0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/583 Thanks! 1 00:00:09,450 --> 00:00:11,519 Our next talk is going 2 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,369 to be by Suzanne Bunkmates. 3 00:00:13,370 --> 00:00:16,169 She's a social scientist 4 00:00:16,170 --> 00:00:18,269 and, um, she's doing 5 00:00:18,270 --> 00:00:21,149 research about hacking 6 00:00:21,150 --> 00:00:23,129 and also she claims she's not a hacker. 7 00:00:23,130 --> 00:00:25,469 She's actually written a paper about GSM 8 00:00:25,470 --> 00:00:26,569 hacking. 9 00:00:26,570 --> 00:00:27,749 Um, yeah. 10 00:00:27,750 --> 00:00:29,829 So this is going to be very interesting. 11 00:00:29,830 --> 00:00:32,069 Um, we also have translation 12 00:00:32,070 --> 00:00:33,569 available for this talk. 13 00:00:33,570 --> 00:00:35,939 You just dial eighty fourteen, 14 00:00:35,940 --> 00:00:38,129 so give a warm welcome to Suzanne 15 00:00:38,130 --> 00:00:39,130 and enjoy. 16 00:00:46,980 --> 00:00:48,839 Yes. Thank you for having me. 17 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:50,879 I'm very happy to be here. 18 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,999 So by way of an introduction, 19 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:55,559 this talk is about concepts. 20 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,629 I'm a social scientist and I'm interested 21 00:00:57,630 --> 00:01:01,019 in concepts, words, ideas, vocabularies, 22 00:01:01,020 --> 00:01:03,269 concepts matter because 23 00:01:03,270 --> 00:01:04,589 if you don't have a conceptual 24 00:01:04,590 --> 00:01:06,389 understanding of something, you can't 25 00:01:06,390 --> 00:01:07,389 really talk about it. 26 00:01:07,390 --> 00:01:08,699 You can't really work with it. 27 00:01:08,700 --> 00:01:10,589 You can't criticize it. 28 00:01:10,590 --> 00:01:13,919 That's why concepts are important tools. 29 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:15,749 And this talk is about conceptual 30 00:01:15,750 --> 00:01:18,089 approaches to hacking, hacking 31 00:01:18,090 --> 00:01:20,249 as a phenomenon, something that you can 32 00:01:20,250 --> 00:01:22,739 do, you can observe, 33 00:01:22,740 --> 00:01:25,019 you can talk about something that 34 00:01:25,020 --> 00:01:26,909 you might want to have a conceptual 35 00:01:26,910 --> 00:01:28,379 understanding of. 36 00:01:28,380 --> 00:01:30,539 So the question for this talk is, 37 00:01:30,540 --> 00:01:31,439 thank you. 38 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,509 The question for this talk is what 39 00:01:33,510 --> 00:01:34,469 is hacking? 40 00:01:34,470 --> 00:01:36,089 What's the concept of hacking? 41 00:01:36,090 --> 00:01:37,169 What should it be? 42 00:01:37,170 --> 00:01:38,819 What should be a concept of hacking? 43 00:01:38,820 --> 00:01:40,979 Like maybe that's 44 00:01:40,980 --> 00:01:42,929 a boring question for you. 45 00:01:42,930 --> 00:01:44,999 Maybe your impulse is to say, come 46 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,189 on, open your eyes is just right in front 47 00:01:47,190 --> 00:01:48,190 of you. 48 00:01:49,020 --> 00:01:52,139 But for me as a social scientist, 49 00:01:52,140 --> 00:01:54,149 this is a crazy question. 50 00:01:54,150 --> 00:01:56,219 So what's hacking? 51 00:01:56,220 --> 00:01:59,159 That's sort of really big question. 52 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,259 And because this is a tiny little 53 00:02:01,260 --> 00:02:03,479 talk, I will 54 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:04,949 be talking about something that is a 55 00:02:04,950 --> 00:02:05,849 little smaller. 56 00:02:05,850 --> 00:02:08,008 I will be talking about concepts 57 00:02:08,009 --> 00:02:10,830 of hacking in academic research. 58 00:02:12,690 --> 00:02:14,849 How does academic research 59 00:02:14,850 --> 00:02:16,229 conceive of hacking? 60 00:02:17,390 --> 00:02:19,249 Academic research is increasingly 61 00:02:19,250 --> 00:02:21,469 interested in hacking 62 00:02:21,470 --> 00:02:23,209 research fields that are interested in 63 00:02:23,210 --> 00:02:24,949 hacking all the social sciences 64 00:02:24,950 --> 00:02:27,739 generally, but also interdisciplinary 65 00:02:27,740 --> 00:02:29,809 fields that bridge between social 66 00:02:29,810 --> 00:02:32,539 sciences and technology, design, 67 00:02:32,540 --> 00:02:34,639 engineering, informatics and 68 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:36,709 computer science fields 69 00:02:36,710 --> 00:02:38,989 such as human computer interaction 70 00:02:38,990 --> 00:02:41,279 or shot HCI. 71 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,399 Now, if research seeks 72 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,499 to study practices such as 73 00:02:45,500 --> 00:02:47,749 hacking, typically there's 74 00:02:47,750 --> 00:02:50,599 some form of exchange involved 75 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,029 exchange between those who are doing 76 00:02:53,030 --> 00:02:55,369 the study, running the study and those 77 00:02:55,370 --> 00:02:57,739 who are studied and were observed, 78 00:02:57,740 --> 00:02:59,690 interviewed and so on. 79 00:03:00,980 --> 00:03:03,139 However, Pfeiffer, probably 80 00:03:03,140 --> 00:03:05,629 many of you know him, a blogger 81 00:03:05,630 --> 00:03:07,609 of the German hacking community want 82 00:03:07,610 --> 00:03:09,559 hackers against collaborating with 83 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:10,799 researchers. 84 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:11,800 Here's a quote. 85 00:03:13,580 --> 00:03:16,099 I quickly translate the first part into 86 00:03:16,100 --> 00:03:17,119 into English. 87 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,219 So lately, he writes, 88 00:03:19,220 --> 00:03:21,049 There has been a lot of research about 89 00:03:21,050 --> 00:03:23,209 hacking, about hacking communities and 90 00:03:23,210 --> 00:03:25,399 hacker spaces, also about groups 91 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,019 such as Occupy. 92 00:03:27,020 --> 00:03:29,089 If they these researchers knock 93 00:03:29,090 --> 00:03:31,819 on your door, don't tell them anything 94 00:03:31,820 --> 00:03:33,619 just because they are polite and nice, 95 00:03:34,700 --> 00:03:36,469 you don't have to cooperate. 96 00:03:36,470 --> 00:03:39,049 So and he goes on suggesting 97 00:03:39,050 --> 00:03:41,209 that these nerdy scientists that knock on 98 00:03:41,210 --> 00:03:43,249 your door are sent by the bad guys, think 99 00:03:43,250 --> 00:03:45,739 tanks, consulting companies, corporate 100 00:03:45,740 --> 00:03:48,019 and public agencies who are afraid 101 00:03:48,020 --> 00:03:50,659 of hackers and want to spy on them. 102 00:03:50,660 --> 00:03:52,879 So the thing is, I don't know 103 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,769 anything about that spying business. 104 00:03:54,770 --> 00:03:56,959 I'm sorry, I can't tell you about 105 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,869 that. But what I can tell you is 106 00:03:59,870 --> 00:04:02,119 what academic research about hacking 107 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,669 actually looks like, how academic 108 00:04:04,670 --> 00:04:06,859 research conceives of hacking and 109 00:04:06,860 --> 00:04:09,019 how it conceptually approaches 110 00:04:09,020 --> 00:04:10,020 hacking. 111 00:04:11,970 --> 00:04:14,249 But before I do that, before 112 00:04:14,250 --> 00:04:16,739 I give you an overview of academic 113 00:04:16,740 --> 00:04:18,869 approaches to hacking, I want to give 114 00:04:18,870 --> 00:04:19,889 you the back story. 115 00:04:19,890 --> 00:04:22,049 I want to tell you why I'm 116 00:04:22,050 --> 00:04:24,149 doing this, actually. 117 00:04:24,150 --> 00:04:26,459 So hacking is not my 118 00:04:26,460 --> 00:04:28,349 main research business. 119 00:04:28,350 --> 00:04:30,599 Hacking, sort of a weird side interest 120 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:31,709 of mine. 121 00:04:31,710 --> 00:04:33,569 And I've been twice at the Congress 122 00:04:33,570 --> 00:04:36,389 before a couple of years ago in 2010 123 00:04:36,390 --> 00:04:37,589 and 2011. 124 00:04:37,590 --> 00:04:39,779 And I liked it very much. 125 00:04:39,780 --> 00:04:42,089 And at the same time, I became 126 00:04:42,090 --> 00:04:44,939 increasingly interested in HCI, 127 00:04:44,940 --> 00:04:47,789 that is, in human computer interaction. 128 00:04:47,790 --> 00:04:49,949 And I realized that in this field 129 00:04:49,950 --> 00:04:52,859 HCI, there's a growing literature 130 00:04:52,860 --> 00:04:53,860 about hacking. 131 00:04:55,180 --> 00:04:57,789 So FCI is a research field, 132 00:04:57,790 --> 00:04:59,619 is about the ways in which humans 133 00:04:59,620 --> 00:05:01,389 interact with computers, it's part 134 00:05:01,390 --> 00:05:03,489 social, part technical, 135 00:05:03,490 --> 00:05:06,219 it's part observing and understanding 136 00:05:06,220 --> 00:05:08,379 users and part building 137 00:05:08,380 --> 00:05:09,819 and designing for users. 138 00:05:09,820 --> 00:05:12,069 So users HCI is typically about 139 00:05:12,070 --> 00:05:14,049 users. What do users want? 140 00:05:14,050 --> 00:05:15,249 What do they do? 141 00:05:15,250 --> 00:05:17,139 How can they be triggered into doing the 142 00:05:17,140 --> 00:05:18,140 right thing? 143 00:05:19,510 --> 00:05:21,279 Researching human computer interaction 144 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:24,189 has recently become very, very interested 145 00:05:24,190 --> 00:05:26,859 in hacking, but also in hacker spaces 146 00:05:26,860 --> 00:05:30,249 making and Do-It-Yourself practices. 147 00:05:30,250 --> 00:05:32,619 Hacking is interesting for HCI because 148 00:05:32,620 --> 00:05:35,139 it is seen as a model for somehow 149 00:05:35,140 --> 00:05:37,449 engaging more actively, more 150 00:05:37,450 --> 00:05:39,129 deeply with computers. 151 00:05:40,350 --> 00:05:42,429 There are a lot of funding applications 152 00:05:42,430 --> 00:05:44,279 written about hacking at the moment, 153 00:05:45,550 --> 00:05:47,619 but I didn't somehow I didn't like 154 00:05:47,620 --> 00:05:49,749 the way HCI 155 00:05:49,750 --> 00:05:51,669 research approaches hacking. 156 00:05:51,670 --> 00:05:53,289 I found it lacking. 157 00:05:53,290 --> 00:05:55,599 I found it a bit disappointing because 158 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,669 I think this kind of research was, 159 00:05:57,670 --> 00:05:59,919 to my mind, blind and blind 160 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,649 to hacking infrastructural scope. 161 00:06:02,650 --> 00:06:04,959 Hacking is not just about modifying 162 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,109 artifacts, it's about infrastructures, 163 00:06:08,110 --> 00:06:10,299 reconfiguring infrastructures, 164 00:06:10,300 --> 00:06:11,529 as I see it. 165 00:06:11,530 --> 00:06:14,260 And perhaps even more importantly, 166 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:17,589 this research was blind to the political 167 00:06:17,590 --> 00:06:19,719 messages of hacking hacking 168 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:21,909 practices, communicate a political 169 00:06:21,910 --> 00:06:23,649 sentiment, communicate political 170 00:06:23,650 --> 00:06:24,759 messages. 171 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,259 And I didn't find that in that 172 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:27,609 literature. 173 00:06:27,610 --> 00:06:29,679 So in the remainder of my talk, I want 174 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,449 to introduce some of these research 175 00:06:31,450 --> 00:06:34,029 approaches that I find lacking 176 00:06:34,030 --> 00:06:36,279 and I say lacking sort 177 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:38,589 of academic diplomacy, 178 00:06:38,590 --> 00:06:40,899 because much of this research is 179 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:43,299 good research. It's not bad research. 180 00:06:43,300 --> 00:06:45,369 It's just that it leaves out very 181 00:06:45,370 --> 00:06:47,559 important parts of the picture, the 182 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,869 larger picture of what hacking aspires 183 00:06:49,870 --> 00:06:51,249 or can aspire to be. 184 00:06:52,260 --> 00:06:54,409 So and I also introduce 185 00:06:54,410 --> 00:06:56,289 some research approaches that I really 186 00:06:56,290 --> 00:06:58,479 like that are much 187 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,909 better at grasping the larger picture 188 00:07:00,910 --> 00:07:02,439 and that are doing justice to the 189 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,049 political messages that hacking practices 190 00:07:05,050 --> 00:07:06,799 can convey. 191 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:07,800 So. 192 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,149 A first approach, conceptual 193 00:07:12,150 --> 00:07:14,429 approach to hacking, hacking as 194 00:07:14,430 --> 00:07:16,350 creative and ad hoc 195 00:07:17,850 --> 00:07:19,589 for researchers and human computer 196 00:07:19,590 --> 00:07:21,689 interaction, hacking is interesting 197 00:07:21,690 --> 00:07:24,869 because it approaches things differently. 198 00:07:24,870 --> 00:07:26,999 It it breaks things. 199 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,069 It turns them upside down 200 00:07:29,070 --> 00:07:30,119 and improvises. 201 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:31,649 Hacking is interesting because it is 202 00:07:31,650 --> 00:07:33,809 creative and it is creative, often 203 00:07:33,810 --> 00:07:35,850 an unplanned, ad hoc manner. 204 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,779 That's why Joseph Paradiso and 205 00:07:39,780 --> 00:07:42,119 he's working with von Hippel. 206 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,459 Many of you probably know that guy 207 00:07:44,460 --> 00:07:46,259 Paradiso and his collaborators 208 00:07:46,260 --> 00:07:48,989 characterize hacking as ad hoc, clashing. 209 00:07:48,990 --> 00:07:51,119 So he has a quote, hacking is 210 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,909 appropriating, modifying or clashing 211 00:07:53,910 --> 00:07:55,979 existing resources, devices, 212 00:07:55,980 --> 00:07:58,289 hardware, software or anything within 213 00:07:58,290 --> 00:08:00,839 reach to suit other purposes, 214 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:02,879 often in an ingenious fashion. 215 00:08:03,990 --> 00:08:06,119 And hacking is 216 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,519 also described in sort of the same 217 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,709 manner as opportunistic practice 218 00:08:10,710 --> 00:08:13,049 with an ad hoc nature. 219 00:08:13,050 --> 00:08:15,029 And there's more researchers who follow 220 00:08:15,030 --> 00:08:16,619 that line of thinking. 221 00:08:16,620 --> 00:08:18,599 For example, the use of tools and the 222 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,669 making of tools and hacker spaces is 223 00:08:20,670 --> 00:08:24,389 described as ad hoc activity, 224 00:08:24,390 --> 00:08:26,489 making the most of what is 225 00:08:26,490 --> 00:08:28,259 at hand. And if you don't have a tool, 226 00:08:28,260 --> 00:08:29,279 you make it. 227 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,469 And if you don't have the stuff to make 228 00:08:31,470 --> 00:08:33,658 a tool, you just make it anyway with 229 00:08:33,659 --> 00:08:36,329 different stuff. So and 230 00:08:36,330 --> 00:08:38,279 that's a kind of creativity that many 231 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,918 researchers in human computer interaction 232 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:42,569 find so inspiring. 233 00:08:42,570 --> 00:08:44,699 And they want to tap into that source of 234 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:46,499 inspiration, too. 235 00:08:46,500 --> 00:08:47,969 And that's fine. 236 00:08:47,970 --> 00:08:50,939 But it offers a very narrow perspective 237 00:08:50,940 --> 00:08:53,219 on hacking, sort of liking the larger 238 00:08:53,220 --> 00:08:55,679 frame. I believe 239 00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:57,779 the tricky question is what's 240 00:08:57,780 --> 00:08:58,889 what's the motivation? 241 00:08:58,890 --> 00:09:00,959 What are the interests behind this kind 242 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:02,219 of research? 243 00:09:02,220 --> 00:09:04,709 Is it a pedagogical interest in learning, 244 00:09:04,710 --> 00:09:06,899 trying to adapt the forms of learning 245 00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:09,159 that you find in hacking communities for 246 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,309 mainstream education at schools and 247 00:09:11,310 --> 00:09:12,929 universities? 248 00:09:12,930 --> 00:09:15,329 That's one line of research. 249 00:09:15,330 --> 00:09:17,639 And for researchers, it's very, 250 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,889 very fascinating to see 251 00:09:19,890 --> 00:09:22,109 how very complicated, very 252 00:09:22,110 --> 00:09:24,269 technical knowledge, but also very hands 253 00:09:24,270 --> 00:09:26,459 on knowledge is disseminated in 254 00:09:26,460 --> 00:09:28,919 online communities. 255 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,019 But often the motivation to research 256 00:09:31,020 --> 00:09:32,549 hacking is a different one. 257 00:09:32,550 --> 00:09:34,439 It's an interest in innovation and 258 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,179 economic value. 259 00:09:36,180 --> 00:09:37,949 And the question then is, do these 260 00:09:37,950 --> 00:09:39,869 research interests align with the 261 00:09:39,870 --> 00:09:41,789 interests that people in the hacking 262 00:09:41,790 --> 00:09:42,790 community have? 263 00:09:44,090 --> 00:09:46,639 So innovation, economic 264 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:47,809 value. 265 00:09:47,810 --> 00:09:49,879 Let me give you some examples for 266 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,219 how research frames hacking 267 00:09:52,220 --> 00:09:53,269 as innovation. 268 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,509 Research in the field of HCI has 269 00:09:58,510 --> 00:10:01,119 described hacking in these academic 270 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,339 sorry, in these academic papers 271 00:10:03,340 --> 00:10:05,529 as innovative leisure 272 00:10:05,530 --> 00:10:06,879 practice. 273 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,129 It has also described hacking as end 274 00:10:09,130 --> 00:10:11,409 user innovation or a form 275 00:10:11,410 --> 00:10:15,189 of user driven product development. 276 00:10:15,190 --> 00:10:17,499 Hacking has also been called a simple 277 00:10:17,500 --> 00:10:20,159 way to speed up prototype development. 278 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,319 So this is all about innovation, finding 279 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,419 a new take on technology, 280 00:10:25,420 --> 00:10:27,519 innovation and innovation is 281 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:28,519 an economic term. 282 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,399 Innovation is something that possesses 283 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,069 economic value, something that someone 284 00:10:33,070 --> 00:10:35,169 can make money with. 285 00:10:35,170 --> 00:10:37,569 So and you find this line of thought also 286 00:10:37,570 --> 00:10:39,339 in the work of other researchers, for 287 00:10:39,340 --> 00:10:41,259 example, Sylvia Lindner and 288 00:10:41,260 --> 00:10:43,899 collaborators, they studied hacker spaces 289 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:45,999 in China and the US and they 290 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,399 went to these hacker spaces, observe 291 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,529 people, talk to them, interview them, 292 00:10:50,530 --> 00:10:51,729 participated. 293 00:10:51,730 --> 00:10:54,159 And when they wrote up their research 294 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,079 and turned it into an academic paper, 295 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,599 what they wrote was this hacker spaces 296 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,179 as sites of innovation using 297 00:11:01,180 --> 00:11:02,859 oh, that's this one. 298 00:11:02,860 --> 00:11:04,269 And she has a longer quote. 299 00:11:05,890 --> 00:11:08,019 Our research suggests 300 00:11:08,020 --> 00:11:10,779 that we need to see hacker spaces 301 00:11:10,780 --> 00:11:13,239 not just as a place that amortizes 302 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,369 the cost of a laser cutter and a 3D 303 00:11:15,370 --> 00:11:17,559 printer across hundreds of people. 304 00:11:17,560 --> 00:11:19,179 It is a place where people are 305 00:11:19,180 --> 00:11:21,249 experimenting with new ideas about the 306 00:11:21,250 --> 00:11:23,559 relationships among corporations, 307 00:11:23,560 --> 00:11:26,319 designers and consumers. 308 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,689 And what they observe and are interested 309 00:11:28,690 --> 00:11:30,549 in observing is the shift. 310 00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:32,479 Quote again from Hobbie to 311 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,330 entrepreneurial practice. 312 00:11:35,890 --> 00:11:38,559 And that's zooming in on economic value 313 00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:41,319 and I have sort of a very ambivalent 314 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,539 stance towards this perspective, I 315 00:11:43,540 --> 00:11:45,849 don't think hacking is essentially 316 00:11:45,850 --> 00:11:47,769 about business and product. 317 00:11:47,770 --> 00:11:49,869 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I 318 00:11:49,870 --> 00:11:52,389 can see that this economic perspective 319 00:11:52,390 --> 00:11:54,639 is doing a nice PR job for the hacking 320 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,189 community, especially the especially 321 00:11:57,190 --> 00:11:59,319 in the US context. 322 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:00,729 To say that hacking is about 323 00:12:00,730 --> 00:12:03,009 technological innovation is one way 324 00:12:03,010 --> 00:12:05,019 to decriminalize it. 325 00:12:05,020 --> 00:12:06,020 It's a way 326 00:12:07,290 --> 00:12:09,339 that may be a good thing, but it's also a 327 00:12:09,340 --> 00:12:11,409 way that completely leaves aside the 328 00:12:11,410 --> 00:12:13,749 political sentiment that much of hacking 329 00:12:13,750 --> 00:12:15,609 carries with itself. 330 00:12:15,610 --> 00:12:18,129 At least it's at least a side political 331 00:12:18,130 --> 00:12:20,199 sentiment. And that's why I 332 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,299 say with this epidemic 333 00:12:22,300 --> 00:12:24,699 academic diplomacy, I find this approach 334 00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:26,169 a little lacking. 335 00:12:26,170 --> 00:12:28,629 So, um, 336 00:12:28,630 --> 00:12:30,999 so what do you do as a researcher? 337 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:32,889 If you don't like the research literature 338 00:12:32,890 --> 00:12:34,599 that you have, you look for more 339 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:35,769 literature. 340 00:12:35,770 --> 00:12:38,139 And if human computer interaction 341 00:12:38,140 --> 00:12:40,359 doesn't get it entirely right, 342 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,459 maybe others do, maybe 343 00:12:42,460 --> 00:12:44,649 social scientists, anthropologists, 344 00:12:44,650 --> 00:12:46,719 sociologists. 345 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,939 And in fact, I found research approaches 346 00:12:48,940 --> 00:12:51,099 to hacking that I really like and that 347 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:52,849 are really getting at something. 348 00:12:52,850 --> 00:12:55,029 One of them is this hacking 349 00:12:55,030 --> 00:12:56,409 means transgression, 350 00:12:57,910 --> 00:13:00,099 transgression, what's transgression? 351 00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:02,169 Breaking a rule, violating a 352 00:13:02,170 --> 00:13:03,759 convention. 353 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,239 But hacking, hacking and transgression 354 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,399 and hacking practice can take so many 355 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,249 forms there is legal transgression. 356 00:13:12,250 --> 00:13:13,749 Breaking the law is a legal 357 00:13:13,750 --> 00:13:15,819 transgression, but it doesn't have to 358 00:13:15,820 --> 00:13:17,589 be a law. You can break other things, 359 00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:18,669 too. 360 00:13:18,670 --> 00:13:21,309 You can break economic conventions. 361 00:13:21,310 --> 00:13:23,709 You can break cultural conventions. 362 00:13:23,710 --> 00:13:25,449 Just because you are expected to use your 363 00:13:25,450 --> 00:13:27,159 phone in a certain way doesn't mean you 364 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:28,160 have to do it. 365 00:13:29,020 --> 00:13:31,239 You can break social conventions and 366 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,579 perhaps most importantly, 367 00:13:33,580 --> 00:13:36,400 you can break programing conventions. 368 00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:40,149 Research in various fields has emphasized 369 00:13:40,150 --> 00:13:42,639 this point, particularly in sociology 370 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,200 and of course, in criminology. 371 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:48,849 Kevin Steinmetz and Ethnographer 372 00:13:48,850 --> 00:13:51,249 Publishing and Criminology describes 373 00:13:51,250 --> 00:13:54,369 hacking as transgressive craft. 374 00:13:54,370 --> 00:13:56,409 And for example, the sociologist Paul 375 00:13:56,410 --> 00:13:58,509 Taylor has described hacking as 376 00:13:58,510 --> 00:13:59,510 illicit. 377 00:14:00,340 --> 00:14:03,399 And I think that's getting at something. 378 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,009 A lot of hacking is about transgression, 379 00:14:06,010 --> 00:14:07,539 transgressing conventions. 380 00:14:09,430 --> 00:14:10,430 That's a good thing. 381 00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:13,749 But another important sociological 382 00:14:13,750 --> 00:14:15,939 approach to hacking is this 383 00:14:15,940 --> 00:14:16,940 one. 384 00:14:17,410 --> 00:14:19,389 And here we are getting really to some 385 00:14:19,390 --> 00:14:21,489 conceptual stuff, hacking as 386 00:14:21,490 --> 00:14:24,639 challenging technological determinism, 387 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,009 so technological determinism is the view 388 00:14:27,010 --> 00:14:29,349 that technology completely determines 389 00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:32,109 the social and this view technology 390 00:14:32,110 --> 00:14:34,179 determines what we do, what we think, how 391 00:14:34,180 --> 00:14:37,359 we behave, how we form communities, 392 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,609 how communities function, how societies 393 00:14:39,610 --> 00:14:40,929 function. 394 00:14:40,930 --> 00:14:43,449 And for Silicon Valley, 395 00:14:43,450 --> 00:14:44,379 this may be fine. 396 00:14:44,380 --> 00:14:46,149 For sociologists, this is a horror 397 00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:47,919 scenario, absolutely horror. 398 00:14:49,270 --> 00:14:51,339 Now, some sociologists believe 399 00:14:51,340 --> 00:14:53,949 that hackers are actually their allies 400 00:14:53,950 --> 00:14:56,869 in fighting technological determinism. 401 00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:58,959 For example, the English sociologist Tim 402 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,209 Jordan argues 403 00:15:01,210 --> 00:15:03,969 that hacking both demands and refutes 404 00:15:03,970 --> 00:15:05,889 technological determinism. 405 00:15:05,890 --> 00:15:07,959 Hackers presume that the technologies 406 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:09,909 involved and computers and networks will 407 00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:11,739 determine certain actions. 408 00:15:11,740 --> 00:15:13,989 And they presume also it is possible 409 00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:16,629 for them to alter and recreate 410 00:15:16,630 --> 00:15:18,039 such determinations. 411 00:15:19,070 --> 00:15:21,859 So fighting technological determinism, 412 00:15:21,860 --> 00:15:23,659 I think we're getting a little closer to 413 00:15:23,660 --> 00:15:25,849 the scope and the political message 414 00:15:25,850 --> 00:15:28,039 of hacking, and we're getting closer 415 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,409 to a research approach that I really 416 00:15:30,410 --> 00:15:32,539 admire, hacking 417 00:15:32,540 --> 00:15:35,869 as practiced liberalism. 418 00:15:35,870 --> 00:15:38,449 So that's another perspective 419 00:15:38,450 --> 00:15:40,729 in the social sciences, most prominently 420 00:15:40,730 --> 00:15:43,309 voiced by Gabriella Coleman, a U.S. 421 00:15:43,310 --> 00:15:46,699 anthropologist, and her collaborators. 422 00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:48,469 Many of you probably know Gabriella 423 00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:50,209 Coleman. She just published a book about 424 00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:52,549 Anonymous and how Anonymous morphed 425 00:15:52,550 --> 00:15:55,099 into political activism. 426 00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:56,659 She's interested in the political 427 00:15:56,660 --> 00:15:57,889 dimension of hacking. 428 00:15:57,890 --> 00:16:00,379 And together with Alex Galab, she 429 00:16:00,380 --> 00:16:02,569 has argued that hacking is, in fact 430 00:16:02,570 --> 00:16:04,879 practiced liberalism. 431 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,299 What underlies hacking? 432 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:08,479 So that argument is the 433 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,609 liberal ethos of freedom, 434 00:16:10,610 --> 00:16:12,829 freedom from corporate and political 435 00:16:12,830 --> 00:16:15,109 surveillance, freedom to do stuff, 436 00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:17,569 to reclaim proprietary knowledge, 437 00:16:17,570 --> 00:16:20,299 create technology and disseminate 438 00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:22,579 technological knowledge. 439 00:16:22,580 --> 00:16:23,999 And what about transgression? 440 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,119 You're actually Coleman and Golove 441 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,369 described transgression, too, 442 00:16:28,370 --> 00:16:31,309 as a reflection of American liberalism. 443 00:16:31,310 --> 00:16:33,889 It reflects, they argue, the very liberal 444 00:16:33,890 --> 00:16:36,529 value of creative individuality 445 00:16:36,530 --> 00:16:38,809 and individuality that expresses 446 00:16:38,810 --> 00:16:41,029 itself against the conventions of 447 00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:43,189 mainstream society. 448 00:16:43,190 --> 00:16:45,559 So what this work shows, in a way, 449 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,289 is that hacking is true American 450 00:16:48,290 --> 00:16:49,639 liberalism. 451 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,099 One message that I read here is 452 00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:53,179 Hello America. 453 00:16:53,180 --> 00:16:54,979 Don't be afraid of your hackers. 454 00:16:54,980 --> 00:16:56,759 Don't don't hate them. 455 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,699 They are your true self. 456 00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:01,319 That's that's one of the messages. 457 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,469 Here's a quote, hacking 458 00:17:03,470 --> 00:17:05,838 sort of marginalized or misunderstood 459 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:07,999 in popular culture as the practice 460 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,159 of deviant subculture, in 461 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,529 fact, reveals the continuing 462 00:17:12,530 --> 00:17:14,598 relevance, if also the contradictions 463 00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:16,669 of the liberal traditions to 464 00:17:16,670 --> 00:17:18,019 the digital present. 465 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:20,899 The only thing to keep in mind here is 466 00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:22,699 that this is a very American story and 467 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:24,979 that the European perspective might 468 00:17:24,980 --> 00:17:26,329 look a little differently. 469 00:17:27,490 --> 00:17:28,490 So. 470 00:17:30,070 --> 00:17:32,079 Now that I'm almost at the end of my 471 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,389 talk, I want to get back to something 472 00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:35,889 that I told you at the beginning. 473 00:17:35,890 --> 00:17:37,839 I told you that it's important for me at 474 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,029 least to have a conceptual 475 00:17:40,030 --> 00:17:42,489 understanding of hacking, 476 00:17:42,490 --> 00:17:44,829 to be able to say what it is, 477 00:17:44,830 --> 00:17:46,290 to be able to talk about it. 478 00:17:47,740 --> 00:17:49,239 But for me, that's only half of the 479 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,819 story, because once you have a conceptual 480 00:17:51,820 --> 00:17:54,069 understanding of hacking, you can start 481 00:17:54,070 --> 00:17:56,529 challenging, rethinking 482 00:17:56,530 --> 00:17:58,899 and remodeling the other concepts 483 00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:00,579 that you have. 484 00:18:00,580 --> 00:18:02,649 And two concepts that seem to become ever 485 00:18:02,650 --> 00:18:05,109 more important are technology use 486 00:18:05,110 --> 00:18:07,869 and design, use and design. 487 00:18:07,870 --> 00:18:10,449 We talk about design all the time. 488 00:18:10,450 --> 00:18:12,099 We talk a little less about use because 489 00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:14,619 it's so profane in a way. 490 00:18:14,620 --> 00:18:16,959 But design and use are 491 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,880 two sides of a conceptual coin. 492 00:18:20,140 --> 00:18:21,939 And the fascinating thing about hacking 493 00:18:21,940 --> 00:18:24,189 is hacking is challenging the standard 494 00:18:24,190 --> 00:18:26,649 story of first design, 495 00:18:26,650 --> 00:18:28,719 then use 496 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,429 the standard story of first design. 497 00:18:30,430 --> 00:18:32,799 The news is this there's professional 498 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,899 designers and 499 00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:37,089 then there's more or less experienced 500 00:18:37,090 --> 00:18:39,219 users that put more 501 00:18:39,220 --> 00:18:41,319 or less effort into appropriating 502 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,209 a technology. 503 00:18:43,210 --> 00:18:45,939 The ordinary human being is user, 504 00:18:45,940 --> 00:18:48,459 the user supposed to use technology. 505 00:18:48,460 --> 00:18:51,369 And then there's the designer 506 00:18:51,370 --> 00:18:53,319 in the broad sense of the term, also, 507 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,599 including engineers and business 508 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,399 stakeholders. 509 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,169 The designers are privileged, a very 510 00:18:59,170 --> 00:19:01,329 privileged professional, the 511 00:19:01,330 --> 00:19:03,339 designer is powerful and the designer 512 00:19:03,340 --> 00:19:05,529 changes the world 513 00:19:05,530 --> 00:19:06,489 user designer. 514 00:19:06,490 --> 00:19:08,589 So usually there's nothing 515 00:19:08,590 --> 00:19:11,589 much in between or beyond that. 516 00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:13,929 And I find this kind of thinking terribly 517 00:19:13,930 --> 00:19:15,999 limiting that's thinking in very 518 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:17,500 neat squares. 519 00:19:19,330 --> 00:19:21,609 Hecker's, in fact, are 520 00:19:21,610 --> 00:19:24,129 not really they are not really that 521 00:19:24,130 --> 00:19:25,809 they sound really designers and they 522 00:19:25,810 --> 00:19:27,219 aren't really users. 523 00:19:27,220 --> 00:19:28,599 They mix it all up in a way. 524 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,999 Hacking practices mix this up, this 525 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,529 this neat distinction. 526 00:19:32,530 --> 00:19:34,749 So what hacking shows is that this 527 00:19:34,750 --> 00:19:37,389 neat story of first design, 528 00:19:37,390 --> 00:19:39,609 then use doesn't really work out 529 00:19:39,610 --> 00:19:41,439 and that it shouldn't work out. 530 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:42,909 It shouldn't work out. 531 00:19:42,910 --> 00:19:45,009 This story needs to be challenged. 532 00:19:45,010 --> 00:19:47,199 Otherwise we end up in a world with 533 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,809 a class of privileged designers 534 00:19:49,810 --> 00:19:52,179 and the large group of users 535 00:19:52,180 --> 00:19:54,429 who can use stuff, maybe choose not 536 00:19:54,430 --> 00:19:56,679 to use stuff, maybe change 537 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,989 the color of the phone, but not much 538 00:19:58,990 --> 00:19:59,990 else. 539 00:20:01,790 --> 00:20:02,790 Um. 540 00:20:03,350 --> 00:20:05,449 To wrap this talk up, a quick 541 00:20:05,450 --> 00:20:07,819 conclusion, I was basically 542 00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:09,899 talking about two questions, what is 543 00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:12,019 taking the short answer is it can 544 00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:13,909 be all kinds of things. 545 00:20:13,910 --> 00:20:16,429 There's a range of approaches, research 546 00:20:16,430 --> 00:20:18,079 approaches to hacking. 547 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,779 And it very much depends on the values 548 00:20:20,780 --> 00:20:23,219 and research interests that underlie 549 00:20:23,220 --> 00:20:24,679 your research. 550 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,719 That's that's the thing to get it. 551 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,089 I think how 552 00:20:29,090 --> 00:20:31,489 research conceives of hacking depends 553 00:20:31,490 --> 00:20:33,619 on interests 554 00:20:33,620 --> 00:20:35,239 sometimes. It also depends on funding 555 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,430 applications and on values. 556 00:20:38,740 --> 00:20:40,759 And then there was a second question, the 557 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,159 question Seyffer raised. 558 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,829 Should hackers talk to researchers 559 00:20:45,830 --> 00:20:47,749 if they knock on their door? 560 00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:49,489 I'd say, why not? 561 00:20:49,490 --> 00:20:50,449 Why not? 562 00:20:50,450 --> 00:20:52,159 But better first, have an open 563 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,709 conversation about interests 564 00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:55,879 and values. 565 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:56,880 Thank you. 566 00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:10,449 Thank you for the talk, and, uh, we 567 00:21:10,450 --> 00:21:12,669 have time for a couple of questions, if 568 00:21:12,670 --> 00:21:14,799 you have any questions, just line up in 569 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,169 front of one of the microphones 570 00:21:17,170 --> 00:21:18,869 distributed all over the cell. 571 00:21:20,140 --> 00:21:21,679 Yeah, please. 572 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,019 Hello. 573 00:21:23,020 --> 00:21:24,639 Um, thank you for the talk. 574 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,649 First thing I think was very well 575 00:21:26,650 --> 00:21:29,089 structured and I had fun following it. 576 00:21:29,090 --> 00:21:31,209 Uh, however, I kind of tuned 577 00:21:31,210 --> 00:21:33,009 in a little late and maybe you took 578 00:21:33,010 --> 00:21:35,079 something, uh, said something about I 579 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,479 didn't get um. 580 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,119 You said something about the concept of 581 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:41,679 innovation. Actually, what I'm getting at 582 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,869 is just a little detail, but, um, 583 00:21:43,870 --> 00:21:45,789 the concept of innovation being 584 00:21:45,790 --> 00:21:47,949 economical and 585 00:21:47,950 --> 00:21:50,019 um, I wondered, is it 586 00:21:50,020 --> 00:21:52,139 often or is it predominantly 587 00:21:52,140 --> 00:21:53,439 interpreted that way? 588 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,199 Because you could also innovate 589 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,430 because you have a certain need, 590 00:21:58,630 --> 00:22:00,369 a certain what a need. 591 00:22:00,370 --> 00:22:02,469 You're just playing around and something 592 00:22:02,470 --> 00:22:05,139 fun happens and say, uh, accidental 593 00:22:05,140 --> 00:22:06,099 innovation. 594 00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:08,229 Yeah, but but I think the term 595 00:22:08,230 --> 00:22:11,409 itself has a strong economic connotation. 596 00:22:11,410 --> 00:22:13,569 So if you talk about innovation typically 597 00:22:13,570 --> 00:22:16,479 as a sort of a research term, 598 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,279 then you talk about something that that 599 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:19,689 has a money value. 600 00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:21,549 And of course, there's also social and 601 00:22:21,550 --> 00:22:23,529 social innovation, organizational 602 00:22:23,530 --> 00:22:24,549 innovation. 603 00:22:24,550 --> 00:22:27,549 But but this term has strong roots, 604 00:22:27,550 --> 00:22:29,709 apart from our everyday use of the word, 605 00:22:29,710 --> 00:22:32,469 maybe has strong roots in economic 606 00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:34,119 in an economic vocabulary. 607 00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:36,249 So if a researcher writes a paper about 608 00:22:36,250 --> 00:22:38,739 hacking is innovation, um, 609 00:22:38,740 --> 00:22:40,630 there's an underlying economic value. 610 00:22:41,690 --> 00:22:43,849 OK, thanks, interesting, because I, as 611 00:22:43,850 --> 00:22:45,949 a user of that language, have 612 00:22:45,950 --> 00:22:47,479 a completely different understanding of 613 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,609 it, like what you said or your everyday 614 00:22:49,610 --> 00:22:51,019 perception of there is a difference 615 00:22:51,020 --> 00:22:52,639 between everyday language and what you 616 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,019 write in a research paper. 617 00:22:54,020 --> 00:22:55,020 OK, thanks. 618 00:22:56,590 --> 00:22:58,779 OK, there's another question on the left 619 00:22:58,780 --> 00:22:59,780 microphone. 620 00:23:00,490 --> 00:23:01,789 Thank you. 621 00:23:01,790 --> 00:23:03,999 I actually have two questions, 622 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,649 if that's all right. 623 00:23:05,650 --> 00:23:08,079 You talked a lot about, uh, innovations 624 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,319 and also about, uh, and 625 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:11,379 cosponsorship. 626 00:23:11,380 --> 00:23:13,839 And I kind of got, uh, reminded 627 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,779 of, uh, Schumpeter's idea of, uh, 628 00:23:16,780 --> 00:23:18,610 um, creative destruction. 629 00:23:19,780 --> 00:23:21,849 And, um, but my, 630 00:23:21,850 --> 00:23:24,009 uh, first question is, uh, do you 631 00:23:24,010 --> 00:23:26,559 see a problem that, uh, because 632 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,979 Hecker's, uh, uh, decriminalized 633 00:23:29,980 --> 00:23:32,319 and, uh, I'm all seen 634 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,809 as these, uh, innovators 635 00:23:34,810 --> 00:23:37,149 that the that actually 636 00:23:37,150 --> 00:23:39,279 the society is changing the heck 637 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,499 us that they that the heck 638 00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:44,169 want to actually want to change. 639 00:23:44,170 --> 00:23:46,449 Uh uh, OK, OK. 640 00:23:46,450 --> 00:23:48,670 I'm not sure I got the letter proper, but 641 00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:51,969 I don't see a problem in decriminalize 642 00:23:51,970 --> 00:23:53,439 decriminalizing Hecker's. 643 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,329 But I see a problem in reducing the 644 00:23:55,330 --> 00:23:57,759 phenomenon of hacking to an economic 645 00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,859 phenomenon. I think that I think 646 00:23:59,860 --> 00:24:01,629 that that's not doing justice to the 647 00:24:01,630 --> 00:24:03,999 phenomenon. I mean, that's sort of a very 648 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,159 flat, very narrow picture of 649 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:07,419 it. And I don't think it serves the 650 00:24:07,420 --> 00:24:08,420 community. 651 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,319 If we now portray in research 652 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,329 portraying hackers as the new 653 00:24:13,330 --> 00:24:15,819 entrepreneurs, I think that's 654 00:24:15,820 --> 00:24:18,129 I think that that's very 655 00:24:18,130 --> 00:24:20,199 limited, if not a decremental way 656 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:21,200 of approaching it. 657 00:24:22,170 --> 00:24:24,599 And my second question, 658 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,909 as a social scientist myself, 659 00:24:26,910 --> 00:24:29,819 I always feel like 660 00:24:29,820 --> 00:24:32,249 social scientists and, um, 661 00:24:32,250 --> 00:24:34,640 uh, informational 662 00:24:35,770 --> 00:24:37,649 people, scientists, computer scientists. 663 00:24:37,650 --> 00:24:39,749 Thank you. Uh, uh, 664 00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:42,749 speak two completely different languages 665 00:24:42,750 --> 00:24:43,769 at some point. 666 00:24:43,770 --> 00:24:46,259 And my question is, 667 00:24:46,260 --> 00:24:48,599 how far do you think something 668 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,789 is lost or gained 669 00:24:50,790 --> 00:24:53,309 if you, uh, do a translation 670 00:24:53,310 --> 00:24:55,439 into a social scientist language or 671 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:56,519 that's the way you want. 672 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,589 I mean, that's a very that's 673 00:24:58,590 --> 00:24:59,729 a very good point. 674 00:24:59,730 --> 00:25:02,999 I've been struggling with this a lot. 675 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,099 So this is I mean, you can frame it 676 00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:07,469 as a problem of interdisciplinarity 677 00:25:07,470 --> 00:25:09,779 or just as a problem of two cultures 678 00:25:09,780 --> 00:25:10,799 or whatever. 679 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,989 But there is there is sort of a deep gap 680 00:25:12,990 --> 00:25:15,509 between someone who's thinking and social 681 00:25:15,510 --> 00:25:18,029 scientists terms and 682 00:25:18,030 --> 00:25:18,809 computer science. 683 00:25:18,810 --> 00:25:20,819 There is a there is there's sort of a gap 684 00:25:20,820 --> 00:25:21,839 between that. 685 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,999 And I think the 686 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,669 thing to keep in mind is that 687 00:25:26,670 --> 00:25:28,529 different cultures are different. 688 00:25:28,530 --> 00:25:30,329 Academic cultures are good at different 689 00:25:30,330 --> 00:25:32,489 things. So social scientists have 690 00:25:32,490 --> 00:25:34,649 a very refined vocabulary when 691 00:25:34,650 --> 00:25:35,879 talking about power. 692 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,189 Communities, societies 693 00:25:38,190 --> 00:25:40,919 and computer scientists have a very 694 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,989 refined vocabulary when talking 695 00:25:42,990 --> 00:25:44,909 about programing languages. 696 00:25:44,910 --> 00:25:47,009 And they may not have that defined 697 00:25:47,010 --> 00:25:49,139 vocabulary when they are talking about 698 00:25:49,140 --> 00:25:50,279 societies. 699 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,649 So for a social scientist who hears 700 00:25:52,650 --> 00:25:54,059 computer scientists talking about 701 00:25:54,060 --> 00:25:55,889 societies, sometimes it's, you know, 702 00:25:55,890 --> 00:25:57,689 sometimes you are taking a bit aback 703 00:25:57,690 --> 00:25:59,519 because you think, oh, my God, where's 704 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,619 the conceptual finesse here? 705 00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:03,719 But the thing to keep in mind is I 706 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,849 think that social scientists 707 00:26:05,850 --> 00:26:07,499 are often observers. 708 00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:09,419 And when you when you come here and to 709 00:26:09,420 --> 00:26:11,489 get into you get into immerse into 710 00:26:11,490 --> 00:26:13,589 this hacking culture, this 711 00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:15,719 is a culture of sort of actually doing 712 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,339 things and getting things done. 713 00:26:17,340 --> 00:26:18,839 And I find that very amazing. 714 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,759 And that's something I think social 715 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,859 scientists have to remind 716 00:26:22,860 --> 00:26:25,019 themselves of. 717 00:26:25,020 --> 00:26:25,979 Thank you. 718 00:26:25,980 --> 00:26:28,229 OK, we have a question from the Internet. 719 00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:29,339 We take that first. 720 00:26:29,340 --> 00:26:31,799 I try to treat this as a stack, so I pop 721 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,139 it off the 722 00:26:34,140 --> 00:26:34,859 Internet. 723 00:26:34,860 --> 00:26:36,989 Really thanks you for your talk and 724 00:26:36,990 --> 00:26:38,789 enjoyed your home delivery. 725 00:26:38,790 --> 00:26:40,889 And the question is, do you think that 726 00:26:40,890 --> 00:26:43,229 hacking should be accessible to all? 727 00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:45,509 And how can we get those who do not 728 00:26:45,510 --> 00:26:47,669 understand what hacking is involved 729 00:26:47,670 --> 00:26:48,670 in it? 730 00:26:49,030 --> 00:26:51,689 Oh, these are two good questions. 731 00:26:51,690 --> 00:26:53,909 Yeah, I think hacking 732 00:26:53,910 --> 00:26:56,249 I think it would be great if everyone 733 00:26:56,250 --> 00:26:59,159 had sort of the cultural, 734 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,859 social and financial capital 735 00:27:01,860 --> 00:27:04,709 to to to get engaged with hacking. 736 00:27:04,710 --> 00:27:07,199 Unfortunately, I think this 737 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,059 this is not realistic for the near future 738 00:27:09,060 --> 00:27:10,739 because you have to remember that this is 739 00:27:10,740 --> 00:27:12,509 a practice that takes a lot of 740 00:27:13,740 --> 00:27:15,749 it takes time, it takes money, but it 741 00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:17,759 also takes a certain mindset. 742 00:27:19,070 --> 00:27:21,329 Not every not everyone is ready for 743 00:27:21,330 --> 00:27:23,219 that. It takes what we call a social 744 00:27:23,220 --> 00:27:25,409 scientist, cultural capital 745 00:27:25,410 --> 00:27:27,809 do not to actually to take a phone 746 00:27:27,810 --> 00:27:29,879 apart if you purchased the 747 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,339 phone for for a lot of money 748 00:27:32,340 --> 00:27:34,679 and and and you really 749 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,809 don't want to take it apart if it's 750 00:27:36,810 --> 00:27:38,909 the last kind of thing that you were 751 00:27:38,910 --> 00:27:39,899 able to purchase. 752 00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:41,999 So it takes a lot of capital, both in 753 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,219 cultural and financial terms. 754 00:27:44,220 --> 00:27:46,319 But I think as sort 755 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,509 of a societal vision, it's 756 00:27:48,510 --> 00:27:50,459 a nice and good and important vision to 757 00:27:50,460 --> 00:27:53,399 make hacking more widely available. 758 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,099 And the second question, 759 00:27:56,100 --> 00:27:57,869 what was the second question? 760 00:27:57,870 --> 00:27:58,769 Can you repeat? 761 00:27:58,770 --> 00:28:00,929 The second part was how 762 00:28:00,930 --> 00:28:02,909 can we get those who do not understand 763 00:28:02,910 --> 00:28:04,829 what hacking is involved in it? 764 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:07,979 That's also a good question. 765 00:28:07,980 --> 00:28:09,869 I think that's a question of of 766 00:28:09,870 --> 00:28:12,119 communication and dissemination, 767 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:13,979 it's a question of I think 768 00:28:13,980 --> 00:28:15,599 decriminalizing hacking. 769 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,399 I think that's important. 770 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,590 Making hacking again, one of those. 771 00:28:21,450 --> 00:28:23,519 Getting backing away from this 772 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,889 gray zone periphery thingy, 773 00:28:25,890 --> 00:28:28,229 providing giving, having a more positive 774 00:28:28,230 --> 00:28:30,329 image in the eyes 775 00:28:30,330 --> 00:28:32,699 of a broader audience, in the eyes of our 776 00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:34,379 society. 777 00:28:34,380 --> 00:28:36,719 But I think to decriminalize 778 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,059 hacking is there are many ways to do 779 00:28:39,060 --> 00:28:41,399 that. And as I've said, I think 780 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,649 reave, refashioning, hacking as 781 00:28:43,650 --> 00:28:45,719 the new entrepreneurship, I think we 782 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,189 don't want to do so. 783 00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:48,779 That's a it's a difficult task. 784 00:28:50,130 --> 00:28:52,919 OK, so we should have time for two 785 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,049 short questions so that police on the 786 00:28:55,050 --> 00:28:56,609 left, you waited. 787 00:28:56,610 --> 00:28:59,549 Hi, thanks a lot for your perspective. 788 00:28:59,550 --> 00:29:01,619 I have a I mean, my question is kind of 789 00:29:01,620 --> 00:29:03,809 like I was wondering for a clarification 790 00:29:03,810 --> 00:29:05,969 on your position and where 791 00:29:05,970 --> 00:29:07,709 you see yourself as a researcher and a 792 00:29:07,710 --> 00:29:09,899 clarification on your critique 793 00:29:09,900 --> 00:29:12,479 in your in your analysis 794 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,699 of the HCI research 795 00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:16,799 of Lidner or Hartmann, it seems 796 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,989 like you're conflating Hacker, 797 00:29:18,990 --> 00:29:22,439 as one might see here, and cryptanalysis 798 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,509 with hacker as they see in maker 799 00:29:24,510 --> 00:29:25,539 spaces. 800 00:29:25,540 --> 00:29:26,909 Maker spaces are a very much a 801 00:29:26,910 --> 00:29:28,439 commercialized space that it seems like 802 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,239 you're you're kind of brushing together 803 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,309 this wide gamut of lots of things that 804 00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:34,409 can be considered hacking as something 805 00:29:34,410 --> 00:29:36,119 that is being covered by them. 806 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,639 And then you're criticizing the Academy 807 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,619 of researchers in this space. 808 00:29:40,620 --> 00:29:42,029 But at the same time, it seems to be the 809 00:29:42,030 --> 00:29:43,439 same place where you're publishing. 810 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,389 And so how do you see your position in 811 00:29:45,390 --> 00:29:46,559 bettering that? 812 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,959 And how do you see you 813 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,059 yourself as a social scientist 814 00:29:51,060 --> 00:29:53,459 or as a hacker or as a hacker encourager, 815 00:29:53,460 --> 00:29:55,569 as someone who is a part or within it? 816 00:29:55,570 --> 00:29:56,489 Yeah, thank you. 817 00:29:56,490 --> 00:29:57,900 That's a that's an interesting. 818 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,479 I think two questions, first 819 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,669 is question about there's a diversity, 820 00:30:03,670 --> 00:30:06,579 certainly there is making Do-It-Yourself 821 00:30:06,580 --> 00:30:08,229 and hacking and. 822 00:30:10,460 --> 00:30:12,169 I don't think I'm conflating these 823 00:30:12,170 --> 00:30:13,519 things, actually, I think I have a 824 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,409 problem of putting them all into one 825 00:30:15,410 --> 00:30:17,599 bucket, because if you if you put 826 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:18,799 it and that's often done in the 827 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,719 literature, there's often this phrase 828 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,879 hacking and making practices. 829 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,979 And I don't like that because if you put 830 00:30:24,980 --> 00:30:27,079 hacking and making together and 831 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,209 sort of then you end up with 832 00:30:29,210 --> 00:30:31,339 this image of hacking is like making 833 00:30:31,340 --> 00:30:33,799 and making is this commercialized 834 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,929 inventor thingy 835 00:30:35,930 --> 00:30:38,509 very close to Silicon Valley thinking 836 00:30:38,510 --> 00:30:40,159 and stuff. And I don't like that. 837 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,229 I think it should be I should be I think 838 00:30:42,230 --> 00:30:43,759 there should be more diversity in the 839 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,619 literature actually acknowledging these 840 00:30:45,620 --> 00:30:47,539 differences that there is a difference 841 00:30:47,540 --> 00:30:50,509 between rather a apolitical 842 00:30:50,510 --> 00:30:53,029 making practices and practices 843 00:30:53,030 --> 00:30:55,309 that concern something like security 844 00:30:55,310 --> 00:30:57,589 research. So I think we should keep these 845 00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:59,239 things a little more apart. 846 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:00,480 Making is apolitical. 847 00:31:02,270 --> 00:31:04,759 Sorry, all of it, but there are some. 848 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,709 So if we are talking about research 849 00:31:06,710 --> 00:31:09,109 papers in terms of research making 850 00:31:09,110 --> 00:31:11,329 is often portrayed as apolitical 851 00:31:11,330 --> 00:31:13,489 and the cases that they refer to 852 00:31:13,490 --> 00:31:16,039 are often sort of I think 853 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,559 compared to hacking, rather a political 854 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,689 case is not I don't think these things 855 00:31:20,690 --> 00:31:22,699 should be all put into one bucket. 856 00:31:22,700 --> 00:31:24,739 I think there should be more of a. 857 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,109 Sensibility for the diversity of 858 00:31:29,110 --> 00:31:31,359 it and your second question, how 859 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,549 I see myself as a researcher and 860 00:31:33,550 --> 00:31:34,989 that I'm actually publishing in this 861 00:31:34,990 --> 00:31:35,990 film. 862 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,789 I'm I'm about to publish one 863 00:31:39,790 --> 00:31:41,589 paper in this field, it's not my main 864 00:31:41,590 --> 00:31:43,899 sort of research area 865 00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:45,969 and I'm actually publishing in this 866 00:31:45,970 --> 00:31:48,339 field because I think there is a need 867 00:31:48,340 --> 00:31:50,949 for this field HCI to 868 00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:53,499 get more of this perspective 869 00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:55,659 that recognizes political sentiment. 870 00:31:55,660 --> 00:31:57,459 I think there is a lack of research on 871 00:31:57,460 --> 00:31:59,529 that. I think the research 872 00:31:59,530 --> 00:32:01,599 perspective so far is somewhat 873 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:02,829 too narrow. 874 00:32:02,830 --> 00:32:04,899 OK, unfortunately, we're out of time, 875 00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:07,059 um, and we need, 876 00:32:07,060 --> 00:32:08,919 uh, some time to prepare for the next 877 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,809 talk. So thank you for being here and 878 00:32:10,810 --> 00:32:12,549 enjoy the rest of the Congress. 879 00:32:12,550 --> 00:32:13,550 Thanks again.