six tenets of the hacker ethic 61 00:02:43,770 --> 00:02:45,929 and even more important, by 62 00:02:45,930 --> 00:02:47,300 not being excellent to each other. 63 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:51,080 Roughly. 64 00:02:52,810 --> 00:02:53,810 The six, 65 00:02:55,270 --> 00:02:57,099 the notion I'll be talking about this 66 00:02:58,390 --> 00:03:01,419 as being politically indifferent, 67 00:03:01,420 --> 00:03:02,420 as being 68 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:04,539 too political. 69 00:03:07,030 --> 00:03:08,030 And. 70 00:03:10,980 --> 00:03:11,980 There we go. 71 00:03:13,470 --> 00:03:15,539 It's not being too 72 00:03:15,540 --> 00:03:17,699 focused or not 73 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:20,849 focused enough on usability, usability 74 00:03:20,850 --> 00:03:22,259 as being a bit tribal, 75 00:03:24,210 --> 00:03:26,219 as having too many rock stars and not 76 00:03:26,220 --> 00:03:27,220 enough heroes. 77 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,939 And so on, but first of all, 78 00:03:32,940 --> 00:03:34,130 the political indifference, 79 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,269 a lot of times people say, 80 00:03:39,270 --> 00:03:41,729 well, I just heck, 81 00:03:41,730 --> 00:03:42,899 I don't do politics 82 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,440 at the same time, that 83 00:03:47,700 --> 00:03:50,279 it kind of denies the very fact that 84 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,009 even if you just write free software, 85 00:03:53,010 --> 00:03:54,960 that is a political act, 86 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,859 if only because you then claim 87 00:03:58,860 --> 00:04:00,359 that the current system of copyright is 88 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:01,360 broken. 89 00:04:02,970 --> 00:04:05,639 If you design a new centralized 90 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,709 infrastructure, that's also a 91 00:04:07,710 --> 00:04:10,019 political act because it allows 92 00:04:10,020 --> 00:04:12,749 for more mass surveillance 93 00:04:12,750 --> 00:04:14,430 and more data collection about this. 94 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,149 Not writing usable software is also 95 00:04:28,150 --> 00:04:30,279 a choice about who will be using your 96 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:31,280 software. 97 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,009 The opposite is. 98 00:04:42,010 --> 00:04:43,029 Being too political. 99 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,679 Very good example of this is the 100 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,749 recent discussion about the 101 00:04:50,750 --> 00:04:52,070 funding of the project. 102 00:04:54,630 --> 00:04:56,999 People were disputing or let's say 103 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,459 accusing the Tor project of being stooges 104 00:04:59,460 --> 00:05:01,319 of the United States government because 105 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:02,789 the United States government is funding 106 00:05:02,790 --> 00:05:03,790 the Tor project, 107 00:05:06,090 --> 00:05:08,159 which is a bit 108 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,099 unfair, because 109 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:13,289 if no one will be funding the project, 110 00:05:13,290 --> 00:05:15,389 there will be no talk 111 00:05:15,390 --> 00:05:16,859 around. 112 00:05:16,860 --> 00:05:18,959 It is a massive project, requires lots 113 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,029 of investment and apparently 114 00:05:21,030 --> 00:05:22,439 nobody else but the United States 115 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:23,969 government was interested in funding this 116 00:05:23,970 --> 00:05:24,970 stuff. 117 00:05:25,650 --> 00:05:27,329 And yet we're talking about funding 118 00:05:27,330 --> 00:05:28,829 projects. 119 00:05:28,830 --> 00:05:30,899 It's a lot more interesting to look 120 00:05:30,900 --> 00:05:33,119 into who is being 121 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,279 found funding, go to what to do what, 122 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:37,799 instead of assuming that the funding 123 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,839 is that that the 124 00:05:41,130 --> 00:05:43,439 origins of the money already indicate 125 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:44,490 a certain intent. 126 00:05:52,390 --> 00:05:54,549 And in the case of the project, 127 00:05:54,550 --> 00:05:57,639 there are two approaches to that. 128 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,799 I start auditing the talk of this 129 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:00,849 code. 130 00:06:00,850 --> 00:06:03,189 It's I'm not sure the developers would 131 00:06:03,190 --> 00:06:05,529 very much welcome and find 132 00:06:05,530 --> 00:06:06,530 any problems in there 133 00:06:07,780 --> 00:06:09,459 or find a different way funding the top 134 00:06:09,460 --> 00:06:10,460 projects. 135 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,379 That doesn't mean you can criticize the 136 00:06:13,380 --> 00:06:15,449 funding model, but it's more helpful 137 00:06:15,450 --> 00:06:16,739 if you do at least one of the two other 138 00:06:16,740 --> 00:06:17,740 things as well. 139 00:06:19,660 --> 00:06:21,909 And that doesn't mean that there are more 140 00:06:21,910 --> 00:06:24,729 questions about how 141 00:06:24,730 --> 00:06:26,169 we engage with the state. 142 00:06:29,350 --> 00:06:31,629 But I'd like to see 143 00:06:31,630 --> 00:06:33,579 more a nuanced approach to discussions 144 00:06:33,580 --> 00:06:35,529 about how we engage the states on the one 145 00:06:35,530 --> 00:06:36,530 hand. 146 00:06:37,930 --> 00:06:40,269 It wouldn't be bad to take geographical 147 00:06:40,270 --> 00:06:41,559 differences into account. 148 00:06:42,810 --> 00:06:45,089 If you only look at your 149 00:06:45,090 --> 00:06:47,909 fellow members of this community 150 00:06:47,910 --> 00:06:50,069 through the prism of how 151 00:06:50,070 --> 00:06:52,559 the United States government functions, 152 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:54,899 especially the police forces 153 00:06:54,900 --> 00:06:57,539 or with the traumas of 154 00:06:57,540 --> 00:06:59,820 the oppression by the Stasi in 155 00:07:00,840 --> 00:07:03,420 East Germany and before the Nazis, 156 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:07,709 and we are having a conversation with 157 00:07:07,710 --> 00:07:09,509 people with a different history than 158 00:07:09,510 --> 00:07:10,510 that. 159 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:12,480 That's not entirely fair either. 160 00:07:13,550 --> 00:07:14,550 On the other hand, 161 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,489 a lot of the fellow Europeans of the 162 00:07:17,490 --> 00:07:19,769 Germans could do a lot worse and 163 00:07:19,770 --> 00:07:22,229 learn the hard lessons learned in 164 00:07:22,230 --> 00:07:24,299 Germany and 165 00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:25,799 the hard lessons being learned in the 166 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,049 United States, which in 167 00:07:28,050 --> 00:07:29,849 my book effectively is a police state 168 00:07:29,850 --> 00:07:30,850 right now. 169 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,669 But just claiming that anyone will engage 170 00:07:35,670 --> 00:07:38,009 with the government automatically 171 00:07:38,010 --> 00:07:40,769 is licking the jackboot 172 00:07:40,770 --> 00:07:41,770 of the thugs 173 00:07:42,870 --> 00:07:45,019 just doesn't work that way. 174 00:07:56,010 --> 00:07:57,010 On top of that, 175 00:07:58,890 --> 00:08:01,349 there's a lot of discussion about 176 00:08:01,350 --> 00:08:03,719 that, let's assume 177 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,699 that you want to improve democracy and 178 00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:07,949 the rule of law or at least 179 00:08:07,950 --> 00:08:08,950 personal freedoms. 180 00:08:10,620 --> 00:08:13,619 There's a lot of unnecessary 181 00:08:13,620 --> 00:08:16,259 discussions about the validity of tactics 182 00:08:16,260 --> 00:08:17,969 of whether people are being radical 183 00:08:17,970 --> 00:08:20,339 enough, being 184 00:08:20,340 --> 00:08:22,649 radicalized, fantastic, because 185 00:08:22,650 --> 00:08:24,029 the more radical people are, 186 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,359 the more effective the moderates can be 187 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,519 to take positions they otherwise cannot 188 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:30,520 take. 189 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,288 But if you only have radicals, you won't 190 00:08:34,289 --> 00:08:35,289 have any morals left. 191 00:08:36,890 --> 00:08:39,139 So you need both in terms of 192 00:08:39,140 --> 00:08:41,689 where you are on the spectrum, there 193 00:08:41,690 --> 00:08:43,879 may be more common values between 194 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:45,949 the moderates and the radicals than they 195 00:08:45,950 --> 00:08:47,599 probably realize, and there is value in 196 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,149 cooperating or at least appreciating 197 00:08:50,150 --> 00:08:51,289 the differences because 198 00:08:52,580 --> 00:08:54,079 the different parts of the spectrum help 199 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:55,080 each other. 200 00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:58,979 That's in substance, but also on tactics 201 00:08:58,980 --> 00:09:01,969 should not be forgotten that 202 00:09:01,970 --> 00:09:04,249 the data retention directive, 203 00:09:04,250 --> 00:09:06,949 the victory over that was achieved 204 00:09:06,950 --> 00:09:09,019 by strategic litigation, 205 00:09:09,020 --> 00:09:11,269 not by street protests, 206 00:09:11,270 --> 00:09:13,369 not by direct action, 207 00:09:13,370 --> 00:09:14,809 not by Verizon Kouf. 208 00:09:15,820 --> 00:09:17,949 It was just utterly the 209 00:09:17,950 --> 00:09:20,079 one of the most bizarre ways of 210 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,209 activism you can have, 211 00:09:22,210 --> 00:09:24,579 just spewing hacking 212 00:09:24,580 --> 00:09:26,529 the law, basically. 213 00:09:26,530 --> 00:09:27,530 On the other hand, 214 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,729 we could never have defeated ACTA 215 00:09:32,350 --> 00:09:34,089 even without a lobby in Brussels, which 216 00:09:34,090 --> 00:09:36,519 was an interesting collaboration 217 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,129 across various spectrums. 218 00:09:39,130 --> 00:09:41,379 But we could not have done that without 219 00:09:41,380 --> 00:09:43,509 Polish football supporters 220 00:09:43,510 --> 00:09:45,219 doing street protests in the freezing 221 00:09:45,220 --> 00:09:46,220 cold outside, 222 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,689 even though a good deal of those football 223 00:09:49,690 --> 00:09:52,179 supporters might 224 00:09:52,180 --> 00:09:54,249 be uncomfortably far to 225 00:09:54,250 --> 00:09:56,499 the right end of the political spectrum. 226 00:09:56,500 --> 00:09:59,229 I still think they deserve a statue 227 00:09:59,230 --> 00:10:00,230 for stopping ACTA. 228 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:11,240 So basically. 229 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:16,779 The idea of that others have to stop 230 00:10:16,780 --> 00:10:18,729 liking what you don't like in terms of 231 00:10:18,730 --> 00:10:20,979 substance or in tactics 232 00:10:20,980 --> 00:10:22,330 is not very productive. 233 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,619 And then this is the notion which 234 00:10:27,620 --> 00:10:29,029 I forgot, the main tradition is 235 00:10:30,230 --> 00:10:31,909 we have not been terribly good at 236 00:10:31,910 --> 00:10:32,910 communicating 237 00:10:34,130 --> 00:10:36,439 a lot of basic several basic concepts 238 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:37,440 in computing 239 00:10:38,650 --> 00:10:39,830 just to illustrate that. 240 00:10:42,350 --> 00:10:44,569 Teenagers nowadays get computer science 241 00:10:44,570 --> 00:10:47,029 and secondary education in the form of 242 00:10:47,030 --> 00:10:49,429 learning the ropes of Microsoft Office 243 00:10:49,430 --> 00:10:50,660 2013. 244 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,639 This probably is not the best way 245 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:55,799 to understand computers. 246 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,580 But that does reflect a 247 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,849 wider understanding of society, 248 00:11:09,850 --> 00:11:12,009 of computers, as of computer 249 00:11:12,010 --> 00:11:14,649 systems, as magic black boxes, 250 00:11:14,650 --> 00:11:16,929 which you cannot possibly understand 251 00:11:16,930 --> 00:11:19,269 and isn't even worth to look into 252 00:11:19,270 --> 00:11:21,369 and to teach other people what 253 00:11:21,370 --> 00:11:22,749 I mean. 254 00:11:22,750 --> 00:11:25,479 Alan Turing has died about 50 years ago, 255 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,509 and we still have not find an idiom 256 00:11:28,510 --> 00:11:30,699 or a language to actually explain 257 00:11:30,700 --> 00:11:33,489 what general-purpose computing means to 258 00:11:33,490 --> 00:11:33,669 me. 259 00:11:33,670 --> 00:11:36,279 And mortal's for normal people, 260 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,529 your parents, your neighbors, 261 00:11:38,530 --> 00:11:39,819 your plumber. 262 00:11:39,820 --> 00:11:40,820 I don't care. 263 00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:44,659 Everyone has a mental model of the car 264 00:11:44,660 --> 00:11:46,599 is about the internal combustion engine. 265 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:47,769 Thus, to some extent, 266 00:11:48,970 --> 00:11:51,669 a lot of people don't even have that 267 00:11:51,670 --> 00:11:54,099 internal model of this mental 268 00:11:54,100 --> 00:11:56,259 idea of the computer does 269 00:11:56,260 --> 00:11:58,699 is just a magic thing and you push 270 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:00,969 buttons on it in a certain pattern 271 00:12:00,970 --> 00:12:02,049 and something happens. 272 00:12:05,790 --> 00:12:06,870 Are concepts of 273 00:12:08,850 --> 00:12:11,190 privacy, and our file sharing is good, 274 00:12:12,420 --> 00:12:14,639 but the only attempt I'm aware of 275 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,799 of explaining that is what Jeremy 276 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,809 Zimmerman does with his concept of data 277 00:12:18,810 --> 00:12:20,129 love, which is 278 00:12:21,180 --> 00:12:22,709 terribly romantic. 279 00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:24,809 But he's French and we should 280 00:12:24,810 --> 00:12:27,179 thank him for that. I mean, this idea of 281 00:12:27,180 --> 00:12:28,529 file sharing is data. 282 00:12:28,530 --> 00:12:30,679 Love is fantastic. 283 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:33,359 It's also this notion of privacy 284 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,399 as intimacy. 285 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:36,749 It helps a bit. 286 00:12:36,750 --> 00:12:37,750 But still, 287 00:12:39,270 --> 00:12:41,669 how many people do you encounter that say 288 00:12:41,670 --> 00:12:42,899 I have nothing to hide? 289 00:12:44,940 --> 00:12:46,290 Well, you know, way too many. 290 00:12:49,370 --> 00:12:51,649 So this 291 00:12:51,650 --> 00:12:53,809 idea of sharing knowledge starts 292 00:12:53,810 --> 00:12:55,399 with having at least a language to share 293 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,379 that, especially with laypersons, 294 00:12:59,390 --> 00:13:01,549 and the results of that 295 00:13:01,550 --> 00:13:04,129 are very bad legislation. 296 00:13:04,130 --> 00:13:05,659 And that's why I put in this quote by 297 00:13:05,660 --> 00:13:07,519 military honors under the current laws, 298 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,129 protect our infallible systems against 299 00:13:10,130 --> 00:13:12,529 anomalous people, you 300 00:13:12,530 --> 00:13:13,530 or us. 301 00:13:16,820 --> 00:13:19,399 An example of that is 302 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,649 what the expert controls in 303 00:13:21,650 --> 00:13:22,559 the updated version. 304 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:24,709 Our arrangements say what the definition 305 00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:26,150 is of intrusion software 306 00:13:27,650 --> 00:13:29,839 and that software, among other things, 307 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,029 does it modifies 308 00:13:32,030 --> 00:13:34,099 the standard execution path of a 309 00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:36,169 program of process in order to allow 310 00:13:36,170 --> 00:13:37,819 the execution of externally provided 311 00:13:37,820 --> 00:13:40,039 instructions that apply this 312 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:41,629 definition to a browser that is 313 00:13:41,630 --> 00:13:42,799 JavaScript capable. 314 00:13:44,870 --> 00:13:47,029 You all are running intrusion software 315 00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:49,249 on your computers that 316 00:13:49,250 --> 00:13:51,259 are susceptible to export controls from 317 00:13:51,260 --> 00:13:52,999 the revolutionary arrangement. 318 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,429 If you take this text literally 319 00:13:55,430 --> 00:13:57,019 with hopefully no one ever will do. 320 00:13:58,430 --> 00:14:01,309 This is not intentionally done wrong. 321 00:14:01,310 --> 00:14:03,619 Despite what you may think 322 00:14:03,620 --> 00:14:05,299 about the military industrial complex, 323 00:14:06,380 --> 00:14:08,329 there was no arrangement to be updated to 324 00:14:08,330 --> 00:14:09,129 include intrusion. 325 00:14:09,130 --> 00:14:11,509 Software was a generally 326 00:14:11,510 --> 00:14:13,699 bellman's measure to 327 00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:15,799 prevent companies for exporting all sorts 328 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,139 of nasty stuff to nefarious 329 00:14:18,140 --> 00:14:20,360 regimes like Syria and others. 330 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,139 But the net result is extremely 331 00:14:25,140 --> 00:14:26,140 unhelpful. 332 00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:30,349 And this would 333 00:14:30,350 --> 00:14:32,089 not have happened if the people drafting 334 00:14:32,090 --> 00:14:34,099 these documents at least had an idea of 335 00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:35,569 what computer software is and what it 336 00:14:35,570 --> 00:14:37,759 does, it would also have 337 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,829 been extremely helpful if 338 00:14:39,830 --> 00:14:42,379 a little bits of civil society we have 339 00:14:42,380 --> 00:14:44,509 weren't overburdened by things like data 340 00:14:44,510 --> 00:14:46,609 retention, net neutrality, copyright 341 00:14:46,610 --> 00:14:47,749 reform, etc. 342 00:14:47,750 --> 00:14:49,519 I would have been able to participate in 343 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,349 this, but were simply overwhelmed. 344 00:14:53,180 --> 00:14:55,309 So even if you don't want to become 345 00:14:55,310 --> 00:14:56,360 politically active 346 00:14:57,380 --> 00:14:58,429 and just hack, 347 00:14:59,870 --> 00:15:01,579 it would be extremely helpful if you were 348 00:15:01,580 --> 00:15:03,799 to at least help civil society 349 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:05,449 like digital coverage, digital, Gizelle, 350 00:15:05,450 --> 00:15:07,639 SCHAFT at European level, 351 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:08,640 European digital rights 352 00:15:10,220 --> 00:15:12,499 to help others, 353 00:15:12,500 --> 00:15:14,330 not to write stupid laws like these. 354 00:15:26,180 --> 00:15:28,429 And there's 355 00:15:28,430 --> 00:15:29,470 also useability, 356 00:15:32,060 --> 00:15:33,739 this is my famous error message. 357 00:15:33,740 --> 00:15:34,740 I got a yitzchak. 358 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,619 It informs me that someone else has sent 359 00:15:39,620 --> 00:15:41,749 me a message that was intended to 360 00:15:41,750 --> 00:15:43,699 another session surprise. 361 00:15:43,700 --> 00:15:45,769 I have multiple devices on 362 00:15:45,770 --> 00:15:47,480 which I run exemptive clients. 363 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,529 Now, imagine that you don't want to know 364 00:15:51,530 --> 00:15:53,719 about Otar or you may think 365 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,669 there's some STD because you don't know 366 00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:57,829 what the acronym means and you 367 00:15:57,830 --> 00:16:00,019 just want to do instant messaging 368 00:16:00,020 --> 00:16:02,629 with someone else and you're continuously 369 00:16:02,630 --> 00:16:05,289 confronted with stuff like this. 370 00:16:05,290 --> 00:16:07,429 I have to choose between using a 371 00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:10,069 yabut client that does stuff like this 372 00:16:10,070 --> 00:16:11,329 and just use Skype. 373 00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:18,999 The impact of that is that most people 374 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,219 will start using Skype again instead 375 00:16:21,220 --> 00:16:23,259 of a Yagmur lines like Getsy, 376 00:16:25,220 --> 00:16:27,489 and why would you care about 377 00:16:27,490 --> 00:16:28,490 that? 378 00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:31,539 Because you will be using another client. 379 00:16:31,540 --> 00:16:33,529 Now, 50 380 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,639 is fine if you only want to communicate 381 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,319 with other people who also use that 382 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:39,249 stuff. 383 00:16:39,250 --> 00:16:40,450 And here comes to clinch 384 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,339 the security of a social network 385 00:16:45,340 --> 00:16:47,249 that is community communicating. 386 00:16:47,250 --> 00:16:49,359 In addition, they will be 387 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,359 dictated by the amount of hassle 388 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,069 the largest group in the network will put 389 00:16:54,070 --> 00:16:55,070 up with. 390 00:16:56,380 --> 00:16:58,509 So in order to have secure 391 00:16:58,510 --> 00:17:00,579 communications, you must have 392 00:17:00,580 --> 00:17:03,399 usable communications for the largest, 393 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,328 the greatest common denominator. 394 00:17:05,329 --> 00:17:07,749 Again, normal people, 395 00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:08,750 not fish. 396 00:17:16,819 --> 00:17:18,649 So even if you don't believe in graphical 397 00:17:18,650 --> 00:17:21,229 user interfaces, even if you prefer to 398 00:17:21,230 --> 00:17:22,969 torture yourself using V.I. 399 00:17:22,970 --> 00:17:25,549 or IMEX, 400 00:17:25,550 --> 00:17:26,899 they both suck. 401 00:17:36,420 --> 00:17:39,239 You're your own security depends 402 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,459 on the extent to which other people have 403 00:17:41,460 --> 00:17:44,579 usable, secure means of communication. 404 00:17:44,580 --> 00:17:46,979 So I don't care about your hate 405 00:17:46,980 --> 00:17:49,469 or jihadism or 406 00:17:49,470 --> 00:17:50,879 to tell the people don't call on 407 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,559 Facebook. 408 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,239 Facebook is where the other people are. 409 00:18:02,810 --> 00:18:05,329 And this is not a funny phenomenon, 410 00:18:05,330 --> 00:18:06,330 tribalism. 411 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:12,459 If you were an anthropologist, I would 412 00:18:12,460 --> 00:18:14,679 observe 15 to 413 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:15,819 30 Seefried. 414 00:18:15,820 --> 00:18:18,459 This is a tribe of mostly white, 415 00:18:18,460 --> 00:18:20,949 upper middle class, university educated 416 00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:23,379 or at least flunked out of university, 417 00:18:23,380 --> 00:18:25,539 middle sipping, maid sipping 418 00:18:25,540 --> 00:18:27,170 and a surplus of facial hair. 419 00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:31,070 I mean. 420 00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:40,049 Diversity wise, congratulations, 421 00:18:40,050 --> 00:18:42,359 we may have reached parity 422 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:44,429 with the IT industry in general 423 00:18:44,430 --> 00:18:46,769 on the gender ratio, looking around 424 00:18:46,770 --> 00:18:48,959 at this fine 425 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,299 event, fantastic. 426 00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:53,609 Instead of 50 percent females, we have 427 00:18:53,610 --> 00:18:55,380 maybe 20 to 30 percent. 428 00:18:57,450 --> 00:18:59,279 Most people here are from Germany, the 429 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,889 Benelux, Poland, Scandinavia. 430 00:19:01,890 --> 00:19:04,049 And by that logic, there should at least 431 00:19:04,050 --> 00:19:05,489 be a few hundred people of Turkish 432 00:19:05,490 --> 00:19:07,379 descent in this group. 433 00:19:07,380 --> 00:19:08,490 There are roughly no. 434 00:19:10,540 --> 00:19:12,669 It also means that the I.D., a 435 00:19:12,670 --> 00:19:14,949 hacker ethic of we won't judge 436 00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:17,109 you on bogus credentials 437 00:19:17,110 --> 00:19:19,389 such as academic achievements, race, 438 00:19:19,390 --> 00:19:21,489 gender, etc., we do not live 439 00:19:21,490 --> 00:19:23,139 up to that. There aren't apparently are 440 00:19:23,140 --> 00:19:25,959 barriers. That in itself is a problem. 441 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:27,699 I have no idea how to solve it because 442 00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:29,739 I'm a white male. 443 00:19:29,740 --> 00:19:30,740 The facial hair. 444 00:19:32,230 --> 00:19:33,579 But let's at least acknowledge that. 445 00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:39,069 And then we have 446 00:19:39,070 --> 00:19:40,779 this interesting phenomenon, and I think 447 00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:43,239 that kind of is the rock that ties 448 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,639 the room together, rock 449 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:46,640 star culture. 450 00:19:48,390 --> 00:19:50,879 And we have fantastic heroes. 451 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,249 We need more of them, let's say Chelsea 452 00:19:53,250 --> 00:19:55,499 Manning, Arthur Snowden, 453 00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:57,659 John Kiriakou, those are true heroes. 454 00:19:57,660 --> 00:19:58,960 This is not what this is about. 455 00:20:00,390 --> 00:20:02,459 This is about some of 456 00:20:02,460 --> 00:20:04,949 our heroes were also our rock stars. 457 00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:06,539 And the reason I'm using the rock star 458 00:20:06,540 --> 00:20:07,469 analogy is that Ms. 459 00:20:07,470 --> 00:20:09,739 Roxon stands to be assholes that 460 00:20:09,740 --> 00:20:12,179 treat a group is like shit trash 461 00:20:12,180 --> 00:20:14,279 hotel rooms and are not excellent 462 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:15,280 for each other. 463 00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:18,590 And. 464 00:20:19,780 --> 00:20:21,909 That fosters a culture in 465 00:20:21,910 --> 00:20:24,579 which the other problems can occur 466 00:20:24,580 --> 00:20:26,979 if it's important to have rockstars, 467 00:20:26,980 --> 00:20:30,219 you get into a level of 468 00:20:30,220 --> 00:20:32,439 competition that's unhealthy. 469 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,929 It's not helpful in terms of 470 00:20:34,930 --> 00:20:36,519 cooperation. 471 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,739 And if you're the 472 00:20:38,740 --> 00:20:40,449 most interesting way of getting to the 473 00:20:40,450 --> 00:20:41,979 top is by breaking stuff, because 474 00:20:41,980 --> 00:20:44,229 breaking stuff is, by definition, easier 475 00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:45,970 than building stuff that's unbreakable. 476 00:20:53,220 --> 00:20:55,149 It also puts an incentive for doing a 477 00:20:55,150 --> 00:20:57,279 shitty thing of just accusing 478 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,049 your perceived competitors of not being 479 00:20:59,050 --> 00:21:01,149 ideologically pure 480 00:21:01,150 --> 00:21:03,619 or to have put pressure on 481 00:21:03,620 --> 00:21:05,649 content committees by saying that speaker 482 00:21:05,650 --> 00:21:08,349 has Nazi friends and that and therefore 483 00:21:08,350 --> 00:21:10,969 the speaker's guilty by association. 484 00:21:10,970 --> 00:21:13,029 Let's just judge on the merits 485 00:21:13,030 --> 00:21:15,279 of the person alone and not on the on 486 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,259 whoever he or she associates with. 487 00:21:19,150 --> 00:21:21,669 It also precludes usability 488 00:21:21,670 --> 00:21:24,009 because to write usable software, 489 00:21:24,010 --> 00:21:25,749 if you have code that software, you by 490 00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:27,399 definition can no longer adjust its 491 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:28,659 usability. 492 00:21:28,660 --> 00:21:30,909 It's like having a child. 493 00:21:30,910 --> 00:21:32,589 And of course, if it's your child, it's 494 00:21:32,590 --> 00:21:34,269 the smartest, most wonderful child in the 495 00:21:34,270 --> 00:21:35,649 world. 496 00:21:35,650 --> 00:21:37,389 It may still be a shitty child. 497 00:21:44,850 --> 00:21:47,249 So sort of in conclusion, 498 00:21:47,250 --> 00:21:49,209 I think if you want to fix certain things 499 00:21:49,210 --> 00:21:50,999 in our culture, you should at least fix 500 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,129 our culture and maybe the 501 00:21:53,130 --> 00:21:55,469 politics. And by the way, being 502 00:21:55,470 --> 00:21:57,179 too political is less of a problem, not 503 00:21:57,180 --> 00:21:58,479 being apolitical, I think. 504 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,069 So keep on 505 00:22:02,070 --> 00:22:04,169 people phoning all the things, 506 00:22:04,170 --> 00:22:06,809 keep them decentralizing all the things, 507 00:22:06,810 --> 00:22:08,969 people encrypting all the things 508 00:22:08,970 --> 00:22:11,339 I just realized is not necessary enough. 509 00:22:11,340 --> 00:22:12,340 Thank you. 510 00:22:21,030 --> 00:22:23,429 Thank you very much, Walter. 511 00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:25,629 We have time for a few questions. 512 00:22:25,630 --> 00:22:27,160 Are there questions from the Internet? 513 00:22:29,670 --> 00:22:30,749 Not yet, so. 514 00:22:30,750 --> 00:22:32,279 No, not at the moment. 515 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:33,179 Not at the moment. 516 00:22:33,180 --> 00:22:35,069 OK, so microphone number three, 517 00:22:36,210 --> 00:22:38,429 I don't have a question, but 518 00:22:38,430 --> 00:22:40,499 I just want to say thank you for this 519 00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:41,699 talk. 520 00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:42,700 You're welcome. 521 00:22:49,820 --> 00:22:50,820 Microphone number two, 522 00:22:52,010 --> 00:22:54,140 hi, also thank you for the talk, but 523 00:22:55,550 --> 00:22:58,099 I think you mentioned a lot of very 524 00:22:58,100 --> 00:22:59,449 important things here. 525 00:22:59,450 --> 00:23:01,999 But I also think that it's important 526 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,399 to think about, you know, 527 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:05,959 the thing one of the things you mentioned 528 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,209 last like you're saying 529 00:23:08,210 --> 00:23:10,609 that we should judge a person only 530 00:23:10,610 --> 00:23:12,889 by themselves and not by the people 531 00:23:12,890 --> 00:23:14,029 they associate with. 532 00:23:14,030 --> 00:23:16,189 But one might also ask 533 00:23:16,190 --> 00:23:17,929 and that is something that has to do with 534 00:23:17,930 --> 00:23:20,029 the person themselves, why do 535 00:23:20,030 --> 00:23:21,919 they associate with Nazis? 536 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,779 Wait, why do they do that? 537 00:23:23,780 --> 00:23:25,609 And I think that's a legitimate question 538 00:23:25,610 --> 00:23:27,739 to ask. And I would like you to maybe 539 00:23:27,740 --> 00:23:29,869 elaborate why you think that 540 00:23:29,870 --> 00:23:31,849 this somehow doesn't say something about 541 00:23:31,850 --> 00:23:32,829 a person. 542 00:23:32,830 --> 00:23:34,909 I think it's important 543 00:23:34,910 --> 00:23:36,679 to to think about this as well. 544 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,349 And I think that it is problematic. 545 00:23:39,350 --> 00:23:41,659 And, for example, to 546 00:23:41,660 --> 00:23:43,809 to to be friends with a Nazi. 547 00:23:43,810 --> 00:23:44,810 Yeah, well. 548 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:51,509 Personally, I wouldn't associate with 549 00:23:51,510 --> 00:23:52,510 Nazis. 550 00:23:53,250 --> 00:23:54,989 However, I consider a person who was 551 00:23:54,990 --> 00:23:57,299 willing to do so a better person than me 552 00:23:57,300 --> 00:23:59,459 simply because that person considers 553 00:23:59,460 --> 00:24:00,939 evil Nazis fellow humans. 554 00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:03,809 If you start denying the humanity in 555 00:24:03,810 --> 00:24:05,309 other people, you're becoming a 556 00:24:05,310 --> 00:24:06,509 totalitarian. 557 00:24:06,510 --> 00:24:08,309 My question you could to my question 558 00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:09,479 around, that's not what I said. 559 00:24:12,850 --> 00:24:14,319 Let me let me put it this way. 560 00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:28,029 There may be there may be other reasons, 561 00:24:28,030 --> 00:24:30,369 the example I have in mind is someone 562 00:24:30,370 --> 00:24:32,709 who actually is 563 00:24:32,710 --> 00:24:35,559 is not considered by 564 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,959 the culture standards of the 565 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,119 country, and the person is living as 566 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:41,619 a white person who nonetheless is 567 00:24:41,620 --> 00:24:43,359 associated with a neo-Nazi because they 568 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:45,459 are both from a very modest 569 00:24:45,460 --> 00:24:47,349 Working-Class upbringing and realize the 570 00:24:47,350 --> 00:24:49,359 kind of challenges they have had to 571 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:51,729 become Hecker's themselves to overcome. 572 00:24:51,730 --> 00:24:53,949 Neither of them are the 573 00:24:53,950 --> 00:24:56,049 well, the white, middle 574 00:24:56,050 --> 00:24:58,419 class, university educated 575 00:24:58,420 --> 00:25:00,879 mother sipping male 576 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,039 a surplus of facial hair. 577 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,199 That in itself can be, I think, 578 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,479 a fair a good reason why someone 579 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,339 is still talking to someone else like 580 00:25:09,340 --> 00:25:12,279 that. And let me say, 581 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:13,539 OK, we have been got 582 00:25:14,590 --> 00:25:15,969 this speech already. 583 00:25:15,970 --> 00:25:18,819 Anyway, Wallenberg 584 00:25:18,820 --> 00:25:21,070 is brother in law was US gerring. 585 00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:26,179 I mean, Wallenberg will help 586 00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:28,309 so many people escaping the Holocaust 587 00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:30,409 nonetheless, had one of the architects 588 00:25:30,410 --> 00:25:32,329 of the Holocaust at this Christmas dinner 589 00:25:32,330 --> 00:25:33,879 because it was his brother in law. 590 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,989 Well, I'm slightly exaggerating here. 591 00:25:37,550 --> 00:25:39,409 People do not always get to associate 592 00:25:39,410 --> 00:25:41,389 with the associate, not do not always get 593 00:25:41,390 --> 00:25:43,169 to choose who they associate with. 594 00:25:43,170 --> 00:25:46,039 If only because, for example, family. 595 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,469 What would you find it reasonable 596 00:25:48,470 --> 00:25:51,079 to exclude someone for not disavowing 597 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:52,519 his or her family? 598 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,859 Well, clearly disavowing 599 00:25:54,860 --> 00:25:56,989 the ideology and not being part of that. 600 00:25:59,290 --> 00:26:01,539 To answer that, we have to 601 00:26:01,540 --> 00:26:03,669 make sure that everybody could 602 00:26:03,670 --> 00:26:05,499 try to have a question, so there was one 603 00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:07,029 person from the Internet. 604 00:26:07,030 --> 00:26:08,030 OK. 605 00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:11,449 Well, actually, there are two now, but 606 00:26:11,450 --> 00:26:14,209 the first question is, how 607 00:26:14,210 --> 00:26:16,329 do we solve the problem with rock star 608 00:26:16,330 --> 00:26:17,330 Kaija? 609 00:26:19,130 --> 00:26:21,979 By demanding that our heroes 610 00:26:21,980 --> 00:26:24,019 keep on being excellent to each other and 611 00:26:24,020 --> 00:26:26,089 us just not 612 00:26:26,090 --> 00:26:28,429 to apply a lower standard 613 00:26:28,430 --> 00:26:30,169 so our heroes than we would otherwise 614 00:26:30,170 --> 00:26:32,569 apply for other members of our community 615 00:26:32,570 --> 00:26:33,679 as simple as that. 616 00:26:38,170 --> 00:26:39,219 Microphone number three, 617 00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:43,479 you mentioned that there should always 618 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,879 be moderates and extremists, 619 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,209 so to say that they will 620 00:26:48,210 --> 00:26:50,649 all set against each other, but 621 00:26:50,650 --> 00:26:52,719 I think that a big problem going on 622 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,579 there is that generally the moderates 623 00:26:54,580 --> 00:26:56,589 don't understand why the extremists do 624 00:26:56,590 --> 00:26:57,999 what they do and the other way around. 625 00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,709 And there's not really any communication 626 00:26:59,710 --> 00:27:01,869 between the two. So they should 627 00:27:01,870 --> 00:27:03,339 coexist, but there should be more 628 00:27:03,340 --> 00:27:05,769 communication as to exactly who does what 629 00:27:05,770 --> 00:27:07,899 and why and how the two can work 630 00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:08,469 together. 631 00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:10,149 But I think that's kind of the important 632 00:27:10,150 --> 00:27:10,929 part of that. 633 00:27:10,930 --> 00:27:12,819 Thank you for the rephrasing my point. 634 00:27:12,820 --> 00:27:14,429 And I did myself. 635 00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:16,629 OK, OK, so we 636 00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:18,099 are short on time. We'll have one more 637 00:27:18,100 --> 00:27:19,240 question from the Internet. 638 00:27:20,890 --> 00:27:23,289 OK, in regards to the diversity 639 00:27:23,290 --> 00:27:25,629 issue, do you have any information 640 00:27:25,630 --> 00:27:28,179 on the development in regards to 641 00:27:28,180 --> 00:27:28,959 this issue? 642 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,059 And is there a tendency 643 00:27:31,060 --> 00:27:33,339 to towards a less open group of 644 00:27:33,340 --> 00:27:35,739 like tipping people with 645 00:27:35,740 --> 00:27:37,389 facial hair? 646 00:27:37,390 --> 00:27:39,189 Actually, as a person with facial hair? 647 00:27:39,190 --> 00:27:40,239 I have no idea. 648 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:41,979 And just to just quote Nick Farr will 649 00:27:41,980 --> 00:27:44,019 certainly is not us this time. 650 00:27:44,020 --> 00:27:45,909 If you have to start thinking about it, 651 00:27:45,910 --> 00:27:47,799 you can only there's only one thing 652 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,089 certain you're doing it wrong. 653 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,209 And it's I think it's mostly a matter to 654 00:27:52,210 --> 00:27:53,949 ask people, for example, who have a 655 00:27:53,950 --> 00:27:55,959 visiting hackerspace but who did not 656 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,509 return, why they didn't return. 657 00:27:58,510 --> 00:28:00,639 It's this is a question that 658 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,039 cannot be answered by the people who 659 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,169 are part of a still partake in 660 00:28:05,170 --> 00:28:07,479 the community. It's about the people who 661 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:08,979 took a look and left. 662 00:28:08,980 --> 00:28:10,239 And I have to do that. 663 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,639 It's about realizing 664 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,099 that walking around in a 665 00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:17,319 T-shirt and sipping Martha 666 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,449 in itself already 667 00:28:19,450 --> 00:28:21,279 signals we have codes 668 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:24,699 and you must know the codes to fit 669 00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:25,700 in. 670 00:28:27,270 --> 00:28:28,709 But much further than that, I don't. 671 00:28:28,710 --> 00:28:29,710 That's 672 00:28:31,140 --> 00:28:31,769 OK. 673 00:28:31,770 --> 00:28:33,689 So final question from microphone. 674 00:28:33,690 --> 00:28:34,529 My pleasure. 675 00:28:34,530 --> 00:28:35,699 But please make it short. 676 00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:37,769 Yeah, I just have one question. 677 00:28:37,770 --> 00:28:40,049 I think there is a lot of 678 00:28:40,050 --> 00:28:42,389 kydd on, you know, programing 679 00:28:42,390 --> 00:28:43,949 on that one for people that want to 680 00:28:43,950 --> 00:28:46,049 learn. But I feel that there is a lot 681 00:28:46,050 --> 00:28:48,179 of less guides about, you know, 682 00:28:48,180 --> 00:28:49,799 what you can do to get involved in 683 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,099 politics or take actual civil action 684 00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:55,259 in this community at least. 685 00:28:55,260 --> 00:28:57,569 Well, actually, I mentioned European 686 00:28:57,570 --> 00:28:59,909 digital rights and they publish kind 687 00:28:59,910 --> 00:29:02,219 of Dumela like guides like 688 00:29:02,220 --> 00:29:04,289 a guide to the Brussels maze and 689 00:29:04,290 --> 00:29:06,539 stuff like that. And several other NGOs 690 00:29:06,540 --> 00:29:08,219 and civil society published similar 691 00:29:08,220 --> 00:29:09,220 documents. 692 00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:10,990 And 693 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:14,729 this is not meant as a let me Google this 694 00:29:14,730 --> 00:29:16,709 for you, but it actually is quite a bit 695 00:29:16,710 --> 00:29:19,859 of information available and 696 00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:21,780 quite often also in your native language. 697 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,119 Thank you. 698 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,399 OK, so as we are out of time, so 699 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,649 this concludes our Q&A session, 700 00:29:30,650 --> 00:29:32,119 please give another round of applause to 701 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:33,120 Walter.