0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/326 Thanks! 1 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:11,109 Thanks very much. It's really great being 2 00:00:11,110 --> 00:00:12,110 here. 3 00:00:13,900 --> 00:00:16,058 The CCC and I go back almost 4 00:00:16,059 --> 00:00:18,369 as far the same year I 5 00:00:18,370 --> 00:00:20,019 my first book, The Puzzle Palace, came 6 00:00:20,020 --> 00:00:22,329 out in nineteen eighty two 7 00:00:22,330 --> 00:00:25,089 and the first of CCC 8 00:00:25,090 --> 00:00:27,489 was in 1983. 9 00:00:27,490 --> 00:00:29,559 So it's really great to have sort of 10 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:30,610 a reunion here. 11 00:00:33,230 --> 00:00:35,299 What are the things that I really 12 00:00:35,300 --> 00:00:37,429 noticed lately since Edward 13 00:00:37,430 --> 00:00:39,409 Snowden was how many people know about 14 00:00:39,410 --> 00:00:41,569 NSA? When I first started writing 15 00:00:41,570 --> 00:00:43,819 about NSA, the first book I did was 16 00:00:43,820 --> 00:00:46,609 the Puzzle Palace in 1982. 17 00:00:46,610 --> 00:00:48,409 Virtually nobody had ever heard of NSA. 18 00:00:48,410 --> 00:00:49,909 There was a senator, Senator Bill 19 00:00:49,910 --> 00:00:52,339 Bradley, one of the most prominent 20 00:00:52,340 --> 00:00:54,979 senators in the US Congress. 21 00:00:54,980 --> 00:00:57,019 I was in a car with him going to a 22 00:00:57,020 --> 00:00:58,909 speaking engagement, and he said, What's 23 00:00:58,910 --> 00:01:00,139 your book about? And I said this about 24 00:01:00,140 --> 00:01:01,069 NSA? 25 00:01:01,070 --> 00:01:02,839 And he said, what's that? 26 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:04,999 So we got a TV show and 27 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,309 the host asked me how secret is NSA? 28 00:01:07,310 --> 00:01:08,929 And I said, well, even Senator Bradley 29 00:01:08,930 --> 00:01:09,799 had never heard of it. 30 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,229 So he got up and went 31 00:01:12,230 --> 00:01:13,759 back to the hotel by himself. 32 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:15,289 He didn't want to ride in the same car 33 00:01:15,290 --> 00:01:17,639 with me after I 34 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:18,949 thought I insulted him. 35 00:01:18,950 --> 00:01:21,229 But so 36 00:01:21,230 --> 00:01:23,509 that's how little known NSA 37 00:01:23,510 --> 00:01:24,889 was back then. 38 00:01:24,890 --> 00:01:27,139 And last 39 00:01:27,140 --> 00:01:29,599 summer, I spent 40 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:30,709 with Ed Snowden. 41 00:01:30,710 --> 00:01:32,449 I hung out with him for three days in 42 00:01:32,450 --> 00:01:34,519 Moscow for a cover story for Wired 43 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:35,520 magazine. 44 00:01:36,380 --> 00:01:38,039 And it was really quite amazing. 45 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,339 We had pizza together and 46 00:01:40,340 --> 00:01:42,589 hung out for three days and really 47 00:01:42,590 --> 00:01:44,809 amazing being with him. 48 00:01:44,810 --> 00:01:46,909 And, you know, one of the things 49 00:01:46,910 --> 00:01:49,159 that has changed now, 50 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,229 it's back in the old days, NSA, 51 00:01:51,230 --> 00:01:53,569 the old joke was it stood for 52 00:01:53,570 --> 00:01:55,639 no such agency or never say 53 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,739 anything. And now it stands for not 54 00:01:57,740 --> 00:01:58,849 secret anymore, 55 00:02:00,590 --> 00:02:02,809 which it got a big kick 56 00:02:02,810 --> 00:02:03,810 out of. 57 00:02:06,510 --> 00:02:08,519 So I really never talked about my 58 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,499 background because it was the same way 59 00:02:10,500 --> 00:02:12,599 with Ed when I was talking to him, 60 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,189 because he just never wanted to give me 61 00:02:14,190 --> 00:02:15,539 anything about his background. 62 00:02:15,540 --> 00:02:18,239 It was like pulling teeth to find out 63 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,339 how he got into this whole thing 64 00:02:20,340 --> 00:02:21,249 when he was growing up. 65 00:02:21,250 --> 00:02:23,249 But he was reading that kind of thing. 66 00:02:23,250 --> 00:02:24,689 So I never really talk about it. 67 00:02:24,690 --> 00:02:26,460 And then when I was with Laura Poitras 68 00:02:27,570 --> 00:02:29,669 last year, I told her, 69 00:02:29,670 --> 00:02:31,559 you know, I've been a whistleblower one 70 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:33,719 time with NSA, although I never made 71 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:34,720 any 72 00:02:35,790 --> 00:02:37,199 really never mentioned it before. 73 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,089 So she wanted me to write a cover story 74 00:02:39,090 --> 00:02:41,369 or write a big piece 75 00:02:41,370 --> 00:02:44,009 for her publication, 76 00:02:44,010 --> 00:02:45,209 The Intercept. And I did. 77 00:02:45,210 --> 00:02:47,459 So I began talking 78 00:02:47,460 --> 00:02:48,659 a little bit about it. So I thought it 79 00:02:48,660 --> 00:02:50,069 might be interesting to give a little 80 00:02:50,070 --> 00:02:52,619 background before I get into my main 81 00:02:52,620 --> 00:02:53,639 talk. 82 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:55,769 Anyway, in the Navy, 83 00:02:55,770 --> 00:02:58,079 I was really lucky during the Vietnam 84 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,389 War. I got no one on the draft. 85 00:03:00,390 --> 00:03:01,589 You know, it's the only thing I ever won 86 00:03:01,590 --> 00:03:02,590 in my life. 87 00:03:03,540 --> 00:03:05,159 And I don't really consider that winning. 88 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:06,749 But anyway, I spent three years in the 89 00:03:06,750 --> 00:03:09,029 Navy and like Snowden, 90 00:03:09,030 --> 00:03:11,099 I got sent to a NSA 91 00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:13,469 secret NSA place in Hawaii 92 00:03:13,470 --> 00:03:14,829 for three years. 93 00:03:14,830 --> 00:03:17,129 Um, I did a few other things 94 00:03:17,130 --> 00:03:19,319 like fishing, but I also 95 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:20,939 did this work for the NSA 96 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,179 that is mostly focused on Vietnam and so 97 00:03:24,180 --> 00:03:26,309 forth. And then after 98 00:03:26,310 --> 00:03:29,369 that, I was in law school 99 00:03:29,370 --> 00:03:30,279 as a picture of me. 100 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:31,280 I have more hair. 101 00:03:34,450 --> 00:03:35,889 So when I was in law school, 102 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:38,979 I had to think about what I was going to 103 00:03:38,980 --> 00:03:41,229 do and one 104 00:03:41,230 --> 00:03:42,249 of the things while I was there, I was 105 00:03:42,250 --> 00:03:43,809 still in the Navy Reserve. 106 00:03:43,810 --> 00:03:45,909 And so the Navy, I had 107 00:03:45,910 --> 00:03:48,759 to do two weeks active duty once a year. 108 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,309 So the Navy sent me down to 109 00:03:51,310 --> 00:03:53,159 another listening post. 110 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:54,160 Uh. 111 00:03:55,180 --> 00:03:56,589 It was caused by A.H. 112 00:03:56,590 --> 00:03:58,599 in Puerto Rico and. 113 00:04:01,170 --> 00:04:03,059 It was a big listening post here, mostly 114 00:04:03,060 --> 00:04:06,089 focused on Cuba and 115 00:04:06,090 --> 00:04:07,739 South America, Central America, the 116 00:04:07,740 --> 00:04:10,459 Caribbean, and that's 117 00:04:10,460 --> 00:04:12,659 a big round circle, their 118 00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:14,789 nickname, Elephant Cages, because those 119 00:04:14,790 --> 00:04:16,708 are antennas, those huge things going 120 00:04:16,709 --> 00:04:18,809 around the quarter mile 121 00:04:18,810 --> 00:04:20,909 wide. And the people 122 00:04:20,910 --> 00:04:21,910 work in that little 123 00:04:23,070 --> 00:04:25,529 central square box 124 00:04:25,530 --> 00:04:27,059 there. That's where all the interceptions 125 00:04:27,060 --> 00:04:28,060 done. 126 00:04:28,620 --> 00:04:30,839 And not many people have ever seen 127 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:32,639 the inside of one of those. 128 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,649 But I'll show you what it looked like in 129 00:04:34,650 --> 00:04:36,089 there with all the people listening. 130 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,029 Here they are. 131 00:04:42,030 --> 00:04:43,829 That's what it was, and there you see 132 00:04:43,830 --> 00:04:46,079 Barack and and 133 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:47,639 George down there, they got their 134 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:48,640 training down there 135 00:04:49,950 --> 00:04:51,420 anyway. So we were in the 136 00:04:53,050 --> 00:04:54,579 I was doing the the 137 00:04:56,070 --> 00:04:58,259 work in the listening post. 138 00:04:58,260 --> 00:05:00,119 I was mostly trying to avoid work. 139 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:01,349 I was just down there for two weeks, 140 00:05:01,350 --> 00:05:02,350 active duty. And then 141 00:05:03,590 --> 00:05:05,699 some day I went out drinking 142 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:07,829 with an I.V. for sodomy and say, 143 00:05:07,830 --> 00:05:09,299 hey, you want to listen to something? 144 00:05:09,300 --> 00:05:11,459 So I, I said, 145 00:05:11,460 --> 00:05:13,529 look, I don't really speak Spanish much. 146 00:05:13,530 --> 00:05:14,849 I don't you know, it's not going to do me 147 00:05:14,850 --> 00:05:15,850 much good. 148 00:05:16,740 --> 00:05:18,749 So I don't know. It's English. 149 00:05:18,750 --> 00:05:21,119 I say, OK, I'll put the earphones 150 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:22,049 on. 151 00:05:22,050 --> 00:05:23,369 What do you know it was Americans talking 152 00:05:23,370 --> 00:05:25,469 to each other is kind of odd, 153 00:05:25,470 --> 00:05:27,599 especially listening to the, you 154 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,219 know, South Americans or Cubans or 155 00:05:29,220 --> 00:05:30,389 somebody like that. 156 00:05:30,390 --> 00:05:31,390 So. 157 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,249 This is sort of what it was like inside, 158 00:05:36,250 --> 00:05:38,569 they were doing all the eavesdropping 159 00:05:38,570 --> 00:05:40,419 on different telephone calls and, you 160 00:05:40,420 --> 00:05:42,849 know, I was very surprised that the 161 00:05:42,850 --> 00:05:44,949 that the Americans were on 162 00:05:44,950 --> 00:05:46,389 the other side of the communication. 163 00:05:46,390 --> 00:05:48,519 So I decided I when I got back 164 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,589 to law school, 165 00:05:50,590 --> 00:05:52,089 it was at the same time the church 166 00:05:52,090 --> 00:05:54,459 committee was doing their investigation. 167 00:05:54,460 --> 00:05:56,409 And so I decided to be a whistleblower 168 00:05:56,410 --> 00:05:57,879 and I called up the church committee. 169 00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:59,559 I said, did you know that the NSA is 170 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,989 doing eavesdropping down in 171 00:06:01,990 --> 00:06:05,109 Hawaii or rather down in Puerto Rico? 172 00:06:05,110 --> 00:06:07,179 And they had heard from NSA that 173 00:06:07,180 --> 00:06:09,579 they had been doing this eavesdropping, 174 00:06:09,580 --> 00:06:11,229 but they stopped that a year and a half 175 00:06:11,230 --> 00:06:12,219 earlier. 176 00:06:12,220 --> 00:06:13,689 And I said, well, I was just down there 177 00:06:13,690 --> 00:06:15,699 like last month and they're still doing 178 00:06:15,700 --> 00:06:16,700 it. 179 00:06:17,260 --> 00:06:19,629 And at the time, it was a 180 00:06:19,630 --> 00:06:22,179 program that was known as Minaret. 181 00:06:23,650 --> 00:06:26,049 And they were focused on really 182 00:06:26,050 --> 00:06:28,809 the the most serious criminals 183 00:06:28,810 --> 00:06:30,879 and hardened terrorists in 184 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,720 the United States, like Jane Fonda. 185 00:06:35,890 --> 00:06:38,169 Another one was Dr. 186 00:06:38,170 --> 00:06:40,269 Benjamin Spock, he says 187 00:06:40,270 --> 00:06:42,249 is hiding the weapons behind the baby. 188 00:06:42,250 --> 00:06:45,639 They're Muhammad 189 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:46,640 Ali 190 00:06:47,740 --> 00:06:49,959 and then Dr. Martin 191 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:50,439 Luther King. 192 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,119 So this was a project minaret. 193 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,429 They were eavesdropping on US 194 00:06:54,430 --> 00:06:56,739 communications and all these hardened 195 00:06:56,740 --> 00:06:57,740 targets here. 196 00:06:58,690 --> 00:07:01,299 So after I told 197 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:03,459 Frank the church committee about 198 00:07:03,460 --> 00:07:05,709 the NSA, 199 00:07:05,710 --> 00:07:06,710 they were. 200 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:09,309 Like I said during their hearings at the 201 00:07:09,310 --> 00:07:11,469 time, they said 202 00:07:11,470 --> 00:07:12,999 come down to Washington as soon as you 203 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:14,679 can. So the next morning I flew down to 204 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,679 Washington and they had 205 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,170 had me brief Senator Frank Church. 206 00:07:22,890 --> 00:07:25,319 An executive session, a very 207 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,389 it was off the record, kind 208 00:07:27,390 --> 00:07:29,279 of a quiet little 209 00:07:31,020 --> 00:07:33,269 briefing in his office, and 210 00:07:33,270 --> 00:07:34,979 when I told him that the NSA is still 211 00:07:34,980 --> 00:07:36,989 doing what they said, they stopped a year 212 00:07:36,990 --> 00:07:38,729 and a half earlier. 213 00:07:38,730 --> 00:07:39,930 He practically flipped. 214 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,009 He he was really angry, 215 00:07:44,010 --> 00:07:46,499 you know, so he he decided 216 00:07:46,500 --> 00:07:48,599 to send his staff 217 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,599 on a surprise visit down to Puerto Rico 218 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,089 to check out what was going on. 219 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,489 And again, 220 00:07:56,490 --> 00:07:58,439 the people at the listening post had no 221 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,379 idea that these people are coming down. 222 00:08:01,380 --> 00:08:02,939 So what happened was. 223 00:08:05,250 --> 00:08:07,019 They did a surprise visit down at 224 00:08:07,020 --> 00:08:09,359 Savannah Saica, they flew down 225 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,609 there and when they got down there, 226 00:08:11,610 --> 00:08:13,709 they they really caught these guys 227 00:08:13,710 --> 00:08:14,579 by surprise. 228 00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:17,279 I mean, the the the station chiefs 229 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,379 running away, all the 230 00:08:19,380 --> 00:08:20,819 all the people, they started really 231 00:08:20,820 --> 00:08:22,379 hiding out wherever they could. 232 00:08:28,220 --> 00:08:29,220 So. 233 00:08:32,460 --> 00:08:34,559 Anyway, when, when? 234 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,339 The staff got back to Washington, 235 00:08:38,340 --> 00:08:40,199 they told Senator Frank Church what was 236 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,329 going on, you know, all of a sudden 237 00:08:42,330 --> 00:08:44,158 he found out the NSA was lying. 238 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:46,169 I mean, you know, the NSA would actually 239 00:08:46,170 --> 00:08:47,170 lie. So, 240 00:08:48,630 --> 00:08:49,949 you know, that was a big shock. 241 00:08:49,950 --> 00:08:50,950 The NSA 242 00:08:52,860 --> 00:08:54,269 had been telling him for a year and a 243 00:08:54,270 --> 00:08:55,799 half. We stopped it and all of a sudden 244 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:56,699 they're still doing it. 245 00:08:56,700 --> 00:08:58,709 So it was a big shock. 246 00:08:58,710 --> 00:09:00,959 It was a shock to me to you know, I 247 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,299 this surprised NSA would 248 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:04,329 do something like that. 249 00:09:04,330 --> 00:09:06,629 So at the time I was in law school 250 00:09:06,630 --> 00:09:08,849 and when I graduated, 251 00:09:08,850 --> 00:09:11,009 instead of, you know, handling 252 00:09:11,010 --> 00:09:13,409 divorces or doing something for 253 00:09:13,410 --> 00:09:15,479 in in law, I 254 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,639 decided to become a writer and. 255 00:09:19,410 --> 00:09:21,719 Because of what I saw 256 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,549 with NASA and all that, I decided to 257 00:09:23,550 --> 00:09:26,009 become the writer 258 00:09:26,010 --> 00:09:27,869 of the first book on NSA, the Puzzle 259 00:09:27,870 --> 00:09:30,059 Palace, which was a 260 00:09:30,060 --> 00:09:31,589 really interesting thing. 261 00:09:31,590 --> 00:09:32,819 I spent three years on it. 262 00:09:32,820 --> 00:09:34,709 Nobody'd ever done a book on NSA. 263 00:09:34,710 --> 00:09:36,989 It was very it was like exploring 264 00:09:36,990 --> 00:09:38,640 a brand new continent. 265 00:09:39,660 --> 00:09:40,980 One of the things that I 266 00:09:42,210 --> 00:09:44,309 discovered in doing my research 267 00:09:44,310 --> 00:09:45,720 was this document here. 268 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,409 It was a document I got under the Freedom 269 00:09:49,410 --> 00:09:50,639 of Information Act from the Justice 270 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:52,409 Department. It was extraordinarily 271 00:09:52,410 --> 00:09:53,519 interesting document. 272 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,229 Nobody ever knew that this document 273 00:09:55,230 --> 00:09:56,829 existed. There were only two copies of 274 00:09:56,830 --> 00:09:59,069 whatever it were made. 275 00:09:59,070 --> 00:10:01,259 And what it was was the criminal 276 00:10:01,260 --> 00:10:02,479 file of NSA. 277 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,609 In nineteen seventy, 1975, the Justice 278 00:10:05,610 --> 00:10:07,349 Department actually began a criminal 279 00:10:07,350 --> 00:10:10,229 investigation of NSA, the first time 280 00:10:10,230 --> 00:10:12,569 a federal agency had ever been subject 281 00:10:12,570 --> 00:10:14,850 to an actual criminal investigation. 282 00:10:16,290 --> 00:10:17,459 But it was top secret. 283 00:10:17,460 --> 00:10:19,589 They they wouldn't tell anybody that this 284 00:10:19,590 --> 00:10:20,909 investigation was going on. 285 00:10:20,910 --> 00:10:23,099 And then by the time the 286 00:10:23,100 --> 00:10:25,169 investigation was ended, 287 00:10:25,170 --> 00:10:27,839 they felt that everything was too secret 288 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,059 to actually bring anybody 289 00:10:30,060 --> 00:10:32,489 to trial. But they actually 290 00:10:32,490 --> 00:10:34,499 read the Miranda rights to the senior 291 00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:35,700 officials at NSA. 292 00:10:37,050 --> 00:10:38,819 They considered the whole agency a 293 00:10:38,820 --> 00:10:41,189 potential criminal entity, 294 00:10:41,190 --> 00:10:42,250 you know, like the Mafia. 295 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:44,360 So. 296 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,409 And they found they found 20 different 297 00:10:51,410 --> 00:10:53,689 areas where they could prosecute, but 298 00:10:53,690 --> 00:10:56,089 they decided, you know, including 299 00:10:56,090 --> 00:10:58,009 eavesdropping on Jane Fonda and all these 300 00:10:58,010 --> 00:11:00,139 people. So but because of 301 00:11:00,140 --> 00:11:02,269 the secrecy, they said they they couldn't 302 00:11:03,380 --> 00:11:04,380 bring it to court. 303 00:11:05,510 --> 00:11:06,679 But what happened was that 304 00:11:07,820 --> 00:11:09,919 the Justice Department had released 305 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:11,959 that document to me under the Free 306 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,839 Information Act, but NSA had no idea 307 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,549 that they released it to me. 308 00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:18,889 So when NSA found out, 309 00:11:18,890 --> 00:11:21,649 they reclassified it as top secret 310 00:11:21,650 --> 00:11:23,299 and demanded I give it back. 311 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,949 Which I wasn't about to do, 312 00:11:27,950 --> 00:11:29,480 but they were really 313 00:11:30,650 --> 00:11:32,299 insistent and they were threatening me 314 00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:34,249 with the espionage statute. 315 00:11:34,250 --> 00:11:36,409 There is a part of the espionage statute 316 00:11:36,410 --> 00:11:38,059 that says if you come into possession of 317 00:11:38,060 --> 00:11:40,309 classified documents and refuse 318 00:11:40,310 --> 00:11:42,889 to return them to the proper custodian, 319 00:11:42,890 --> 00:11:44,599 you could be charged under the espionage 320 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:45,649 statute. So, 321 00:11:46,730 --> 00:11:49,099 uh, but regardless, 322 00:11:49,100 --> 00:11:50,209 I decided not to 323 00:11:51,380 --> 00:11:53,629 give it back, and 324 00:11:53,630 --> 00:11:55,099 they eventually went away. 325 00:11:55,100 --> 00:11:57,379 But when I did the piece 326 00:11:57,380 --> 00:11:59,809 for The Intercept, the 327 00:12:01,700 --> 00:12:04,009 Glenn Greenwald and The Intercept, people 328 00:12:04,010 --> 00:12:04,969 put it online. 329 00:12:04,970 --> 00:12:06,379 So it's now available. 330 00:12:06,380 --> 00:12:07,819 If you go to the intercept and look at my 331 00:12:07,820 --> 00:12:10,069 article, you could read the top 332 00:12:10,070 --> 00:12:11,070 secret report. 333 00:12:15,290 --> 00:12:16,290 So 334 00:12:17,570 --> 00:12:18,599 that's what happened. 335 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,019 They they threatened me with prosecution. 336 00:12:21,020 --> 00:12:22,849 That's what was going through my mind at 337 00:12:22,850 --> 00:12:24,349 the time when they were threatening me 338 00:12:24,350 --> 00:12:25,609 with prosecution there. 339 00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:26,809 I could just see myself 340 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,529 being arrested and so forth. 341 00:12:30,530 --> 00:12:31,530 But 342 00:12:33,530 --> 00:12:35,599 what they wanted to do actually was stop 343 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,009 the book from coming out. 344 00:12:37,010 --> 00:12:39,229 They had to threaten me twice 345 00:12:39,230 --> 00:12:41,299 with prosecution once when the 346 00:12:41,300 --> 00:12:43,639 I won't give the documents back and once 347 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,259 before the book came out, because they 348 00:12:45,260 --> 00:12:46,819 said the book is going to contain all 349 00:12:46,820 --> 00:12:50,209 kinds of secrets. But it came out 350 00:12:50,210 --> 00:12:52,399 and there were a few unhappy 351 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:53,369 people at NSA. 352 00:12:53,370 --> 00:12:55,309 There were a few people that weren't very 353 00:12:55,310 --> 00:12:56,569 happy that my book came out. 354 00:12:56,570 --> 00:12:58,129 I took some pictures of a few of them 355 00:12:58,130 --> 00:12:59,320 there. Uh, 356 00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:02,989 they they just 357 00:13:02,990 --> 00:13:05,089 overreacted a little bit to the fact that 358 00:13:05,090 --> 00:13:07,469 I was writing this book anyway. 359 00:13:07,470 --> 00:13:09,109 Now, let me get back to what I was going 360 00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:10,909 to be talking about here was the 361 00:13:12,050 --> 00:13:14,419 the NSA and 362 00:13:14,420 --> 00:13:16,159 its relationship with the corporate 363 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,319 world, with the telecom companies and 364 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,509 all that. I mean, this is NSA. 365 00:13:20,510 --> 00:13:22,729 It's the largest intelligence 366 00:13:22,730 --> 00:13:24,020 agency on earth. 367 00:13:25,310 --> 00:13:26,929 More than thirty seven thousand cars are 368 00:13:26,930 --> 00:13:27,859 registered there. 369 00:13:27,860 --> 00:13:29,149 It has its own post office. 370 00:13:29,150 --> 00:13:31,429 Seventy thousand pieces of mail a day. 371 00:13:31,430 --> 00:13:32,959 Thirty two miles of road. 372 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,159 You can't see this. 373 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,959 That whole complex from the road, it's 374 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,419 all hidden, but 375 00:13:38,420 --> 00:13:40,489 it's just one gigantic agency, 376 00:13:40,490 --> 00:13:41,490 the the 377 00:13:43,070 --> 00:13:45,199 headquarters itself, the US Capitol 378 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,119 Building can fit in there four times 379 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:48,049 over. 380 00:13:48,050 --> 00:13:51,319 So it's a monstrous agency, 381 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,630 but it didn't start out that way. 382 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,529 This is how it started out, that's 383 00:14:01,530 --> 00:14:03,269 one forty one East thirty seven Street in 384 00:14:03,270 --> 00:14:05,519 New York, that was the original 385 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,409 NSA. It was called the Black Chamber in 386 00:14:07,410 --> 00:14:08,410 1920. 387 00:14:10,140 --> 00:14:12,239 It was a four 388 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,369 story townhouse in Manhattan. 389 00:14:14,370 --> 00:14:16,739 The first floor was a cover. 390 00:14:16,740 --> 00:14:19,049 It was they made supposedly commercial 391 00:14:19,050 --> 00:14:21,119 codes. The top floor was 392 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:22,529 where this guy lived. 393 00:14:22,530 --> 00:14:24,539 He was the he was in charge. 394 00:14:24,540 --> 00:14:26,639 His name was really are the he was 395 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,470 the first head of the black chamber. 396 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,080 It started in 1920. 397 00:14:32,250 --> 00:14:34,199 Prior to that, there was World War One. 398 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,419 And during World War One, the US 399 00:14:36,420 --> 00:14:38,249 had censorship so they could get access 400 00:14:38,250 --> 00:14:40,529 to everybody's communications during 401 00:14:40,530 --> 00:14:41,530 wartime. 402 00:14:42,330 --> 00:14:44,699 But after the war, 403 00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:46,439 uh, censorship was ended. 404 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,659 So they had the once 405 00:14:48,660 --> 00:14:50,879 again, it was time 406 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,069 for privacy and in 407 00:14:53,070 --> 00:14:55,469 and the communications 408 00:14:55,470 --> 00:14:57,359 were not allowed to be intercepted by 409 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,249 anybody, including the government. 410 00:15:01,110 --> 00:15:02,669 But the government came in every once in 411 00:15:02,670 --> 00:15:05,039 a while and did some eavesdropping. 412 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,229 And that was the the way 413 00:15:07,230 --> 00:15:08,970 Herbert Yardley found it when he 414 00:15:10,380 --> 00:15:12,029 created the Black Chamber in nineteen 415 00:15:12,030 --> 00:15:14,219 twenty, he found he 416 00:15:14,220 --> 00:15:16,109 had no way to get access to all that 417 00:15:16,110 --> 00:15:18,239 information he had during World 418 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,639 War One. So the whole idea 419 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,069 was he had to make relationships 420 00:15:23,070 --> 00:15:24,419 with the telecom companies. 421 00:15:24,420 --> 00:15:26,819 This is the very first origin 422 00:15:26,820 --> 00:15:29,189 of the NSA, NSA, 423 00:15:29,190 --> 00:15:31,499 his predecessor having secret 424 00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:34,289 agreements with the telecom companies. 425 00:15:34,290 --> 00:15:36,359 And what Herbert early 426 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,519 did was he went to New 427 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:39,419 York City. 428 00:15:39,420 --> 00:15:41,489 He decided to knock on 429 00:15:41,490 --> 00:15:43,319 the doors of the telegraph companies. 430 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,149 This is back in those days. 431 00:15:45,150 --> 00:15:47,849 That was the email of the day telegrams. 432 00:15:47,850 --> 00:15:49,799 It's how people communicated 433 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,469 electronically with each other. 434 00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:54,299 So he wanted access to everybody's 435 00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:56,429 telegrams, just the way the NSA 436 00:15:56,430 --> 00:15:58,949 gets access to everybody's metadata, 437 00:15:58,950 --> 00:16:00,539 telephone calls, emails and all that 438 00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:01,379 today. 439 00:16:01,380 --> 00:16:03,539 Uh, so you hardly went to the, uh, the 440 00:16:03,540 --> 00:16:05,819 heads of the telecom companies 441 00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:07,619 and knock on their door. 442 00:16:07,620 --> 00:16:09,689 And at Western Union, for 443 00:16:09,690 --> 00:16:11,759 example, they said it was easier than 444 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:12,719 I imagined. 445 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,939 After the minute after 446 00:16:14,940 --> 00:16:16,589 we put all our cards on the table, 447 00:16:16,590 --> 00:16:18,989 President Carlton anxiously, 448 00:16:18,990 --> 00:16:20,669 uh, seemed anxious to do everything you 449 00:16:20,670 --> 00:16:21,239 could for us. 450 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,339 So no problem with Western Union. 451 00:16:23,340 --> 00:16:25,049 They, uh, despite the fact that it was 452 00:16:25,050 --> 00:16:27,449 against the law, they they 453 00:16:27,450 --> 00:16:28,979 cooperated with Yardley. 454 00:16:28,980 --> 00:16:30,600 Then he went across town 455 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,809 to the there were three big companies 456 00:16:33,810 --> 00:16:34,799 doing this at the time. 457 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,549 He went across the postal telegraph 458 00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:38,669 headquarters. That was the other big 459 00:16:38,670 --> 00:16:39,659 company doing it. 460 00:16:39,660 --> 00:16:41,189 They were a little bit more nervous and 461 00:16:41,190 --> 00:16:43,889 they actually had to cut out some lawyer 462 00:16:43,890 --> 00:16:46,049 that they had to deal with with Yardley 463 00:16:46,050 --> 00:16:48,029 because they were very afraid of getting 464 00:16:48,030 --> 00:16:49,030 arrested. 465 00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:51,270 And then he. 466 00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:56,529 Finally got all the cooperation of all 467 00:16:56,530 --> 00:16:57,640 the different companies 468 00:16:58,780 --> 00:16:59,780 and. 469 00:17:01,140 --> 00:17:02,729 All the companies began sending all their 470 00:17:02,730 --> 00:17:05,098 telegrams to NSA, 471 00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:07,289 just like NSA is getting all this 472 00:17:07,290 --> 00:17:09,598 email today back then. 473 00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:11,669 The companies cooperated and they 474 00:17:11,670 --> 00:17:14,219 began sending all their telegrams 475 00:17:14,220 --> 00:17:16,078 to the to the black chamber. 476 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:17,999 I'm not sure about the singing telegrams, 477 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:19,229 whether they made it there or not. 478 00:17:19,230 --> 00:17:21,328 But by the 479 00:17:21,329 --> 00:17:23,399 end of 1920, the Black Chamber 480 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,039 had the secret and illegal cooperation 481 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,919 of virtually the entire American 482 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,139 cable industry, the telegram 483 00:17:31,140 --> 00:17:32,140 industry. 484 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,389 But 1929, it all came to 485 00:17:39,390 --> 00:17:41,309 an end. Henry Simpson. 486 00:17:41,310 --> 00:17:43,150 Simpson was secretary of state. 487 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,319 He had no idea that the government 488 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:47,909 had a black chamber, that the government 489 00:17:47,910 --> 00:17:48,959 was actually doing all this 490 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,159 eavesdropping. 491 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,379 So as a result, he he shut 492 00:17:52,380 --> 00:17:56,009 down the black chamber in 1929 493 00:17:56,010 --> 00:17:58,349 and that put Herbert Yardley out of work. 494 00:17:59,370 --> 00:18:00,839 He'd been doing it for 10 years. 495 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,099 And now all of a sudden, he was out of a 496 00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:03,449 job. 497 00:18:03,450 --> 00:18:05,549 So he decided to become the world's 498 00:18:05,550 --> 00:18:07,520 first NSA whistleblower. 499 00:18:09,090 --> 00:18:11,489 So long before Yardley, 500 00:18:11,490 --> 00:18:13,559 long before Snowden, Herbert Yardley 501 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,539 became a whistle blower, he wrote a book 502 00:18:15,540 --> 00:18:17,499 called The American Black Chamber. 503 00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:19,079 I mean, the government was extremely 504 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,029 upset, but they had never heard of this 505 00:18:21,030 --> 00:18:22,499 before. Nobody had ever written the book 506 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:24,779 about secret things in government 507 00:18:24,780 --> 00:18:25,780 before. 508 00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:28,259 So they try to ban the book or they try 509 00:18:28,260 --> 00:18:29,519 to put them in jail. But there were no 510 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,049 laws at that time that could really do 511 00:18:31,050 --> 00:18:32,070 that. So 512 00:18:33,180 --> 00:18:35,789 he tried another book after that 513 00:18:35,790 --> 00:18:37,829 was called Japanese Diplomatic Secrets 514 00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:40,139 1921 in 1922. 515 00:18:40,140 --> 00:18:42,929 And he actually included real 516 00:18:42,930 --> 00:18:45,149 messages that he took from the Black 517 00:18:45,150 --> 00:18:46,199 Chamber in the book. 518 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,749 And the government got furious and they 519 00:18:48,750 --> 00:18:50,879 they secretly basically stole 520 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,409 his manuscript. 521 00:18:52,410 --> 00:18:54,599 And that manuscript was hidden 522 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,429 for years and years until I found that 523 00:18:56,430 --> 00:18:58,499 manuscript in government 524 00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:00,599 documents. Back in round 525 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:01,770 two, my book came out. 526 00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:09,349 So after they closed the black chamber, 527 00:19:09,350 --> 00:19:11,509 the NSA, there was no real 528 00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:13,789 NSA for a while because 529 00:19:13,790 --> 00:19:15,859 the black chamber was closed, but the 530 00:19:15,860 --> 00:19:17,899 British have been doing this for a very 531 00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:19,909 long time. I mean, the British have been 532 00:19:19,910 --> 00:19:22,159 eavesdropping on communications 533 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,210 around the world for 534 00:19:24,290 --> 00:19:25,559 virtually since the beginning of the 535 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,939 century, last century, 536 00:19:27,940 --> 00:19:29,359 maybe even before that. 537 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:31,759 This is a map from 538 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,859 one of the undersea cables, 539 00:19:33,860 --> 00:19:36,049 and that was how the British 540 00:19:36,050 --> 00:19:37,939 were able to eavesdrop on so much 541 00:19:37,940 --> 00:19:38,869 communications. 542 00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:40,939 I mean, this, again, didn't just start a 543 00:19:40,940 --> 00:19:42,289 few years ago. The British have been 544 00:19:42,290 --> 00:19:44,479 doing this for more than 100 545 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,549 years now because 546 00:19:46,550 --> 00:19:48,289 they owned all the cables around the 547 00:19:48,290 --> 00:19:50,359 world. That's those are all the cables 548 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:51,649 owned by the Brits. 549 00:19:51,650 --> 00:19:53,299 So if they own the cables around the 550 00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:54,859 world, they 551 00:19:56,570 --> 00:19:58,219 have an easy job of doing all the 552 00:19:58,220 --> 00:19:59,809 eavesdropping and they've been doing it 553 00:19:59,810 --> 00:20:01,159 ever since. 554 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:02,749 And then World War Two came. 555 00:20:02,750 --> 00:20:05,179 They are censorship again and once again 556 00:20:05,180 --> 00:20:07,159 they could eavesdrop because of 557 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,319 censorship. And then when World War Two 558 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,389 ended, the NSA 559 00:20:11,390 --> 00:20:13,039 was back in the same position where 560 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,769 Yeardley was all of a sudden 561 00:20:15,770 --> 00:20:16,879 censorship ended. 562 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,099 The the privacy laws came 563 00:20:19,100 --> 00:20:21,319 back into play and they were 564 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,629 without any kind of access 565 00:20:23,630 --> 00:20:26,019 to to the cables and the telegraph, 566 00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:27,619 the telecom companies. 567 00:20:27,620 --> 00:20:29,269 So instead of you, are they now you had 568 00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:30,890 this Brigadier General 569 00:20:31,940 --> 00:20:34,069 Preston Quartermain, who had to 570 00:20:34,070 --> 00:20:36,769 make the rounds up in New York. 571 00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:38,779 He had to go up there and they weren't as 572 00:20:38,780 --> 00:20:41,209 friendly as when you already found him. 573 00:20:41,210 --> 00:20:43,130 He was getting some resistance from 574 00:20:44,510 --> 00:20:46,879 a number of companies, including I.T. 575 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,469 They basically threw him out the door. 576 00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:50,569 They said they listen to their general 577 00:20:50,570 --> 00:20:52,009 counsel and they said this is against the 578 00:20:52,010 --> 00:20:53,659 law. What are you talking about? 579 00:20:53,660 --> 00:20:55,159 We're not going to give you our 580 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:56,160 telegrams. 581 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,699 So what he did was he walked across the 582 00:20:58,700 --> 00:21:01,039 street a couple blocks away 583 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,139 to Western Union headquarters 584 00:21:03,140 --> 00:21:05,029 and Western Union. 585 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,069 They weren't happy. 586 00:21:07,070 --> 00:21:08,420 Their general counsel 587 00:21:10,190 --> 00:21:11,659 didn't want him to do it, but they did 588 00:21:11,660 --> 00:21:14,119 agree, providing that the attorney 589 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:16,399 general of the United States secretly 590 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,469 approve it and then 591 00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:20,599 they they would cooperate 592 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,269 and give all their telegrams to 593 00:21:23,270 --> 00:21:24,229 the NSA. 594 00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:25,230 So then. 595 00:21:26,580 --> 00:21:28,799 Cornerman goes back 596 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,089 to it and basically, 597 00:21:31,090 --> 00:21:33,659 uh, intimidates them, says, 598 00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:35,699 look, you don't want to be the only 599 00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:37,679 company not cooperating with us, so we 600 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,789 just got Western Union cooperating. 601 00:21:39,790 --> 00:21:42,059 So then because of that, 602 00:21:42,060 --> 00:21:43,229 I.T. 603 00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:44,219 agreed again. 604 00:21:44,220 --> 00:21:46,799 They wanted cooperation 605 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,139 as long as they wanted a 606 00:21:49,140 --> 00:21:50,909 grant of immunity, secret grant of 607 00:21:50,910 --> 00:21:52,289 immunity from the attorney general in 608 00:21:52,290 --> 00:21:53,310 case they got caught. 609 00:21:58,290 --> 00:22:00,149 So then they went to RCA, the third 610 00:22:00,150 --> 00:22:02,640 biggest company doing all this, and. 611 00:22:05,610 --> 00:22:07,109 Going in there and saying the other two 612 00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:09,689 companies have cooperated, that 613 00:22:09,690 --> 00:22:12,179 that pretty much sealed it for RCA, 614 00:22:12,180 --> 00:22:14,369 they said, OK, you know, we'll do it 615 00:22:14,370 --> 00:22:15,879 because the other companies are doing it. 616 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,119 But again, we want this this letter 617 00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:20,190 from the from the attorney general, 618 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,219 because they're very they were very 619 00:22:23,220 --> 00:22:25,229 afraid of being prosecuted. 620 00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:27,479 This is how the NSA 621 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:28,349 got the material. 622 00:22:28,350 --> 00:22:30,449 They they 623 00:22:30,450 --> 00:22:33,179 set up the secret office in New York. 624 00:22:33,180 --> 00:22:35,219 They had it masqueraded as a television 625 00:22:35,220 --> 00:22:36,959 tape processing company. 626 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,209 And every night, just 627 00:22:39,210 --> 00:22:40,829 after midnight, somebody would go to the 628 00:22:40,830 --> 00:22:42,959 back door, the telecom companies, 629 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,059 and ask for 630 00:22:45,060 --> 00:22:47,609 the the all the the 631 00:22:47,610 --> 00:22:49,499 the communications for that day, all the 632 00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:51,719 telegrams coming into the country, going 633 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:52,979 out of the country are going through the 634 00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:53,939 company. 635 00:22:53,940 --> 00:22:56,039 And they would take 636 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,169 them, take the tapes 637 00:22:58,170 --> 00:23:00,389 back to the the phony 638 00:23:00,390 --> 00:23:02,339 television tape processing company. 639 00:23:02,340 --> 00:23:05,369 They make duplicates of all those 640 00:23:05,370 --> 00:23:07,769 telegrams, millions of telegrams. 641 00:23:07,770 --> 00:23:10,169 And then they send them down 642 00:23:10,170 --> 00:23:12,359 to they make a copy. 643 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:15,119 They take the original back to the 644 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:17,279 company before the day shift came in, 645 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:18,809 before the morning shift, because it was 646 00:23:18,810 --> 00:23:20,279 only the midnight shift that knew this 647 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:21,569 was going on. 648 00:23:21,570 --> 00:23:23,099 And and then they send 649 00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:27,449 the dupes down to NSA 650 00:23:27,450 --> 00:23:29,039 and they put them through this huge 651 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:29,639 computer. 652 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,099 It was the biggest, fastest, 653 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:34,229 most powerful computer at the time. 654 00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:36,239 It was appropriately called the Harvest 655 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:37,589 Computer, because that's what it did. 656 00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:39,839 It harvested all the names 657 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,269 of everybody. They were looking for 658 00:23:42,270 --> 00:23:44,189 names of people. They were looking for 659 00:23:44,190 --> 00:23:45,869 words, phrases, whatever they were 660 00:23:45,870 --> 00:23:46,870 looking for. 661 00:23:47,850 --> 00:23:50,039 The computer would go all through these, 662 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:51,299 you know, law school. 663 00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:53,759 We're told that if you're 664 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,679 in the government, you want to get access 665 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,779 summaries, telegram. 666 00:23:57,780 --> 00:24:00,059 You have to go to a judge and an 667 00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:01,979 impartial judge and present probable 668 00:24:01,980 --> 00:24:04,259 cause and so forth. 669 00:24:04,260 --> 00:24:05,519 Never occurred to NSA. 670 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,609 They just got everybody's telegram and 671 00:24:08,610 --> 00:24:10,020 without any kind of a warrant. 672 00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:19,309 So, you know, these companies are getting 673 00:24:19,310 --> 00:24:20,390 very nervous here, 674 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,139 Sarnoff from RCA, for example, 675 00:24:24,140 --> 00:24:25,879 and Western Union, these other companies 676 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,249 are getting very, very nervous that 677 00:24:28,250 --> 00:24:29,719 that they're doing this because it is 678 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:30,739 totally illegal. And they didn't 679 00:24:30,740 --> 00:24:32,839 particularly want to go to jail 680 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,879 and they were getting worried because 681 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,589 they weren't getting this letter that had 682 00:24:36,590 --> 00:24:38,689 been promised from the attorney general 683 00:24:38,690 --> 00:24:40,819 and they were thinking that there may 684 00:24:40,820 --> 00:24:42,389 be getting steamrolled here. 685 00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:44,539 And one of these days, you know, New York 686 00:24:44,540 --> 00:24:46,429 Times is going to come up with a story 687 00:24:46,430 --> 00:24:48,739 and they're going to head off to 688 00:24:48,740 --> 00:24:50,159 court for prosecution. 689 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,279 So so instead 690 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,469 of this letter, Dwight 691 00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:56,599 Eisenhower was a five star general 692 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,089 at the time. He was chief of staff of the 693 00:24:59,090 --> 00:25:00,889 of the US Army. 694 00:25:00,890 --> 00:25:03,019 He sent a letter of appreciation to 695 00:25:03,020 --> 00:25:04,969 him. I mean, it didn't really mean much, 696 00:25:04,970 --> 00:25:06,559 but that's best they could do at the 697 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:07,560 time. 698 00:25:08,540 --> 00:25:10,369 That's Eisenhower. 699 00:25:10,370 --> 00:25:11,899 And again, this is when Truman was 700 00:25:11,900 --> 00:25:12,900 president. 701 00:25:14,380 --> 00:25:15,380 So. 702 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,929 It didn't do much good, the heads of the 703 00:25:18,930 --> 00:25:21,249 telecom companies are still very nervous, 704 00:25:21,250 --> 00:25:22,439 they were very afraid that 705 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:25,379 they were going to go to jail. 706 00:25:25,380 --> 00:25:28,559 So they were putting more pressure on 707 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,929 on the Pentagon basically 708 00:25:30,930 --> 00:25:32,460 to come up with some kind of a 709 00:25:33,540 --> 00:25:35,189 guarantee that they weren't going to be 710 00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:36,190 prosecuted. 711 00:25:42,780 --> 00:25:44,099 What happened was that the 712 00:25:45,570 --> 00:25:47,729 forest was was the 713 00:25:47,730 --> 00:25:50,129 secretary of defense at the time and 714 00:25:50,130 --> 00:25:52,269 forests, first of all, had a meeting with 715 00:25:52,270 --> 00:25:54,629 them and he told them he was speaking 716 00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:55,529 for the president. 717 00:25:55,530 --> 00:25:57,659 And as long as the attorney general was 718 00:25:57,660 --> 00:25:59,879 in office, he could guarantee or 719 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:01,499 he could give assurances anyway that the 720 00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:03,329 Department of Justice would do everything 721 00:26:03,330 --> 00:26:05,399 in his power to keep them out of 722 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,589 jail, didn't make them feel too good, but 723 00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:08,760 it was better than nothing. 724 00:26:10,650 --> 00:26:12,329 But they still wanted something in 725 00:26:12,330 --> 00:26:13,979 writing something from the government 726 00:26:13,980 --> 00:26:16,079 that said that, look, what we're doing 727 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,299 here is is 728 00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:20,430 on behalf of the president or somebody. 729 00:26:22,140 --> 00:26:23,400 The problem was that 730 00:26:25,140 --> 00:26:27,269 the only person that knew what they were 731 00:26:27,270 --> 00:26:29,339 doing basically was 732 00:26:29,340 --> 00:26:31,919 Forestar, the secretary of defense, 733 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,640 and all of a sudden he resigned. 734 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,930 Not only that, a few weeks later, 735 00:26:38,550 --> 00:26:40,829 he was in a hospital 736 00:26:40,830 --> 00:26:43,529 in the hospital for psychiatric 737 00:26:43,530 --> 00:26:44,609 examination. 738 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,539 And then he put a sash around his neck 739 00:26:48,540 --> 00:26:50,939 and jumped out of the 16th 740 00:26:50,940 --> 00:26:53,460 floor window of Bethesda Naval Hospital. 741 00:26:56,030 --> 00:26:57,559 Among the people that were very worried 742 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,959 were the people in the telecom companies, 743 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:02,329 but four days earlier, 744 00:27:02,330 --> 00:27:04,909 luckily, they had met with 745 00:27:04,910 --> 00:27:06,889 the person who took for ourselves place, 746 00:27:06,890 --> 00:27:09,439 Louis Johnson, and 747 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,539 and he 748 00:27:11,540 --> 00:27:12,889 gave them the assurances that the 749 00:27:12,890 --> 00:27:15,109 attorney general and the president 750 00:27:15,110 --> 00:27:16,849 had both approved this 751 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,209 and they were presented 752 00:27:20,210 --> 00:27:21,829 a memorandum. 753 00:27:21,830 --> 00:27:24,209 And the memorandum was actually 754 00:27:24,210 --> 00:27:26,959 it wasn't signed by Truman, 755 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,089 but it was initialed by Truman 756 00:27:29,090 --> 00:27:31,329 or initialed that he had 757 00:27:31,330 --> 00:27:34,519 been okayed by the president, Tom Clark, 758 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:35,479 and that was it. 759 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,729 That's the last time the telecom 760 00:27:37,730 --> 00:27:39,799 chiefs ever sought assurances. 761 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,309 But it did indicate that at least the 762 00:27:42,310 --> 00:27:44,629 the knowledge of this one is high is 763 00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:46,009 true. And the fact that they were doing 764 00:27:46,010 --> 00:27:47,010 this illegal 765 00:27:48,350 --> 00:27:49,970 eavesdropping on everybody's 766 00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:52,609 telecom communications. 767 00:27:56,980 --> 00:27:58,180 So, uh. 768 00:27:59,310 --> 00:28:01,139 Nobody knew anything about this until the 769 00:28:01,140 --> 00:28:02,729 church committee that was in nineteen 770 00:28:02,730 --> 00:28:04,679 seventy five, the church committee had 771 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,839 this investigation, they found out that 772 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,959 NSA had been doing this and 773 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,359 I had testified in executive session 774 00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:14,189 before the church committee, as I 775 00:28:14,190 --> 00:28:15,900 mentioned earlier, my little part. 776 00:28:16,950 --> 00:28:19,379 And they, you know, did a really good job 777 00:28:19,380 --> 00:28:21,479 of looking into what NSA was doing 778 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,069 in terms of spying. 779 00:28:23,070 --> 00:28:24,599 But there were still somewhat 780 00:28:26,610 --> 00:28:28,829 of falling in line 781 00:28:28,830 --> 00:28:30,059 with regard to NSA. 782 00:28:30,060 --> 00:28:32,010 NSA was saying, please, please don't 783 00:28:33,570 --> 00:28:34,979 say much about all this stuff. 784 00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:37,709 So they only had one day of hearings 785 00:28:37,710 --> 00:28:39,839 on NSA and it was the director of 786 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,809 NSA that was called to testify. 787 00:28:42,810 --> 00:28:44,579 But they never really got into the 788 00:28:44,580 --> 00:28:46,739 telecoms, what the telecoms 789 00:28:46,740 --> 00:28:47,849 were doing. 790 00:28:47,850 --> 00:28:49,859 The only person that did that was this 791 00:28:49,860 --> 00:28:51,269 woman, Bella Abzug. 792 00:28:51,270 --> 00:28:53,819 I mean, she was she was like 793 00:28:53,820 --> 00:28:56,309 the ultimate tarah in Congress. 794 00:28:56,310 --> 00:28:58,469 You never, ever wanted to cross Bella 795 00:28:58,470 --> 00:29:00,779 Abzug. I mean, she was just the most 796 00:29:00,780 --> 00:29:02,969 ferocious person in Congress. 797 00:29:02,970 --> 00:29:04,719 So she got very angry. 798 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,359 The church committee wasn't looking into 799 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,219 the companies, the companies that were 800 00:29:08,220 --> 00:29:10,439 doing all this, all this 801 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,659 eavesdropping illegally. 802 00:29:12,660 --> 00:29:14,459 So she decided to hold a hearing 803 00:29:15,510 --> 00:29:17,909 and she was going to call the 804 00:29:17,910 --> 00:29:19,979 all the telecom chiefs to 805 00:29:19,980 --> 00:29:21,449 a public hearing and say, what have you 806 00:29:21,450 --> 00:29:23,189 been doing? Would you cooperate with what 807 00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:24,330 have you given to the government? 808 00:29:30,750 --> 00:29:33,149 And at the time, Jerry Ford was president 809 00:29:33,150 --> 00:29:34,979 and there were two people that really 810 00:29:34,980 --> 00:29:37,079 were stopping her from holding a hearing 811 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,059 and they were trying to impeach her in 812 00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:41,159 every way possible, you'll never guess 813 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,160 who they were. 814 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,299 One was a guy named Donald Rumsfeld who 815 00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:47,279 was secretary of defense at the time. 816 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,169 Another guy you may have heard of before, 817 00:29:49,170 --> 00:29:50,280 his name was Dick Cheney. 818 00:29:52,170 --> 00:29:54,329 So they they did everything 819 00:29:54,330 --> 00:29:56,489 they could to try to stop Bella 820 00:29:56,490 --> 00:29:58,289 Abzug from holding this hearing of the 821 00:29:58,290 --> 00:29:59,310 telecom chiefs. 822 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,649 And they went so far as to 823 00:30:05,650 --> 00:30:08,169 issue executive privilege 824 00:30:08,170 --> 00:30:09,759 against the companies, I mean, this has 825 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,199 never been done before. Nobody ever heard 826 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,599 of how can you issue executive privilege 827 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,279 against a company, you know, we issued 828 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,829 against the the CIA 829 00:30:17,830 --> 00:30:20,169 or the NSA or the FBI or whoever, but not 830 00:30:20,170 --> 00:30:21,659 private companies. 831 00:30:21,660 --> 00:30:24,039 Uh, so for the first time in history, 832 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,379 Ford, at the 833 00:30:26,380 --> 00:30:28,599 suggestions of Rumsfeld and Cheney, 834 00:30:29,830 --> 00:30:31,659 issued executive privilege to keep the 835 00:30:31,660 --> 00:30:33,819 companies from testifying in 836 00:30:33,820 --> 00:30:36,429 public. And Bella Abzug 837 00:30:36,430 --> 00:30:37,430 hearing. 838 00:30:38,750 --> 00:30:41,119 But the companies 839 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,069 were more afraid of Bella Abzug than they 840 00:30:43,070 --> 00:30:45,199 were Cheney, Rumsfeld and 841 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,200 Ford. 842 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,449 So they are they all 843 00:30:56,450 --> 00:30:58,369 took the stand, they all testified, they 844 00:30:58,370 --> 00:31:00,619 told basically what what 845 00:31:00,620 --> 00:31:02,059 the NSA had been making them do. 846 00:31:02,060 --> 00:31:04,489 They even gave a list of the targets 847 00:31:04,490 --> 00:31:05,599 and everything else. So it was really 848 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,759 amazing. I 849 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,379 really have to hand it to Bella Abzug. 850 00:31:09,380 --> 00:31:11,749 She really got 851 00:31:11,750 --> 00:31:13,249 a lot more out of these people than 852 00:31:13,250 --> 00:31:14,629 anybody else I think would have at the 853 00:31:14,630 --> 00:31:15,630 time. 854 00:31:19,490 --> 00:31:21,769 So one of the reforms that came out of 855 00:31:21,770 --> 00:31:23,929 the church committee and 856 00:31:23,930 --> 00:31:26,209 Bella Abzug and all that was creation 857 00:31:26,210 --> 00:31:27,559 of the FISA court, the Foreign 858 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:28,819 Intelligence Surveillance Court, which 859 00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:31,939 everybody's heard of now, a 860 00:31:31,940 --> 00:31:33,839 few years ago, hardly anybody ever heard 861 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:34,840 of the FISA court 862 00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:36,990 and. 863 00:31:38,260 --> 00:31:39,689 These are the judges here. 864 00:31:39,690 --> 00:31:41,649 They're there sort. 865 00:31:41,650 --> 00:31:43,509 This is a rosé where they wear them over 866 00:31:43,510 --> 00:31:45,699 the tops of their heads so nobody can 867 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:46,700 see who they are. 868 00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:51,099 But the FISA court was created and 869 00:31:51,100 --> 00:31:52,929 basically became a rubber stamp. 870 00:31:52,930 --> 00:31:55,179 They this is where they 871 00:31:55,180 --> 00:31:57,309 hang out the third floor supposed 872 00:31:57,310 --> 00:31:58,749 to be secret where they're hanging out. 873 00:31:58,750 --> 00:32:00,969 But they their office is on the third 874 00:32:00,970 --> 00:32:03,159 floor of the federal 875 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:04,720 court building in Washington. 876 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,259 Few people have actually been inside 877 00:32:08,260 --> 00:32:10,659 that. I did manage to get one picture 878 00:32:10,660 --> 00:32:12,249 inside the court. 879 00:32:12,250 --> 00:32:14,289 The court in session never been seen 880 00:32:14,290 --> 00:32:16,839 before shortly here. 881 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,729 These are the these are the judges right 882 00:32:18,730 --> 00:32:19,730 here. 883 00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:27,100 They 884 00:32:28,350 --> 00:32:30,689 you can see they they really 885 00:32:30,690 --> 00:32:32,939 don't want to know what they're doing 886 00:32:32,940 --> 00:32:34,289 or what they're signing, but they 887 00:32:34,290 --> 00:32:36,839 Rubber-Stamp like thirty thousand 888 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,909 warrants, I think they only rejected two 889 00:32:38,910 --> 00:32:40,469 in 30 years. 890 00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:42,779 But that was sort of the reform. 891 00:32:42,780 --> 00:32:45,749 And for 30 years, from 1978 892 00:32:45,750 --> 00:32:49,109 until 2001, 893 00:32:49,110 --> 00:32:50,729 there weren't really that many problems. 894 00:32:50,730 --> 00:32:52,919 They just rubber stamped everything and 895 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,639 everything sort of went normally until 896 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:57,750 until this happened, 897 00:32:58,860 --> 00:33:01,040 until cleared out Menar. 898 00:33:02,340 --> 00:33:04,199 This is a place very few people have 899 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,179 been. I'm I think one of the very few 900 00:33:06,180 --> 00:33:07,180 people 901 00:33:08,850 --> 00:33:10,499 have been there and lived to tell about 902 00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:12,659 it. This is actually Osama bin 903 00:33:12,660 --> 00:33:15,329 Laden's operational center in Yemen 904 00:33:15,330 --> 00:33:17,849 outside of outside of Sana'a. 905 00:33:17,850 --> 00:33:19,949 I did a documentary for PBS 906 00:33:19,950 --> 00:33:21,989 and we went there and filmed it. 907 00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:24,329 This is where actually all the operations 908 00:33:24,330 --> 00:33:26,879 took place, where the people were 909 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,399 kind of trained, where they were based. 910 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,559 And it was bin Laden's communications 911 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:32,549 center. 912 00:33:32,550 --> 00:33:34,649 He didn't bin Laden 913 00:33:34,650 --> 00:33:36,629 would communicate to the house from 914 00:33:36,630 --> 00:33:38,819 Afghanistan where most 915 00:33:38,820 --> 00:33:40,650 of the operations were being planned. 916 00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:44,129 And and then 917 00:33:44,130 --> 00:33:45,819 the people in the house, Khalid Ahmed 918 00:33:45,820 --> 00:33:48,839 Shah, was married to the 919 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,819 daughter of the owner of the house and he 920 00:33:50,820 --> 00:33:51,869 lived there. 921 00:33:51,870 --> 00:33:54,239 And Khalid Ahmed Shah and Nawaf 922 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,670 Alhazmi were the first two terrorists. 923 00:33:57,750 --> 00:33:59,549 What's interesting is that NSA had been 924 00:33:59,550 --> 00:34:02,219 eavesdropping on that house for years. 925 00:34:02,220 --> 00:34:03,569 They were eavesdropping on everything 926 00:34:03,570 --> 00:34:04,829 that went in and everything that came 927 00:34:04,830 --> 00:34:07,019 out. Bin Laden used a satellite 928 00:34:07,020 --> 00:34:08,609 phone that was never encrypted, 929 00:34:09,929 --> 00:34:11,519 and so they were just eavesdropping on 930 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:12,779 the house. 931 00:34:12,780 --> 00:34:15,360 So the whole 9/11 932 00:34:16,469 --> 00:34:18,749 activity took place. 933 00:34:18,750 --> 00:34:20,849 There are the first indication of 9/11 934 00:34:20,850 --> 00:34:23,249 took place in December 935 00:34:23,250 --> 00:34:24,329 of 1999. 936 00:34:24,330 --> 00:34:26,099 That was when a phone call was made from 937 00:34:26,100 --> 00:34:28,769 bin Laden to that house saying 938 00:34:28,770 --> 00:34:31,919 send Khalid and Nawaf 939 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,738 to Kuala Lumpur for the big meeting. 940 00:34:34,739 --> 00:34:37,138 And that was the first tip off 941 00:34:37,139 --> 00:34:39,619 of of of 9/11. 942 00:34:39,620 --> 00:34:40,739 NSA had picked it up. 943 00:34:42,790 --> 00:34:44,979 So NSA is kind of known about 944 00:34:44,980 --> 00:34:46,718 these guys since the very beginning, 945 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,539 since nineteen ninety nine, 946 00:34:49,540 --> 00:34:51,519 December ninety nine, when this meeting 947 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,279 was set up and 948 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,229 these were the terrorists, they came to 949 00:34:56,230 --> 00:34:59,019 the United States and so forth, km 950 00:34:59,020 --> 00:35:01,749 Nawaf Alhazmi were the first to. 951 00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:04,179 And so the NSA finally 952 00:35:04,180 --> 00:35:06,249 after after a 953 00:35:06,250 --> 00:35:08,709 couple of years, finally realized 954 00:35:08,710 --> 00:35:10,989 the in the last month or so 955 00:35:10,990 --> 00:35:13,209 that these guys were 956 00:35:13,210 --> 00:35:15,159 in the United States and they had this 957 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,469 mad scramble to try to find them. 958 00:35:17,470 --> 00:35:20,199 I mean, they they they basically 959 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,359 ignored the intelligence up until 960 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,519 that time they were eavesdropping on 961 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,229 them even while they were in the United 962 00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:28,359 States Clete ometer. 963 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,189 He was in San Diego and he was actually 964 00:35:30,190 --> 00:35:31,809 coming back to that house. 965 00:35:31,810 --> 00:35:33,129 So NSA was picking up that 966 00:35:33,130 --> 00:35:34,130 communications. 967 00:35:36,010 --> 00:35:38,449 So these guys had to find someplace. 968 00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:40,359 So the crew that was going to blow up the 969 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,549 Pentagon had to find someplace to make 970 00:35:42,550 --> 00:35:44,889 their headquarters for like 971 00:35:44,890 --> 00:35:46,689 six weeks before the attack. 972 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,649 And at the same time, NASA is looking 973 00:35:51,650 --> 00:35:54,169 for him everywhere at this time, like 974 00:35:54,170 --> 00:35:56,119 three weeks or so before the attack, they 975 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,259 suddenly realize, you know, 976 00:35:58,260 --> 00:36:00,049 oh God, we've got to find where some of 977 00:36:00,050 --> 00:36:01,189 these guys are. I think they're 978 00:36:01,190 --> 00:36:02,599 terrorists. 979 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,059 And so so the terrorists 980 00:36:05,060 --> 00:36:06,590 set up their their 981 00:36:07,850 --> 00:36:10,249 headquarters at this place 982 00:36:10,250 --> 00:36:11,479 here. 983 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,029 It was called the Valencia Motel. 984 00:36:14,030 --> 00:36:16,159 And it happened to be in a place 985 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,289 called Laurel, Maryland, which happened 986 00:36:18,290 --> 00:36:20,569 to be just 987 00:36:20,570 --> 00:36:22,669 two miles from NASA headquarters. 988 00:36:23,810 --> 00:36:25,159 I've actually been in the director's 989 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:26,899 office at NSA. 990 00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:28,070 I've interviewed 991 00:36:29,390 --> 00:36:31,219 General Hayden there one time for one of 992 00:36:31,220 --> 00:36:33,409 my books, and you can almost see 993 00:36:33,410 --> 00:36:35,689 the Valencia Motel from his office, 994 00:36:35,690 --> 00:36:36,690 so. 995 00:36:43,540 --> 00:36:44,540 These guys were 996 00:36:46,150 --> 00:36:48,369 going to the same gyms that the NSA 997 00:36:48,370 --> 00:36:49,899 people were going to and Laurel, they 998 00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:52,569 were shopping in the same supermarkets 999 00:36:52,570 --> 00:36:54,519 and NSA is looking all over for them. 1000 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:55,539 You know, they're eavesdropping on 1001 00:36:55,540 --> 00:36:57,189 everybody, but they can't find them. 1002 00:36:57,190 --> 00:36:59,229 And and they're right down the street, 1003 00:36:59,230 --> 00:37:01,509 literally down the street, 1004 00:37:01,510 --> 00:37:02,510 so. 1005 00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:05,639 After. 1006 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:08,910 After 9/11, 1007 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,239 George Bush decided, you know, 1008 00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:14,309 he can't trust the FISA court anymore, 1009 00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:16,769 so he decided to bypass 1010 00:37:16,770 --> 00:37:19,139 the FISA court and do all the 1011 00:37:19,140 --> 00:37:21,509 begin the whole program of warrantless 1012 00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:23,789 eavesdropping, which 1013 00:37:23,790 --> 00:37:25,859 became a stellar win. 1014 00:37:25,860 --> 00:37:26,860 And 1015 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,569 one of the things that came out in one of 1016 00:37:30,570 --> 00:37:32,339 the first documents that Snowden actually 1017 00:37:32,340 --> 00:37:34,199 the first document that was released from 1018 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:35,729 the Snowden archive 1019 00:37:36,930 --> 00:37:39,209 was the inspector general's report 1020 00:37:39,210 --> 00:37:41,309 on on Stellar Wind. 1021 00:37:41,310 --> 00:37:43,619 And what it showed was 1022 00:37:43,620 --> 00:37:46,349 that not only 1023 00:37:46,350 --> 00:37:48,809 did they like back in Yardley's 1024 00:37:48,810 --> 00:37:50,879 day and back after World War Two, where 1025 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,889 they had to go and get the telecom 1026 00:37:52,890 --> 00:37:55,349 companies to cooperate, 1027 00:37:55,350 --> 00:37:57,449 AT&T actually volunteered 1028 00:37:57,450 --> 00:37:59,759 before they were even asked. 1029 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,919 They call up the NSA and they said, can 1030 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:03,359 we do something? 1031 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,669 You know, would you like our our material 1032 00:38:05,670 --> 00:38:07,909 here? And and 1033 00:38:07,910 --> 00:38:08,910 NSA was sort of 1034 00:38:10,770 --> 00:38:12,929 shocked because this is even before they 1035 00:38:12,930 --> 00:38:15,869 started the warrantless eavesdropping. 1036 00:38:15,870 --> 00:38:18,329 And so at NSA, they were saying, well, 1037 00:38:18,330 --> 00:38:19,229 how should we do this? 1038 00:38:19,230 --> 00:38:21,089 I mean, we've never had somebody offer 1039 00:38:21,090 --> 00:38:22,889 some company offers all this material 1040 00:38:22,890 --> 00:38:25,109 before. So then they finally figured 1041 00:38:25,110 --> 00:38:27,479 out some some phony legal 1042 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,609 authorization from 1043 00:38:29,610 --> 00:38:31,439 John Yoo at the Justice Department and so 1044 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,659 forth. And that was the beginning 1045 00:38:33,660 --> 00:38:35,969 of the warrantless eavesdropping in the 1046 00:38:35,970 --> 00:38:38,429 secret room and in 1047 00:38:38,430 --> 00:38:41,579 in San Francisco's 1048 00:38:41,580 --> 00:38:42,600 telecom center. 1049 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,229 And then from there, they went 1050 00:38:47,230 --> 00:38:49,509 to the cable companies and it's a little 1051 00:38:49,510 --> 00:38:51,729 less clear what the cooperation was 1052 00:38:51,730 --> 00:38:53,859 because they had PRISM, 1053 00:38:53,860 --> 00:38:56,289 the PRISM program 1054 00:38:56,290 --> 00:38:58,119 where they went in the front door, 1055 00:38:58,120 --> 00:38:59,120 basically was 1056 00:39:00,730 --> 00:39:02,380 sort of legal papers, 1057 00:39:03,670 --> 00:39:05,529 FISA warrants, things like that. 1058 00:39:05,530 --> 00:39:07,959 And then they had the operation 1059 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,539 muscular, where they secretly tap the 1060 00:39:10,540 --> 00:39:12,789 unencrypted cables between the 1061 00:39:12,790 --> 00:39:14,889 the data centers and so 1062 00:39:14,890 --> 00:39:15,789 forth. 1063 00:39:15,790 --> 00:39:18,009 So, again, we never 1064 00:39:18,010 --> 00:39:20,499 would have learned about any of that 1065 00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:22,749 without the help 1066 00:39:22,750 --> 00:39:24,009 of these people here. 1067 00:39:24,010 --> 00:39:26,199 Bill Bennett, I 1068 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:27,969 was the first one really to interview 1069 00:39:27,970 --> 00:39:30,309 Bill Binney. I put him in a cover 1070 00:39:30,310 --> 00:39:33,309 story I did for Wired magazine on the 1071 00:39:33,310 --> 00:39:35,530 on the big data center in Utah. 1072 00:39:36,580 --> 00:39:39,459 And, you know, Bill Bennett is a real 1073 00:39:39,460 --> 00:39:40,869 hero to me. 1074 00:39:40,870 --> 00:39:42,639 I interviewed him and he was a senior 1075 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:43,899 official at NSA. 1076 00:39:43,900 --> 00:39:46,719 And I said, look, you know, 1077 00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:48,969 I could say senior government official 1078 00:39:48,970 --> 00:39:50,199 or source or whatever. 1079 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:51,580 You know, I don't have to use your name 1080 00:39:53,020 --> 00:39:54,429 because you're going to be in a lot of 1081 00:39:54,430 --> 00:39:55,569 trouble possibly. 1082 00:39:55,570 --> 00:39:57,279 And he says, no, I wanted my name in 1083 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,349 there. So I 1084 00:39:59,350 --> 00:40:00,519 left his name in there. 1085 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,739 And he's been, you know, 1086 00:40:02,740 --> 00:40:05,169 one of the the shining 1087 00:40:05,170 --> 00:40:06,699 light team before Snowden 1088 00:40:08,890 --> 00:40:10,959 telling what went on at NSA in terms 1089 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,609 of the warrantless eavesdropping. 1090 00:40:12,610 --> 00:40:14,679 So I've got a lot of admiration for him. 1091 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,949 And then Tom Drake, I 1092 00:40:17,950 --> 00:40:19,419 was on his legal team. 1093 00:40:19,420 --> 00:40:21,250 The legal team hired me to be the 1094 00:40:23,260 --> 00:40:25,689 legal consultant, and 1095 00:40:25,690 --> 00:40:27,760 he was facing 35 years in prison 1096 00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:30,969 for cooperating with Siobhan 1097 00:40:30,970 --> 00:40:32,979 Gordon, The Baltimore Sun. 1098 00:40:32,980 --> 00:40:35,349 At the time, the NSA 1099 00:40:35,350 --> 00:40:36,999 wanted to use him as a 1100 00:40:38,260 --> 00:40:40,629 as an example to all the other NSA people 1101 00:40:40,630 --> 00:40:42,789 saying if you ever 1102 00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:44,439 even think about leaking, this is what's 1103 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:45,489 going to happen to you. 1104 00:40:45,490 --> 00:40:47,839 So thirty five years in prison, 1105 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,510 the rest of his life, basically. 1106 00:40:51,220 --> 00:40:53,829 But when I looked at the the 1107 00:40:53,830 --> 00:40:56,019 case, I said, look, a lot of this 1108 00:40:56,020 --> 00:40:58,599 stuff is probably in the public domain. 1109 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,089 So I spent three months searching 1110 00:41:01,090 --> 00:41:03,159 through everything in the public domain. 1111 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,349 And I came up with two 1112 00:41:05,350 --> 00:41:07,569 big binders of virtually 1113 00:41:07,570 --> 00:41:09,279 all the material that they were charging 1114 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,349 him with as being top secret. 1115 00:41:11,350 --> 00:41:13,749 So after we did that 1116 00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:15,939 and I was able to show not only was this 1117 00:41:15,940 --> 00:41:18,159 information in the public domain, but 1118 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:19,539 have been placed there by the government 1119 00:41:19,540 --> 00:41:22,659 itself, by a speech by 1120 00:41:22,660 --> 00:41:24,609 Mike Hayden or whatever. 1121 00:41:24,610 --> 00:41:26,619 And once we presented that to the judge 1122 00:41:26,620 --> 00:41:29,289 and the prosecutors and having, 1123 00:41:29,290 --> 00:41:31,359 you know, actually worked on a number 1124 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,129 of espionage cases over the years, I had 1125 00:41:33,130 --> 00:41:34,809 never seen anything like this. 1126 00:41:34,810 --> 00:41:37,149 They actually came back and they dropped 1127 00:41:37,150 --> 00:41:39,099 the case. They dropped the whole case 1128 00:41:39,100 --> 00:41:40,100 against 1129 00:41:41,260 --> 00:41:42,429 Tom Drake. 1130 00:41:42,430 --> 00:41:44,499 It's never happened in an espionage case. 1131 00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:46,629 And they said, we'll drop the 1132 00:41:46,630 --> 00:41:48,969 case. All you have to do is just sign 1133 00:41:48,970 --> 00:41:51,219 this little piece of paper saying 1134 00:41:51,220 --> 00:41:52,220 you agreed to 1135 00:41:54,220 --> 00:41:55,220 saying that you 1136 00:41:56,860 --> 00:41:58,669 plead guilty to a misdemeanor. 1137 00:41:58,670 --> 00:42:00,249 It was actually less than a parking 1138 00:42:00,250 --> 00:42:02,409 ticket because there is no fine and no 1139 00:42:02,410 --> 00:42:03,410 jail time. 1140 00:42:04,300 --> 00:42:06,429 So I 1141 00:42:06,430 --> 00:42:07,449 was really happy to see that. 1142 00:42:07,450 --> 00:42:08,919 And Kirk Wiebe. 1143 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,169 Yeah. I mean, Tom went through 1144 00:42:11,170 --> 00:42:12,170 hell. 1145 00:42:14,190 --> 00:42:16,199 And Tom's been speaking out ever since. 1146 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,419 So, again, these are all my heroes 1147 00:42:18,420 --> 00:42:20,519 here, and Kirk Wiebe was working with 1148 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,589 Bill Binney and he helped me 1149 00:42:22,590 --> 00:42:24,659 also. And then Chelsea 1150 00:42:24,660 --> 00:42:27,389 Manning, of course, he you know, he 1151 00:42:27,390 --> 00:42:29,489 people don't realize the trauma 1152 00:42:29,490 --> 00:42:31,259 you go through when you're actually in 1153 00:42:31,260 --> 00:42:32,309 combat and you watch 1154 00:42:33,570 --> 00:42:36,659 people gunned down, innocent civilians 1155 00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:38,909 gunned down. And that's what got 1156 00:42:38,910 --> 00:42:40,080 Chelsea Manning to 1157 00:42:41,460 --> 00:42:43,119 decide to become a whistleblower. 1158 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:44,120 And there were 1159 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,459 just enormous amounts of 1160 00:42:47,460 --> 00:42:48,899 information that came out from some of 1161 00:42:48,900 --> 00:42:50,819 these documents. And then, of course, as 1162 00:42:50,820 --> 00:42:53,099 Snowden and there's never 1163 00:42:53,100 --> 00:42:54,629 been anybody like Ed Snowden. 1164 00:42:54,630 --> 00:42:55,619 I hope there's a lot of people that 1165 00:42:55,620 --> 00:42:57,239 follow in his footsteps. 1166 00:42:57,240 --> 00:42:59,879 But the information 1167 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,309 that he had was just astounding. 1168 00:43:02,310 --> 00:43:04,289 I've written about NSA for 30 years. 1169 00:43:04,290 --> 00:43:06,239 I just couldn't believe half the stuff 1170 00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:07,649 that was coming out from from his 1171 00:43:07,650 --> 00:43:09,749 documents. So, you know, I'm really a big 1172 00:43:09,750 --> 00:43:11,519 supporter of whistleblowers. 1173 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,309 The there's really two 1174 00:43:14,310 --> 00:43:16,319 forces out there. 1175 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,569 One is the force of fear, 1176 00:43:18,570 --> 00:43:20,549 the fear mongers who are always pushing 1177 00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:23,309 for more surveillance 1178 00:43:23,310 --> 00:43:25,380 and scaring everybody with 1179 00:43:26,700 --> 00:43:28,379 with fear. You know, there's been I think 1180 00:43:28,380 --> 00:43:29,730 there were four terrorists, 1181 00:43:30,810 --> 00:43:32,429 four people killed in the United States 1182 00:43:32,430 --> 00:43:34,049 last year by terrorists. 1183 00:43:34,050 --> 00:43:35,819 There are twenty four people killed by 1184 00:43:35,820 --> 00:43:36,820 dog bites. 1185 00:43:37,590 --> 00:43:39,689 And that's an average except for 1186 00:43:39,690 --> 00:43:41,849 9/11 every other year normally like 1187 00:43:41,850 --> 00:43:43,679 that. So it's just fear mongering. 1188 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,750 The only only thing opposing that, 1189 00:43:47,310 --> 00:43:48,719 the only thing opposing fear is 1190 00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:50,129 information. And the only people that can 1191 00:43:50,130 --> 00:43:52,019 get the information out are the 1192 00:43:52,020 --> 00:43:54,089 whistleblowers. So what's the 1193 00:43:54,090 --> 00:43:56,419 take away the take away the what 1194 00:43:56,420 --> 00:43:57,420 the. 1195 00:43:58,970 --> 00:44:00,979 Well, I took away from all this is that 1196 00:44:00,980 --> 00:44:03,049 No one, the NSA and the telecoms have 1197 00:44:03,050 --> 00:44:05,299 been secretly cooperating for 1198 00:44:05,300 --> 00:44:06,409 nearly a century. 1199 00:44:06,410 --> 00:44:08,419 I mean, it just didn't happen with George 1200 00:44:08,420 --> 00:44:10,609 Bush has been going on for a long 1201 00:44:10,610 --> 00:44:11,029 time. 1202 00:44:11,030 --> 00:44:12,030 Number two, 1203 00:44:13,460 --> 00:44:15,529 they occasionally get caught, but no one 1204 00:44:15,530 --> 00:44:17,270 ever gets punished or prosecuted. 1205 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,419 Is neither the eavesdropping nor the 1206 00:44:20,420 --> 00:44:22,669 companies. I mean, they just they do 1207 00:44:22,670 --> 00:44:24,739 it. They get caught and 1208 00:44:24,740 --> 00:44:26,859 they just keep doing it again. 1209 00:44:26,860 --> 00:44:28,370 Uh, a number three. 1210 00:44:29,890 --> 00:44:32,079 As I just said, after they get caught, 1211 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:33,669 they stop for a while and then they just 1212 00:44:33,670 --> 00:44:36,519 resume their illegal eavesdropping 1213 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:37,839 one after another. 1214 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:38,840 So. 1215 00:44:39,970 --> 00:44:41,079 What's the answer? 1216 00:44:42,370 --> 00:44:44,529 One answer have a major 1217 00:44:44,530 --> 00:44:46,909 church style investigation, but this time 1218 00:44:46,910 --> 00:44:47,889 not by Congress. 1219 00:44:47,890 --> 00:44:49,509 I mean, what's Congress going to do, 1220 00:44:49,510 --> 00:44:50,560 investigate themselves? 1221 00:44:53,670 --> 00:44:56,009 This time have sort of a 9/11 commission, 1222 00:44:56,010 --> 00:44:58,289 but not a lot of old government hacks 1223 00:44:58,290 --> 00:45:00,389 on there, put some journalists, 1224 00:45:00,390 --> 00:45:02,819 writers, privacy advocates, 1225 00:45:02,820 --> 00:45:03,839 now some people 1226 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,159 like former Senator Udall, for example, 1227 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,259 or soon to be former 1228 00:45:10,260 --> 00:45:11,260 senator. 1229 00:45:12,270 --> 00:45:14,429 Uh, no. To have a major Bella 1230 00:45:14,430 --> 00:45:16,079 Abzug style hearing and force the 1231 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,239 companies to testify 1232 00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:21,209 about their involvement publicly. 1233 00:45:21,210 --> 00:45:22,739 And three, have the Justice Department 1234 00:45:22,740 --> 00:45:24,809 get another full, full blown criminal 1235 00:45:24,810 --> 00:45:26,129 investigation of the NSA. 1236 00:45:26,130 --> 00:45:29,009 Now, all these things have a precedent. 1237 00:45:29,010 --> 00:45:31,379 I mean, a major investigation as a church 1238 00:45:31,380 --> 00:45:33,589 committee. Is the president calling the 1239 00:45:33,590 --> 00:45:35,859 the telecoms as Bella Abzug 1240 00:45:35,860 --> 00:45:37,349 searing as a precedent? 1241 00:45:37,350 --> 00:45:39,569 And the nineteen seventy five criminal 1242 00:45:39,570 --> 00:45:42,239 investigation of NSA 1243 00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:45,309 is a precedent for a new investigation. 1244 00:45:45,310 --> 00:45:47,699 Uh, just one thing different 1245 00:45:47,700 --> 00:45:49,469 they should do this time, however. 1246 00:45:56,270 --> 00:45:57,270 Prosecute them. 1247 00:46:06,130 --> 00:46:08,289 Now, having worked in a 1248 00:46:08,290 --> 00:46:10,359 bar on and off, especially espionage 1249 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,280 cases since I got out of law school, 1250 00:46:13,930 --> 00:46:15,279 I've seen a lot of the criminal justice 1251 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,349 system and to some degree, it does 1252 00:46:17,350 --> 00:46:18,459 work. You know, it does work. 1253 00:46:18,460 --> 00:46:20,559 You put somebody in jail more time 1254 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,659 so they stop doing what they're 1255 00:46:22,660 --> 00:46:24,459 what they have been doing. 1256 00:46:24,460 --> 00:46:26,709 So this will come very 1257 00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:27,880 easy for NSA. 1258 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,539 I've even worked out a plan, say 1259 00:46:32,540 --> 00:46:34,669 that's NASA headquarters right 1260 00:46:34,670 --> 00:46:36,560 across the street, there's an abandoned 1261 00:46:38,810 --> 00:46:40,520 asylum for the Kremlin saying. 1262 00:46:43,410 --> 00:46:45,819 You just march him across 1263 00:46:45,820 --> 00:46:46,820 very easy 1264 00:46:49,020 --> 00:46:51,839 and like I said, it does work 1265 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:53,489 after they're in there for a while, it 1266 00:46:53,490 --> 00:46:54,959 will work. 1267 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,269 And I guarantee you that, 1268 00:46:57,270 --> 00:46:59,459 you know, you have 1269 00:46:59,460 --> 00:47:01,799 General Alexander in a prison 1270 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:02,800 cell for a while. 1271 00:47:06,790 --> 00:47:08,109 When he comes out, he's going to be 1272 00:47:08,110 --> 00:47:09,110 reformed. 1273 00:47:10,910 --> 00:47:12,139 And this is where he's going to look 1274 00:47:12,140 --> 00:47:13,140 like. 1275 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:23,859 So after he gets out 1276 00:47:23,860 --> 00:47:26,019 of prison, after he reformed, after 1277 00:47:26,020 --> 00:47:28,539 he becomes an advocate for 1278 00:47:28,540 --> 00:47:29,540 Ed Snowden, 1279 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:32,979 then the next thing is going to happen 1280 00:47:32,980 --> 00:47:33,980 is. 1281 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:36,879 Ed, Snowden is going to go on the 1282 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,219 Cryptologic Hall of Fame right 1283 00:47:39,220 --> 00:47:41,379 next to Herbert Yardley, who 1284 00:47:41,380 --> 00:47:42,380 was also 1285 00:47:44,590 --> 00:47:46,659 charged with being a whistleblower after 1286 00:47:46,660 --> 00:47:47,379 70 years. 1287 00:47:47,380 --> 00:47:49,599 Believe it or not, after 70 years in 1288 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,819 1999, despite the fact 1289 00:47:51,820 --> 00:47:53,919 that they were basically ready to 1290 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:55,839 prosecute Herbert Yardley for writing a 1291 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:56,840 book, 1292 00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:59,589 they put him on the Cryptologic Hall of 1293 00:47:59,590 --> 00:48:01,689 Fame. So in 70 years, I 1294 00:48:01,690 --> 00:48:03,519 predict that Ed Snowden is going to be up 1295 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,589 there along with Herbert Yardley. 1296 00:48:05,590 --> 00:48:07,899 So anyway, listen, I appreciate 1297 00:48:07,900 --> 00:48:09,969 all your attention here, and I'm happy 1298 00:48:09,970 --> 00:48:11,569 to take any kind of questions anybody 1299 00:48:11,570 --> 00:48:12,570 like to ask. 1300 00:48:25,070 --> 00:48:27,139 Yeah, big thank you to this talk, it 1301 00:48:27,140 --> 00:48:29,149 was quite great and a lot of people 1302 00:48:29,150 --> 00:48:30,709 wanted to see it that we're not allowed 1303 00:48:30,710 --> 00:48:32,269 to come in here. So there were even more 1304 00:48:32,270 --> 00:48:34,459 people like liking to talk 1305 00:48:34,460 --> 00:48:36,289 anyway. If you have time for some 1306 00:48:36,290 --> 00:48:38,389 questions and answers and maybe 1307 00:48:38,390 --> 00:48:40,489 you should start to ask them, I 1308 00:48:40,490 --> 00:48:41,719 know that that's one question. 1309 00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:43,459 The Internet at the moment. 1310 00:48:43,460 --> 00:48:44,619 Yes. 1311 00:48:44,620 --> 00:48:47,269 Uh, one first use. 1312 00:48:47,270 --> 00:48:49,579 New Zealand researcher Nikki Hager 1313 00:48:49,580 --> 00:48:51,319 has written about his country's 1314 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,569 involvement in the NSA surveillance 1315 00:48:53,570 --> 00:48:54,499 network. 1316 00:48:54,500 --> 00:48:56,779 One example, if you recall, was that 1317 00:48:56,780 --> 00:48:58,819 analysis in New Zealand. 1318 00:48:58,820 --> 00:49:01,549 We are told by the US to Poulter's 1319 00:49:01,550 --> 00:49:03,979 economics and intelligence of Japan 1320 00:49:03,980 --> 00:49:06,529 over all else, given that 1321 00:49:06,530 --> 00:49:08,839 we have examples of corporate 1322 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,239 entities profiting from control 1323 00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:12,829 over competitors. 1324 00:49:12,830 --> 00:49:15,199 Is it fair to say that the sole purpose 1325 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,539 of it is to uphold US 1326 00:49:17,540 --> 00:49:19,189 economic economy? 1327 00:49:19,190 --> 00:49:21,529 So it's contributing to crime, but also 1328 00:49:21,530 --> 00:49:24,020 a sort of a secondary purpose? 1329 00:49:26,090 --> 00:49:28,159 The question has to do with whether NSA 1330 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,649 is doing economic intelligence 1331 00:49:30,650 --> 00:49:32,929 of actually testified before the European 1332 00:49:32,930 --> 00:49:34,939 Parliament on this. 1333 00:49:34,940 --> 00:49:37,609 It's a more nuanced, complicated 1334 00:49:37,610 --> 00:49:40,039 question. The NSA doesn't 1335 00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,289 I don't think the NSA spies on 1336 00:49:43,490 --> 00:49:45,619 Airbus, for example, then passes that 1337 00:49:45,620 --> 00:49:47,869 information on to Boeing. 1338 00:49:47,870 --> 00:49:50,089 It's just too complicated to do 1339 00:49:50,090 --> 00:49:51,949 that. They'd have to set up a skiff at 1340 00:49:51,950 --> 00:49:54,019 Boeing and then they have to give 1341 00:49:54,020 --> 00:49:55,249 it to Lockheed and everything else. 1342 00:49:55,250 --> 00:49:57,409 So I don't think there's there's 1343 00:49:57,410 --> 00:50:00,109 I don't think there's economic espionage 1344 00:50:00,110 --> 00:50:02,329 in that sort of micro sense. 1345 00:50:02,330 --> 00:50:04,129 I think there is economic espionage in 1346 00:50:04,130 --> 00:50:06,289 the macro sense where they find out, 1347 00:50:06,290 --> 00:50:07,290 you know, what the 1348 00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:11,389 Petrobas is doing down and 1349 00:50:11,390 --> 00:50:13,519 down in Brazil as part of 1350 00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,219 a more a larger 1351 00:50:16,220 --> 00:50:18,439 economic espionage. 1352 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,629 And then they're also eavesdropping 1353 00:50:20,630 --> 00:50:22,789 on companies that they think may be 1354 00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:25,069 in violation of embargoes and things. 1355 00:50:25,070 --> 00:50:27,379 So they do do 1356 00:50:27,380 --> 00:50:30,229 macro espionage. 1357 00:50:30,230 --> 00:50:32,389 The other area that they do in terms 1358 00:50:32,390 --> 00:50:34,399 of economics, which is very interesting, 1359 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,139 and they've been doing this ever since 1360 00:50:36,140 --> 00:50:37,539 the NSA was created. 1361 00:50:37,540 --> 00:50:39,949 Any time there's a like a G-7 1362 00:50:39,950 --> 00:50:42,589 or one of these big economic conferences, 1363 00:50:42,590 --> 00:50:44,719 NSA spends months 1364 00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:46,909 trying to set up eavesdropping 1365 00:50:46,910 --> 00:50:48,829 capabilities. They know what everybody at 1366 00:50:48,830 --> 00:50:50,839 the G-7 or whatever, what their 1367 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:52,939 negotiating positions are going to be. 1368 00:50:52,940 --> 00:50:55,189 So on the big macro issue of 1369 00:50:55,190 --> 00:50:57,739 economics, they do do a lot of spying 1370 00:50:57,740 --> 00:50:59,899 on individual companies and passing 1371 00:50:59,900 --> 00:51:02,269 that on to American companies. 1372 00:51:02,270 --> 00:51:04,549 I don't think so. But one area 1373 00:51:04,550 --> 00:51:06,589 where that linkage does happen is where 1374 00:51:06,590 --> 00:51:08,749 people leave NSA and then go 1375 00:51:08,750 --> 00:51:10,849 to work for the companies and then they 1376 00:51:10,850 --> 00:51:12,230 know what they've 1377 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,349 known for years, what the 1378 00:51:15,350 --> 00:51:16,879 companies don't know because they've been 1379 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:17,880 eavesdropping on them. 1380 00:51:19,220 --> 00:51:21,079 OK, the next question is coming from the 1381 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:22,819 room, it's from Damaturu. 1382 00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:26,219 So do you believe that the U.S. 1383 00:51:26,220 --> 00:51:28,079 government is capable of investigating 1384 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,509 itself, that things like Abscam 1385 00:51:30,510 --> 00:51:32,699 from the 1980s in which 1386 00:51:32,700 --> 00:51:34,079 I think thirty one politicians were 1387 00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,149 targeted and 1388 00:51:36,150 --> 00:51:37,619 only a handful were actually ever 1389 00:51:37,620 --> 00:51:39,899 followed through to prosecution? 1390 00:51:39,900 --> 00:51:41,419 Do you feel that a 1391 00:51:42,570 --> 00:51:44,729 church committee hearing could actually 1392 00:51:44,730 --> 00:51:46,290 be convened in this day and age? 1393 00:51:47,370 --> 00:51:49,439 Yes, good question, because 1394 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,689 like I mentioned, I don't think 1395 00:51:51,690 --> 00:51:53,759 the Congress is capable of 1396 00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:54,760 doing it. 1397 00:51:56,850 --> 00:51:58,979 I thought the 9/11 Commission left a lot 1398 00:51:58,980 --> 00:51:59,989 to be desired. 1399 00:51:59,990 --> 00:52:01,809 I thought that they did a sloppy job. 1400 00:52:01,810 --> 00:52:04,199 They virtually did no investigation 1401 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:05,200 of NSA at all. 1402 00:52:06,990 --> 00:52:08,969 On the other hand, you had the 1403 00:52:08,970 --> 00:52:11,399 presidential panel that was appointed by 1404 00:52:13,530 --> 00:52:15,719 Barack Obama and they came 1405 00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:17,909 out what it was three 1406 00:52:17,910 --> 00:52:19,269 people on. There are four people, 1407 00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:20,819 something like that. One of them was a 1408 00:52:20,820 --> 00:52:23,369 former CIA deputy director. 1409 00:52:23,370 --> 00:52:24,959 And they actually did come out with a 1410 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,419 recommendation of forty six areas 1411 00:52:27,420 --> 00:52:29,849 that should be changed for the areas 1412 00:52:29,850 --> 00:52:32,279 that the that they thought the government 1413 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,769 was doing illegal or improper 1414 00:52:34,770 --> 00:52:37,049 or unethical or immoral or whatever 1415 00:52:37,050 --> 00:52:39,119 kind of activities. 1416 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,549 The problem wasn't that they 1417 00:52:41,550 --> 00:52:43,319 came out with a bad report that came out 1418 00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:44,729 with a very good report. 1419 00:52:44,730 --> 00:52:46,799 The problem was Barack Obama ignored it. 1420 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,199 I mean, he basically brushed 1421 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,059 it off. He said, OK, there's like three 1422 00:52:51,060 --> 00:52:53,129 or four, maybe six things that we could 1423 00:52:53,130 --> 00:52:54,089 change. 1424 00:52:54,090 --> 00:52:56,249 And then the other 40 1425 00:52:56,250 --> 00:52:58,409 he ignored. So those 1426 00:52:58,410 --> 00:52:59,879 are the two problems. One is firing 1427 00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:02,009 government people who will do this 1428 00:53:02,010 --> 00:53:04,529 or rather find people that will go on to 1429 00:53:04,530 --> 00:53:06,869 on a committee or whatever, that will 1430 00:53:06,870 --> 00:53:08,969 do an energetic job like the church 1431 00:53:08,970 --> 00:53:10,319 committee. And the other one is, once 1432 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,449 they've done, will 1433 00:53:12,450 --> 00:53:13,889 the Congress, which is now more 1434 00:53:13,890 --> 00:53:16,559 Republican than ever or president, 1435 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:17,529 go along with it? 1436 00:53:17,530 --> 00:53:19,679 So is a really an uphill 1437 00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:20,969 battle, but you've got to start 1438 00:53:20,970 --> 00:53:23,099 someplace. And I think 1439 00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:26,069 starting with a full investigation, 1440 00:53:26,070 --> 00:53:28,139 9/11 style, what the government's been 1441 00:53:28,140 --> 00:53:30,599 doing in terms of eavesdropping, torture 1442 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:32,789 and all that really needs I 1443 00:53:32,790 --> 00:53:34,079 mean, we haven't had it since nineteen 1444 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:35,279 seventy five. 1445 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,559 You know, you need one once a century 1446 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:38,519 at least. 1447 00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:40,199 So anyway. 1448 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:41,759 I hope so. 1449 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,519 OK, the next question is from the four. 1450 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:44,999 Yes you may. 1451 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,829 Applause I 1452 00:53:47,830 --> 00:53:50,339 a few of us watched the 1992 1453 00:53:50,340 --> 00:53:52,829 Hollywood film Sneakers the other night 1454 00:53:52,830 --> 00:53:54,929 and part of the 1455 00:53:54,930 --> 00:53:57,479 plot hinges on NSA domestic 1456 00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,269 surveillance. And as far as I know, 1457 00:54:00,270 --> 00:54:01,589 it wasn't really in the popular 1458 00:54:01,590 --> 00:54:02,819 consciousness at that time. 1459 00:54:02,820 --> 00:54:04,799 And it seems really prescient. 1460 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,249 And I'm just kind of curious whether 1461 00:54:08,250 --> 00:54:10,739 the producers had some inside track 1462 00:54:10,740 --> 00:54:13,229 on on some of the revelations 1463 00:54:13,230 --> 00:54:15,489 that eventually came out in your books. 1464 00:54:15,490 --> 00:54:17,669 I'm sorry, whether who 1465 00:54:17,670 --> 00:54:19,799 had the the producers of 1466 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:20,800 the film? 1467 00:54:22,290 --> 00:54:24,569 Yeah, even whether 1468 00:54:24,570 --> 00:54:26,789 the producers of the film Sneakers had 1469 00:54:26,790 --> 00:54:27,790 had 1470 00:54:29,250 --> 00:54:31,499 insight into the NSA. 1471 00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:32,909 Through through what? 1472 00:54:32,910 --> 00:54:35,069 Through I I'm not sure. 1473 00:54:35,070 --> 00:54:37,319 It it just seemed very prescient, 1474 00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:39,479 you know, based on recent revelations 1475 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:41,819 and know 1476 00:54:41,820 --> 00:54:42,249 that's true. 1477 00:54:42,250 --> 00:54:44,189 You know, it was a really interesting 1478 00:54:44,190 --> 00:54:45,449 movie in there. 1479 00:54:45,450 --> 00:54:47,369 Another one was enemy of the state that 1480 00:54:47,370 --> 00:54:48,780 came out in the late 90s. 1481 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:51,420 Yeah. No, there have been 1482 00:54:53,220 --> 00:54:55,319 periodic people that have been 1483 00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,639 interested in domestic spying. 1484 00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:00,059 My first book came out in 82. 1485 00:55:00,060 --> 00:55:02,129 It was a bestseller, made quite 1486 00:55:02,130 --> 00:55:04,349 a bit of noise and I've been writing 1487 00:55:04,350 --> 00:55:07,409 about it for a long time, the domestic 1488 00:55:07,410 --> 00:55:08,410 aspects of it. 1489 00:55:09,450 --> 00:55:11,819 But it didn't really 1490 00:55:11,820 --> 00:55:14,099 the public hadn't really caught on 1491 00:55:14,100 --> 00:55:16,529 to what the NSA was doing 1492 00:55:16,530 --> 00:55:18,869 since the church committee until 1493 00:55:18,870 --> 00:55:21,479 the Snowden revelations, because 1494 00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:22,479 I mean, this is very interesting. 1495 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,449 One of the things that Snowden told me 1496 00:55:24,450 --> 00:55:25,499 when I was in Moscow 1497 00:55:26,610 --> 00:55:29,039 was that, you know, he had several 1498 00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,379 choices when he became a whistleblower. 1499 00:55:31,380 --> 00:55:33,239 He could become a whistle blower like 1500 00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:35,489 Bill Bennett, who was 1501 00:55:35,490 --> 00:55:37,679 a whistle blower to me for my 1502 00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:39,059 Wired article. 1503 00:55:39,060 --> 00:55:41,189 And what happened in that 1504 00:55:41,190 --> 00:55:43,109 Wired article when I interviewed Bill 1505 00:55:43,110 --> 00:55:44,939 Bennett and I put down what Bill Bennett 1506 00:55:44,940 --> 00:55:47,429 said about these all this eavesdropping. 1507 00:55:50,690 --> 00:55:53,359 General Alexander came out, I don't know 1508 00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,369 how many of you saw Laura Poitras was 1509 00:55:55,370 --> 00:55:57,439 film last night, 1510 00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:59,299 but there was a scene in there where 1511 00:55:59,300 --> 00:56:01,279 General Alexander is sitting in front of 1512 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,189 a congressional committee 1513 00:56:04,190 --> 00:56:06,529 and they're saying, does the US do 1514 00:56:06,530 --> 00:56:07,549 domestic eavesdropping? 1515 00:56:07,550 --> 00:56:09,229 Does the NSA spy on Americans? 1516 00:56:09,230 --> 00:56:10,230 Are the U.S. dropped on their 1517 00:56:11,660 --> 00:56:14,029 emails and he kept saying, no, no, 1518 00:56:14,030 --> 00:56:14,599 no. 1519 00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:16,699 Well, that was a response to my article. 1520 00:56:16,700 --> 00:56:18,169 My article came out. 1521 00:56:18,170 --> 00:56:20,779 And so then he testified 1522 00:56:20,780 --> 00:56:22,999 and he lied in front of the committees. 1523 00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,579 And so all the the press, 1524 00:56:25,580 --> 00:56:27,769 Washington Post and so forth, 1525 00:56:27,770 --> 00:56:30,229 they reported, oh, this is all nonsense. 1526 00:56:30,230 --> 00:56:32,249 You know, General Alexander came out and 1527 00:56:32,250 --> 00:56:33,679 said they don't do it. So of course they 1528 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:34,680 don't do it. 1529 00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,609 So Snowden's seeing that he's 1530 00:56:37,610 --> 00:56:39,050 he's seeing that when he's 1531 00:56:41,060 --> 00:56:42,949 thinking about becoming a whistleblower 1532 00:56:42,950 --> 00:56:43,969 and he sees what happened to Bill 1533 00:56:43,970 --> 00:56:46,189 Bennett. Bill Bennett comes out, he says 1534 00:56:46,190 --> 00:56:47,899 the US is doing all this spying. 1535 00:56:47,900 --> 00:56:49,579 Alexander comes out and says, no, we're 1536 00:56:49,580 --> 00:56:51,649 not. The press buys 1537 00:56:51,650 --> 00:56:53,179 into Alexander because he's got four 1538 00:56:53,180 --> 00:56:55,699 stars on his shoulder. 1539 00:56:55,700 --> 00:56:57,889 And so Snowden 1540 00:56:57,890 --> 00:57:00,019 thinks there's only one way to do this, 1541 00:57:00,020 --> 00:57:02,089 and that's to actually walk out with 1542 00:57:02,090 --> 00:57:03,139 the documents. 1543 00:57:03,140 --> 00:57:05,239 I mean, if I got the documents and I give 1544 00:57:05,240 --> 00:57:07,819 them to, you know, people in the press, 1545 00:57:07,820 --> 00:57:10,339 then you're not going to have Alexander 1546 00:57:10,340 --> 00:57:11,829 being able to lie anymore. 1547 00:57:11,830 --> 00:57:14,149 So I think that's one 1548 00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:15,469 of the things that happened was in the 1549 00:57:15,470 --> 00:57:17,629 past, people would come out, they blow 1550 00:57:17,630 --> 00:57:19,069 the whistle. 1551 00:57:19,070 --> 00:57:21,169 NSA would say it's know like Tom 1552 00:57:21,170 --> 00:57:22,639 Drake or whatever is nonsense. 1553 00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:24,919 And and so then people 1554 00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,319 would hadn't 1555 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:28,219 paid much attention. 1556 00:57:28,220 --> 00:57:30,259 So that's why I think it was the 1557 00:57:30,260 --> 00:57:31,819 documents that made the whole difference 1558 00:57:31,820 --> 00:57:33,329 with Snowden. 1559 00:57:33,330 --> 00:57:35,179 OK, then another question from the 1560 00:57:35,180 --> 00:57:36,139 Internet. 1561 00:57:36,140 --> 00:57:38,269 Yeah, the question is, how 1562 00:57:38,270 --> 00:57:40,519 is the civic coverage outside 1563 00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:42,769 of Congress and government about 1564 00:57:42,770 --> 00:57:44,749 sort of two things? 1565 00:57:44,750 --> 00:57:46,819 How did supporters behave for the 1566 00:57:46,820 --> 00:57:49,289 time since the founding of a 1567 00:57:49,290 --> 00:57:51,189 was civic earlier? 1568 00:57:52,850 --> 00:57:55,189 Can you just ask me just one more time? 1569 00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:56,089 Yeah. 1570 00:57:56,090 --> 00:57:58,609 How this specific coverage outside 1571 00:57:58,610 --> 00:58:00,889 of Congress and government about 1572 00:58:00,890 --> 00:58:03,109 the eavesdropping things, how does 1573 00:58:03,110 --> 00:58:05,179 the purse behave for the first time 1574 00:58:05,180 --> 00:58:07,249 since the founding of the NSA 1575 00:58:07,250 --> 00:58:09,459 was old early. 1576 00:58:09,460 --> 00:58:10,579 Earlier? 1577 00:58:10,580 --> 00:58:11,839 Yeah, a good question. 1578 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,209 You know, the press how 1579 00:58:14,210 --> 00:58:15,589 one big problem is the press. 1580 00:58:15,590 --> 00:58:17,689 They they 1581 00:58:17,690 --> 00:58:19,819 never pay attention to NSA until 1582 00:58:19,820 --> 00:58:22,639 there's some big thing like like Snowden. 1583 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:24,679 When I wrote my first book about NSA, 1584 00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,039 The Puzzle Palace, nineteen eighty two, 1585 00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:29,749 there had never been anybody in the press 1586 00:58:29,750 --> 00:58:32,369 that ever did an investigative story on 1587 00:58:32,370 --> 00:58:34,559 NSA before that it was just a 1588 00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:36,380 nobody paid attention to hard 1589 00:58:37,490 --> 00:58:39,049 CIA is very easy because they've got 1590 00:58:39,050 --> 00:58:41,239 sources, you know, drop a dime 1591 00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:43,399 and you'll get twenty CIA 1592 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:44,379 sources show up. 1593 00:58:44,380 --> 00:58:47,209 It's fairly easy for journalists to find. 1594 00:58:47,210 --> 00:58:49,009 I mean you can't leave CIA without 1595 00:58:49,010 --> 00:58:50,010 writing a book 1596 00:58:51,540 --> 00:58:53,669 for virtually everybody at 1597 00:58:53,670 --> 00:58:54,589 CIA writes a book. 1598 00:58:54,590 --> 00:58:56,449 So there's a million CIA sources. 1599 00:58:56,450 --> 00:58:58,969 Nobody from NSA has ever written a book. 1600 00:58:58,970 --> 00:59:01,639 So NSA sources are very hard. 1601 00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:03,289 And if it's very hard, the journalists 1602 00:59:03,290 --> 00:59:04,729 are going to go the easy way, which is 1603 00:59:04,730 --> 00:59:06,799 CIA, and not pay any attention 1604 00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:07,729 to the NSA. 1605 00:59:07,730 --> 00:59:09,949 The other thing is CIA is very easy. 1606 00:59:09,950 --> 00:59:10,879 You know, it's a spy. 1607 00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:12,529 They leave a bag behind a tree and 1608 00:59:12,530 --> 00:59:14,719 somebody picks it up or they 1609 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:16,849 shoot somebody with a drone. 1610 00:59:16,850 --> 00:59:18,229 NSA, you've got to know a little bit 1611 00:59:18,230 --> 00:59:19,189 about electronics. 1612 00:59:19,190 --> 00:59:22,459 You have no satellites are up in the air 1613 00:59:22,460 --> 00:59:25,579 and that radio signals go through. 1614 00:59:25,580 --> 00:59:27,799 And so but that's journalists 1615 00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:29,449 don't usually study science. 1616 00:59:29,450 --> 00:59:31,579 So NSA is a lot harder for 1617 00:59:31,580 --> 00:59:33,859 them to deal with. So that's a 1618 00:59:33,860 --> 00:59:36,229 lot of reasons why you hardly ever see 1619 00:59:36,230 --> 00:59:38,029 people doing investigative stories on 1620 00:59:38,030 --> 00:59:40,309 NSA, at least pre Snowden was 1621 00:59:40,310 --> 00:59:42,019 because of the, first of all, the 1622 00:59:42,020 --> 00:59:43,609 difficulty of getting sources. 1623 00:59:43,610 --> 00:59:44,780 And second of all, the 1624 00:59:46,030 --> 00:59:48,199 the fact that you have to know at least 1625 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,279 a little bit about science in order 1626 00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,479 to write about NSA. 1627 00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,469 OK, then the last question from the room, 1628 00:59:54,470 --> 00:59:55,929 I know that there are more questions, 1629 00:59:55,930 --> 00:59:57,999 but, um, the time is up, 1630 00:59:58,000 --> 00:59:59,509 so it's number one. 1631 00:59:59,510 --> 01:00:00,999 Oh, thank you. 1632 01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,069 Thank you very much. 1633 01:00:03,070 --> 01:00:05,979 My question is, if 1634 01:00:05,980 --> 01:00:08,319 the NSA and other 1635 01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,779 services are not capable 1636 01:00:10,780 --> 01:00:13,389 of catching so-called 1637 01:00:13,390 --> 01:00:15,459 terrorists, even if they shop in 1638 01:00:15,460 --> 01:00:17,589 the same supermarket, 1639 01:00:17,590 --> 01:00:19,719 why the heck are these 1640 01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:20,769 agencies there? 1641 01:00:20,770 --> 01:00:22,750 Is this just for 1642 01:00:23,830 --> 01:00:26,019 making money for a security 1643 01:00:26,020 --> 01:00:27,020 industry? 1644 01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:29,720 Yes. 1645 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,119 Yeah, that's pretty much it. 1646 01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:35,649 I'll give you a I'll give you a sense of 1647 01:00:35,650 --> 01:00:37,179 his track record and this is the first 1648 01:00:37,180 --> 01:00:39,399 World Trade Center bombing and 1649 01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,649 this the attack on the USS Cole, even 1650 01:00:41,650 --> 01:00:43,059 though it took place in Yemen, a key 1651 01:00:43,060 --> 01:00:45,189 target of NSA in this, the 1652 01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:46,300 attacks on the 1653 01:00:48,790 --> 01:00:51,040 US embassies in East Africa, 1654 01:00:52,330 --> 01:00:54,609 even though the NSA 1655 01:00:54,610 --> 01:00:56,769 had been focusing on that house 1656 01:00:56,770 --> 01:00:58,959 where where the operation was 1657 01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:00,129 planned for years, 1658 01:01:01,180 --> 01:01:02,649 it missed 9/11. 1659 01:01:02,650 --> 01:01:04,299 The director of the NSA was having a 1660 01:01:04,300 --> 01:01:06,159 meeting in his office at the time of 1661 01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:08,559 9/11, the director of NSA, 1662 01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:10,419 and he looks over his TV set and sees the 1663 01:01:10,420 --> 01:01:12,729 planes going in, you know, so NSA 1664 01:01:12,730 --> 01:01:14,589 found out about it from a three hundred 1665 01:01:14,590 --> 01:01:16,119 dollar television set. 1666 01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:18,309 And then after 9/11, they they 1667 01:01:18,310 --> 01:01:20,469 miss the Times Square bomber. 1668 01:01:20,470 --> 01:01:22,569 You know, that was some people in 1669 01:01:22,570 --> 01:01:24,939 Times Square that happened to find that 1670 01:01:24,940 --> 01:01:27,399 they missed the Christmas 1671 01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,529 Day underwear bomber completely 1672 01:01:29,530 --> 01:01:32,559 missed it. They missed the the 1673 01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:34,099 the marathon bombing. 1674 01:01:34,100 --> 01:01:36,939 So, yeah, the NSA 1675 01:01:36,940 --> 01:01:39,099 doesn't do that. I mean, it wasn't set up 1676 01:01:39,100 --> 01:01:40,569 to catch Terry's. It wasn't what it was 1677 01:01:40,570 --> 01:01:42,729 set up for set up to find 1678 01:01:42,730 --> 01:01:44,619 when Russia was about to launch a nuclear 1679 01:01:44,620 --> 01:01:46,029 war, basically. 1680 01:01:46,030 --> 01:01:47,499 So it's an agency. 1681 01:01:47,500 --> 01:01:49,689 It's not doing what it was set 1682 01:01:49,690 --> 01:01:51,879 up to do and it can't do what it's trying 1683 01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:53,619 to do very well. 1684 01:01:53,620 --> 01:01:55,899 So, yeah, the the 1685 01:01:55,900 --> 01:01:58,059 key beneficiary of this is the are the 1686 01:01:58,060 --> 01:02:00,249 telecom companies and the rather 1687 01:02:00,250 --> 01:02:03,419 the defense contractors, the 1688 01:02:03,420 --> 01:02:05,829 the war profiteers basically who 1689 01:02:05,830 --> 01:02:07,809 make profits on all this stuff. 1690 01:02:07,810 --> 01:02:09,999 The the amount of contractors 1691 01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:12,519 that make money from NSA is just 1692 01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:13,879 astonishing. 1693 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,059 But anyway, that's that's a 1694 01:02:16,060 --> 01:02:17,529 simple answer. Your question is yes. 1695 01:02:17,530 --> 01:02:19,719 That's the key beneficiaries of all this 1696 01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:21,129 is not the American public. 1697 01:02:21,130 --> 01:02:23,109 It's the war profiteers. 1698 01:02:23,110 --> 01:02:24,339 But thanks very much. 1699 01:02:24,340 --> 01:02:25,340 Yeah, thank you.