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If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/490 Thanks! 1 00:00:08,900 --> 00:00:11,689 I'd welcome everybody for the next talk, 2 00:00:11,690 --> 00:00:13,549 the title of the talk is Avoiding Colonel 3 00:00:13,550 --> 00:00:15,769 Panic Europe's Biggest Fails 4 00:00:15,770 --> 00:00:17,959 in digital policy making. 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:19,819 The talk will roughly cover the question 6 00:00:19,820 --> 00:00:22,099 of why the European Union is failing 7 00:00:22,100 --> 00:00:24,349 as an institution and what we can 8 00:00:24,350 --> 00:00:25,459 do about it. 9 00:00:25,460 --> 00:00:27,409 Our lovely speakers are standing right 10 00:00:27,410 --> 00:00:28,339 here next to me. 11 00:00:28,340 --> 00:00:30,409 We have kids and Fiedler, she's the 12 00:00:30,410 --> 00:00:32,478 managing director of European Digital 13 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,309 Rights in Brussels and she's also 14 00:00:34,310 --> 00:00:36,529 connected to Netz Politics dot 15 00:00:36,530 --> 00:00:38,689 org and to digitize, which many of 16 00:00:38,690 --> 00:00:40,819 you know, I guess the second speaker is 17 00:00:40,820 --> 00:00:42,049 Vitaphone Hulst. 18 00:00:42,050 --> 00:00:44,299 He's a city law practitioner by day 19 00:00:44,300 --> 00:00:46,189 and digital rights activist by night, he 20 00:00:46,190 --> 00:00:48,259 says. And now they will answer 21 00:00:48,260 --> 00:00:49,969 for you the question, what we can do 22 00:00:49,970 --> 00:00:52,489 about the European Union's failure. 23 00:00:52,490 --> 00:00:53,899 Thank you very much. Please give them a 24 00:00:53,900 --> 00:00:55,909 warm round of applause and welcome our 25 00:00:55,910 --> 00:00:57,379 two speakers. Thank you so much. 26 00:01:08,860 --> 00:01:11,120 Hired my microphone. 27 00:01:20,650 --> 00:01:22,419 OK, all your angels, can you check the 28 00:01:22,420 --> 00:01:24,369 headsets? I think it was on, but it was 29 00:01:24,370 --> 00:01:26,049 not a cry for power. 30 00:01:26,050 --> 00:01:27,050 Thank you. 31 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,259 OK, yes. Hello, everyone. 32 00:01:29,260 --> 00:01:30,549 Well, my name is Kurson. 33 00:01:30,550 --> 00:01:32,649 This is Walter. 34 00:01:32,650 --> 00:01:34,299 Yeah. Do you want to start? 35 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:35,300 No. 36 00:01:36,220 --> 00:01:38,529 OK, so, yeah, basically beyond 37 00:01:38,530 --> 00:01:40,929 our day jobs and beyond our activism, 38 00:01:40,930 --> 00:01:43,119 we are also both European 39 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,249 citizens or Europeans 40 00:01:45,250 --> 00:01:47,409 and well, we are trying 41 00:01:47,410 --> 00:01:49,689 to actively participate in 42 00:01:49,690 --> 00:01:52,479 Europe's policy-making processes. 43 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,609 So we here at the 44 00:01:54,610 --> 00:01:56,979 started to see we care really 45 00:01:56,980 --> 00:01:58,809 a lot about the resilience of our 46 00:01:58,810 --> 00:02:01,479 technical infrastructures, but 47 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,009 pretty much in the same way. 48 00:02:03,010 --> 00:02:04,929 We also don't want our political 49 00:02:04,930 --> 00:02:07,089 infrastructures that we depend on to 50 00:02:07,090 --> 00:02:08,090 be broken. 51 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,179 And basically, in the last year in 52 00:02:11,180 --> 00:02:13,519 Brussels, we have been on one hand quite 53 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,019 successful, on the other hand, are 54 00:02:15,020 --> 00:02:17,929 completely overwhelmed and outgunned 55 00:02:17,930 --> 00:02:19,189 in that arena. 56 00:02:19,190 --> 00:02:21,409 And in this talk, we want to explore 57 00:02:21,410 --> 00:02:23,239 both the failures on the institutional 58 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,879 side and also on the activism side, 59 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:27,319 because there's room for improvement on 60 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:28,610 both sides of the equation. 61 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,339 So before we start to 62 00:02:33,340 --> 00:02:35,949 delve into the reasons for the failures, 63 00:02:35,950 --> 00:02:38,109 we just wanted to give you quickly 64 00:02:38,110 --> 00:02:40,629 a summary of our top four 65 00:02:41,890 --> 00:02:44,499 top for you fails. 66 00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:46,959 So the first one is that privacy 67 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,209 protections will weaken 68 00:02:49,210 --> 00:02:50,709 the second one, mass surveillance 69 00:02:50,710 --> 00:02:51,939 measures. 70 00:02:51,940 --> 00:02:54,279 Third one, policy based 71 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,169 evidence making instead of 72 00:02:57,370 --> 00:02:59,469 evidence based policy making. 73 00:02:59,470 --> 00:03:01,629 And the last one, well, 74 00:03:01,630 --> 00:03:04,119 our dear commissioner for 75 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,610 the Digital Society and Economy. 76 00:03:08,580 --> 00:03:11,369 So for the first Speigel, 77 00:03:11,370 --> 00:03:13,619 instead of ensuring that Europe's 78 00:03:13,620 --> 00:03:15,689 population can really benefit from 79 00:03:15,690 --> 00:03:18,149 real privacy protections, Europe's 80 00:03:18,150 --> 00:03:20,549 governments have been really 81 00:03:20,550 --> 00:03:23,039 trying very hard to delay the 82 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:24,899 data protection reform process in the 83 00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:27,059 last two years and to water down 84 00:03:27,060 --> 00:03:29,249 the protections for the citizens. 85 00:03:29,250 --> 00:03:31,529 And Germany was pretty much leading 86 00:03:31,530 --> 00:03:33,629 these efforts in the European Council. 87 00:03:35,610 --> 00:03:37,679 And in the meantime, European 88 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,989 parliamentarians were happily copy 89 00:03:39,990 --> 00:03:42,329 pasting from 90 00:03:42,330 --> 00:03:44,489 while texts suggested by the online 91 00:03:44,490 --> 00:03:46,619 industry into the 92 00:03:46,620 --> 00:03:48,630 data protection regulation. 93 00:03:51,140 --> 00:03:53,299 The second big fail is, well, 94 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:55,549 instead of proposing real solutions 95 00:03:55,550 --> 00:03:58,129 to the migration crisis, 96 00:03:58,130 --> 00:04:01,519 the EU pursues a very shortsighted 97 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,589 vision that focuses on border 98 00:04:03,590 --> 00:04:05,869 and travel surveillance, which 99 00:04:05,870 --> 00:04:08,029 is massively in breach of our privacy 100 00:04:08,030 --> 00:04:10,189 rights instead of, well, 101 00:04:10,190 --> 00:04:11,190 yeah, just 102 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,539 finding real solutions 103 00:04:14,540 --> 00:04:16,729 to how we can handle 104 00:04:16,730 --> 00:04:19,009 migration here with laws 105 00:04:19,010 --> 00:04:21,499 also that remain in force 106 00:04:21,500 --> 00:04:24,049 for years and years until finally a court 107 00:04:24,050 --> 00:04:26,299 may or may not declare them 108 00:04:26,300 --> 00:04:27,300 illegal. 109 00:04:29,700 --> 00:04:31,799 A third big fail is well, 110 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,079 instead of proposing 111 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,209 evidence based policies, the EU has 112 00:04:36,210 --> 00:04:38,759 been really moving more and more 113 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,489 to an approach where it is justifying 114 00:04:41,490 --> 00:04:44,069 proposals with made up evidence 115 00:04:44,070 --> 00:04:46,379 created by service 116 00:04:46,380 --> 00:04:49,469 surveys or even worse. 117 00:04:49,470 --> 00:04:52,229 It is completely getting rid of evidence 118 00:04:52,230 --> 00:04:54,599 or impact assessments like 119 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,309 you can see here for 120 00:04:57,420 --> 00:04:59,789 a new directive that has been proposed 121 00:04:59,790 --> 00:05:01,949 in order to fast track some 122 00:05:01,950 --> 00:05:03,750 EU anti-terrorism measures. 123 00:05:05,890 --> 00:05:07,570 And of course, the last one. 124 00:05:08,620 --> 00:05:10,719 Yeah, they have been released so many 125 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,029 sales in the EU that we almost forgot 126 00:05:13,030 --> 00:05:15,189 to put in the really most obvious 127 00:05:15,190 --> 00:05:16,190 one. 128 00:05:17,020 --> 00:05:18,069 So. 129 00:05:18,070 --> 00:05:20,259 Well, instead of putting experts 130 00:05:20,260 --> 00:05:22,359 in charge of the digital agenda, 131 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,419 we now have a rather mediocre 132 00:05:25,420 --> 00:05:27,969 regional politician who 133 00:05:27,970 --> 00:05:30,039 knows nothing about digital policy 134 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:31,040 making. 135 00:05:33,410 --> 00:05:35,779 So basically, if you start looking 136 00:05:35,780 --> 00:05:37,939 into the reasons for all 137 00:05:37,940 --> 00:05:40,819 these failures, you run into 138 00:05:40,820 --> 00:05:41,820 elements like 139 00:05:43,250 --> 00:05:44,959 the European Union has a rather poor 140 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:46,939 architecture. If you want to put it in 141 00:05:46,940 --> 00:05:48,410 software and terms, 142 00:05:49,670 --> 00:05:51,889 the legislative processes 143 00:05:51,890 --> 00:05:53,120 are also very buggy 144 00:05:54,260 --> 00:05:55,260 and. 145 00:05:56,010 --> 00:05:58,409 There's a complete or almost complete 146 00:05:58,410 --> 00:06:00,509 lack of institutional memory, 147 00:06:00,510 --> 00:06:02,909 and we will give some examples later 148 00:06:02,910 --> 00:06:03,910 for this. 149 00:06:04,830 --> 00:06:07,169 There are also a lot of poor, 150 00:06:07,170 --> 00:06:09,249 poorly functioning actors, especially 151 00:06:09,250 --> 00:06:11,549 the influence of lobbyists or special 152 00:06:11,550 --> 00:06:13,769 interests can be pretty 153 00:06:13,770 --> 00:06:14,939 bad. 154 00:06:14,940 --> 00:06:17,579 And then there is also this phenomenon 155 00:06:17,580 --> 00:06:18,989 which you could kind of translate into 156 00:06:18,990 --> 00:06:20,819 denial of service attacks. 157 00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:23,039 The same bad proposals come 158 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,199 back and back and back again until 159 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:26,189 they pass. 160 00:06:26,190 --> 00:06:28,859 And similarly to the 161 00:06:28,860 --> 00:06:31,079 policy based evidence creation, as also 162 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:32,310 happens in a similar fashion. 163 00:06:34,910 --> 00:06:37,009 Um, but, yeah, let me 164 00:06:37,010 --> 00:06:38,869 first expand a little on the on the 165 00:06:38,870 --> 00:06:39,870 architecture 166 00:06:41,300 --> 00:06:43,399 effectively, and I'm assuming everyone 167 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,919 knows the political concept, the idea of 168 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:47,779 separation of the executive, the 169 00:06:47,780 --> 00:06:49,789 legislative and the judiciary powers and 170 00:06:49,790 --> 00:06:51,739 which is supposed to be part of a normal 171 00:06:51,740 --> 00:06:53,299 functioning democracy. 172 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:55,099 And there's no such thing at the European 173 00:06:55,100 --> 00:06:56,419 level. 174 00:06:56,420 --> 00:06:58,699 Basically, um, this 175 00:06:58,700 --> 00:07:00,889 is supposed to be a legislative Jarmo. 176 00:07:00,890 --> 00:07:02,599 The European Parliament cannot initiate 177 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,519 legislation on its own. 178 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,139 And even though in all member states, the 179 00:07:06,140 --> 00:07:08,209 vast majority of national legislation is 180 00:07:08,210 --> 00:07:10,339 initiated by the executive, parliaments 181 00:07:10,340 --> 00:07:11,869 still do have to write in each state 182 00:07:11,870 --> 00:07:13,789 legislative initiative on their own. 183 00:07:13,790 --> 00:07:15,739 You can't do that at the European level. 184 00:07:15,740 --> 00:07:17,899 We have a very poor substitute 185 00:07:17,900 --> 00:07:19,879 for that, quote, normal legislative 186 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:20,839 reports. 187 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,539 But it's sort of nonsensical 188 00:07:23,540 --> 00:07:24,889 in a way. 189 00:07:24,890 --> 00:07:27,319 Um, then there's this problem of 190 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,449 having the executive 191 00:07:29,450 --> 00:07:31,549 twice in the in the legislative 192 00:07:31,550 --> 00:07:32,669 process. 193 00:07:32,670 --> 00:07:34,759 Um, first you have the commission, which 194 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,559 is supposedly the executive body of the 195 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:37,609 European Union. 196 00:07:37,610 --> 00:07:39,569 But then there's this something called 197 00:07:39,570 --> 00:07:41,299 the Council of Ministers, which I 198 00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:43,489 sometimes call the Council of Misery, 199 00:07:43,490 --> 00:07:45,679 which is made up out of the executives 200 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:46,680 of the member states. 201 00:07:48,060 --> 00:07:49,060 And 202 00:07:50,670 --> 00:07:52,379 basically, you have the executives of the 203 00:07:52,380 --> 00:07:54,329 member states of the European executive 204 00:07:54,330 --> 00:07:56,939 initiating legislation and having a 205 00:07:56,940 --> 00:07:58,859 very unbalanced influence on the 206 00:07:58,860 --> 00:07:59,930 legislative process. 207 00:08:01,310 --> 00:08:03,439 And both the members of the 208 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,509 European Commission and of the Council 209 00:08:05,510 --> 00:08:07,639 of Ministers cannot be sent 210 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,799 home by the European Parliament, 211 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,089 of course, members of the Council of 212 00:08:11,090 --> 00:08:12,469 Ministers can be sent home by the 213 00:08:12,470 --> 00:08:14,329 national parliaments, but not by the 214 00:08:14,330 --> 00:08:16,519 European electorate as 215 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:17,809 a whole. 216 00:08:17,810 --> 00:08:19,939 And on the judiciary side, which 217 00:08:19,940 --> 00:08:21,169 is probably the least problematic 218 00:08:21,170 --> 00:08:23,419 institution at the European level, that's 219 00:08:23,420 --> 00:08:24,949 actually fairly limited access to the 220 00:08:24,950 --> 00:08:26,149 European Court of Justice. 221 00:08:31,970 --> 00:08:34,158 For all its successes, I 222 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:36,288 don't think the European Union 223 00:08:36,289 --> 00:08:38,489 can become a genuinely 224 00:08:38,490 --> 00:08:39,590 genuine democracy 225 00:08:40,700 --> 00:08:42,829 if we either just 226 00:08:42,830 --> 00:08:44,449 involve the European Union back to the 227 00:08:44,450 --> 00:08:46,609 member states with parties like UKIP 228 00:08:46,610 --> 00:08:47,610 are promoting. 229 00:08:48,660 --> 00:08:50,879 Or we change the 230 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:52,589 locks. Now, the council minister into our 231 00:08:52,590 --> 00:08:54,359 council parliament, this will be my 232 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,189 personal preference. 233 00:08:56,190 --> 00:08:58,379 But as it is now, it's kind of stuck 234 00:08:58,380 --> 00:09:00,479 in between a bunch of 235 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,159 democratic nations working together to do 236 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,399 something or a 237 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,479 and or a generally 238 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,730 democratic Europe functioning properly. 239 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,559 And then there's also the failure 240 00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:17,869 of this in English speaking 241 00:09:17,870 --> 00:09:19,729 countries called the Fourth Estate as an 242 00:09:19,730 --> 00:09:21,859 addition to the Trius, um, 243 00:09:21,860 --> 00:09:24,379 the media can be considered an important 244 00:09:24,380 --> 00:09:27,019 element in balancing, uh, 245 00:09:27,020 --> 00:09:29,719 the the various powers in a democracy. 246 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,579 And basically, if you look at the 247 00:09:31,580 --> 00:09:33,139 national media coverage of the Brussels 248 00:09:33,140 --> 00:09:35,239 process quite 249 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:36,240 often. 250 00:09:36,830 --> 00:09:39,469 Legislative dossiers are only mentioned 251 00:09:39,470 --> 00:09:41,539 in national media after there 252 00:09:41,540 --> 00:09:43,729 has been an important vote, no prior to 253 00:09:43,730 --> 00:09:45,919 that. So the citizens of Europe and only 254 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,679 informed about major legislative 255 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:50,179 initiatives that have a major impact on 256 00:09:50,180 --> 00:09:52,969 their lives after the process 257 00:09:52,970 --> 00:09:54,110 has more or less finished. 258 00:09:55,490 --> 00:09:57,949 And if you realize that roughly 259 00:09:57,950 --> 00:09:59,749 80 percent of legislation at your 260 00:09:59,750 --> 00:10:01,849 national level is initiated from 261 00:10:01,850 --> 00:10:04,279 Brussels by the director for regulations, 262 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:05,779 and if you're talking about digital 263 00:10:05,780 --> 00:10:07,969 policymaking, it's over 90 percent 264 00:10:07,970 --> 00:10:10,189 of all legislation, more or less 265 00:10:10,190 --> 00:10:11,779 is decided in Brussels. 266 00:10:11,780 --> 00:10:14,089 This is a massive failure and. 267 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,899 It's mainly caused by. 268 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:19,939 The most national media outlets have 269 00:10:19,940 --> 00:10:21,679 little to no permanent presence in 270 00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:23,179 Brussels, and if there are any 271 00:10:23,180 --> 00:10:25,399 journalists in the room, please 272 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,139 ask your editors why that is the case, 273 00:10:27,140 --> 00:10:29,240 because they should feel ashamed of that. 274 00:10:31,990 --> 00:10:34,269 And this and, uh, 275 00:10:34,270 --> 00:10:36,549 another thing, um, that 276 00:10:36,550 --> 00:10:38,709 most everything in Brussels seems to be 277 00:10:38,710 --> 00:10:40,869 designed to bore you to death, and that 278 00:10:40,870 --> 00:10:43,059 is not helpful for the media side 279 00:10:43,060 --> 00:10:44,079 of things. 280 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,179 And personally, I believe that the 281 00:10:46,180 --> 00:10:48,519 fact that commissioners cannot 282 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,679 be sent home is part of the problem 283 00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:53,109 because then you have sufficient drama 284 00:10:53,110 --> 00:10:55,149 to get the media involved. 285 00:10:55,150 --> 00:10:57,339 But right now, well, there is 286 00:10:57,340 --> 00:10:59,469 a lot of drama in Brussels, but it's kind 287 00:10:59,470 --> 00:11:00,849 of a sideshow compared to what you can 288 00:11:00,850 --> 00:11:01,850 have at the national level. 289 00:11:05,300 --> 00:11:07,639 Yeah, right. So this basically brings 290 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,219 us to the first big failure of our 291 00:11:10,220 --> 00:11:12,649 community to come because 292 00:11:12,650 --> 00:11:15,259 we haven't been really able to 293 00:11:15,260 --> 00:11:17,419 run a proper analysis of the 294 00:11:17,420 --> 00:11:18,829 architecture. 295 00:11:18,830 --> 00:11:21,139 So despite the fact that, 296 00:11:21,140 --> 00:11:23,269 as we also said, 80 percent of our 297 00:11:23,270 --> 00:11:25,309 90 percent of tech laws are designed in 298 00:11:25,310 --> 00:11:27,619 Brussels, many of us still don't know 299 00:11:27,620 --> 00:11:30,769 how the EU institutions function. 300 00:11:30,770 --> 00:11:32,389 But we really need to have an 301 00:11:32,390 --> 00:11:34,669 understanding how everything works 302 00:11:34,670 --> 00:11:36,709 if we want to be able to effectively 303 00:11:36,710 --> 00:11:38,989 address their flaws 304 00:11:38,990 --> 00:11:40,939 and then repair them. 305 00:11:40,940 --> 00:11:43,279 So I don't want to go into detail 306 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,889 now and bore you to death even more 307 00:11:45,890 --> 00:11:48,079 of the processes 308 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:49,159 and everything. 309 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,379 But you can read all that 310 00:11:51,380 --> 00:11:53,869 in Adris booklet, 311 00:11:53,870 --> 00:11:56,029 how the EU Works, or while 312 00:11:56,030 --> 00:11:58,249 the title is, I think the activist 313 00:11:58,250 --> 00:12:00,289 guides through the Brussels maze, you can 314 00:12:00,290 --> 00:12:01,290 find it online. 315 00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:05,109 So once we do understand 316 00:12:05,110 --> 00:12:07,389 how everything works, we can actually 317 00:12:07,390 --> 00:12:09,579 we could start step by step 318 00:12:09,580 --> 00:12:10,580 to repair it. 319 00:12:11,620 --> 00:12:13,779 So since the 320 00:12:13,780 --> 00:12:15,999 Lisbon Treaty, the European Parliament 321 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:17,289 has gained more power. 322 00:12:17,290 --> 00:12:19,479 For example, it can say yes or no to 323 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:20,710 international agreements, 324 00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:24,009 which is one of the reasons why we 325 00:12:24,010 --> 00:12:25,839 won against ACTA. 326 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,149 But as Walter said, the European 327 00:12:28,150 --> 00:12:30,219 Parliament still is not able 328 00:12:30,220 --> 00:12:32,829 to propose legislation itself. 329 00:12:32,830 --> 00:12:34,959 It can only modify texts 330 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:36,519 that were written by the European 331 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,289 Commission or ask the commission to 332 00:12:38,290 --> 00:12:39,979 propose law. 333 00:12:39,980 --> 00:12:42,169 So maybe what we need is 334 00:12:42,170 --> 00:12:44,569 a constitutional crisis or 335 00:12:44,570 --> 00:12:46,039 maybe a revolt by the European 336 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,109 Parliament, so why 337 00:12:48,110 --> 00:12:50,179 can it not just grab the 338 00:12:50,180 --> 00:12:51,769 legislative initiative? 339 00:12:51,770 --> 00:12:53,989 I can not just say, fuck it, we're just 340 00:12:53,990 --> 00:12:55,460 going to propose a law now. 341 00:12:57,370 --> 00:12:59,589 So but I think giving power to 342 00:12:59,590 --> 00:13:02,559 the parliament is also up to us. 343 00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:04,659 And so far, we have been failing to 344 00:13:04,660 --> 00:13:07,029 support the European Parliament as 345 00:13:07,030 --> 00:13:09,339 the only institution that represents 346 00:13:09,340 --> 00:13:10,889 us directly. 347 00:13:10,890 --> 00:13:13,379 If you take, for example, the 348 00:13:13,380 --> 00:13:16,139 2014 elections, 349 00:13:16,140 --> 00:13:18,449 it was really the worst turnout 350 00:13:18,450 --> 00:13:20,999 in the entire European history. 351 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,549 So I think last year we had 352 00:13:23,550 --> 00:13:25,979 a participation rate of forty two 353 00:13:25,980 --> 00:13:28,319 point six percent. 354 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,359 Whereas in nineteen ninety four, it was 355 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,489 fifty six point six and in 356 00:13:32,490 --> 00:13:34,889 the Netherlands last year, 357 00:13:34,890 --> 00:13:37,109 only 30 percent or 37 358 00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:38,639 percent of people went to vote. 359 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,009 So, yeah, the 360 00:13:45,010 --> 00:13:47,829 second reason for the failure of the EU 361 00:13:47,830 --> 00:13:49,839 are also the legislative processes, 362 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,239 because many things are still 363 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,220 decided behind closed doors. 364 00:13:55,750 --> 00:13:57,789 To give you just two examples of this. 365 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,179 The first thing is the 366 00:14:01,180 --> 00:14:02,739 first point is the thing called 367 00:14:02,740 --> 00:14:05,739 trialogues and the second 368 00:14:05,740 --> 00:14:07,569 the way in which trade agreements are 369 00:14:07,570 --> 00:14:09,209 negotiated. 370 00:14:09,210 --> 00:14:11,279 So trialogues are 371 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,439 something that's not defined 372 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,209 in the European treaties, but it's 373 00:14:15,210 --> 00:14:17,459 actually nowadays the way in 374 00:14:17,460 --> 00:14:19,289 order to finalize laws in the EU. 375 00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:23,029 So the normal legislative 376 00:14:23,030 --> 00:14:24,799 process of the U.S., the commission 377 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,419 tables the proposal, the council, and if 378 00:14:26,420 --> 00:14:28,189 you work on the text and then pass them 379 00:14:28,190 --> 00:14:30,169 in the first reading, if none of the 380 00:14:30,170 --> 00:14:31,879 institutions adopts the text of the 381 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,889 other, it goes to second reading and then 382 00:14:33,890 --> 00:14:36,559 ultimately to conciliation, 383 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:37,759 if not adopted before. 384 00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:42,889 What actually happens 385 00:14:42,890 --> 00:14:45,529 are so-called trialogues, 386 00:14:45,530 --> 00:14:47,239 and this sounds like a great and fun 387 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,429 thing to participate in, but actually 388 00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:51,589 in reality it's a 389 00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:52,639 lot less crunchy. 390 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,779 So any time after the publication 391 00:14:55,780 --> 00:14:57,939 of the commission proposal, the 392 00:14:57,940 --> 00:15:00,999 institutions can meet behind closed doors 393 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,399 in order to try to negotiate an agreement 394 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:04,509 on the text. 395 00:15:04,510 --> 00:15:07,479 So this is completely and transparent. 396 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,339 There are no meeting minutes and there 397 00:15:09,340 --> 00:15:11,769 are no clear rules for this so-called 398 00:15:11,770 --> 00:15:12,770 trialogue meeting. 399 00:15:15,010 --> 00:15:17,199 And it's well, it's completely 400 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,299 undemocratic because new text is 401 00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:21,429 negotiated without anybody 402 00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:22,430 voting on this. 403 00:15:26,260 --> 00:15:27,639 And then there's the issue of the 404 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,219 international agreements, which 405 00:15:30,220 --> 00:15:31,869 aren't especially for the digital sphere. 406 00:15:31,870 --> 00:15:34,449 A lot of relevant policymaking actually 407 00:15:34,450 --> 00:15:36,589 happens, and 408 00:15:36,590 --> 00:15:38,109 the roles of the European Commission is 409 00:15:38,110 --> 00:15:40,479 to represent Europe towards, uh, 410 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,879 non European counterparts 411 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:44,259 when it comes to trade agreements, for 412 00:15:44,260 --> 00:15:46,569 example, to it's an ongoing 413 00:15:46,570 --> 00:15:47,649 process. 414 00:15:47,650 --> 00:15:49,419 But other examples are the swift 415 00:15:49,420 --> 00:15:51,159 agreement with the United States, which 416 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,229 basically has a lot to say 417 00:15:53,230 --> 00:15:55,389 about it, enshrined in law 418 00:15:55,390 --> 00:15:57,639 the fact that most interbank 419 00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,769 transfers in Europe are basically 420 00:15:59,770 --> 00:16:01,749 the information is willingly shared with 421 00:16:01,750 --> 00:16:03,879 the US and the end of the swift 422 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:05,559 agreements for the purpose of 423 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:06,560 antiterrorism 424 00:16:08,050 --> 00:16:10,239 or counter-terrorism 425 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:11,240 operations. 426 00:16:12,220 --> 00:16:14,169 And the problem starts already. 427 00:16:14,170 --> 00:16:16,119 It's a process that's quite often, 428 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,039 especially in the so-called trade 429 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,319 agreements, the negotiation 430 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:21,849 mandate of the commission itself is 431 00:16:21,850 --> 00:16:23,110 secret to begin this. 432 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,309 A tip had been negotiated for about 433 00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:27,959 two and half years already before the 434 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:29,759 mandate given to the commission was made 435 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:30,760 public. 436 00:16:31,340 --> 00:16:33,350 And if you do realize. 437 00:16:34,570 --> 00:16:35,959 And that's one of the other problems with 438 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,929 the European Union, if you couch 439 00:16:37,930 --> 00:16:40,089 everything in terms of its just the 440 00:16:40,090 --> 00:16:41,739 economic things and therefore not 441 00:16:41,740 --> 00:16:44,859 relevant for policy, ultimately 442 00:16:44,860 --> 00:16:47,409 economic convergence, 443 00:16:47,410 --> 00:16:49,619 both within the union and across, 444 00:16:49,620 --> 00:16:51,219 for example, the Atlantic results and 445 00:16:51,220 --> 00:16:53,559 changes in legislation, and it does 446 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,959 touch upon fundamental rights. 447 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,299 At some point you could especially see 448 00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:00,549 with ActiveX, thankfully we managed 449 00:17:00,550 --> 00:17:03,039 to shoot down, but ACTTAB 450 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,019 would have impacted our freedom of speech 451 00:17:05,020 --> 00:17:07,749 greatly and. 452 00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:09,818 Likewise, with 453 00:17:09,819 --> 00:17:12,009 treaties like to see TAA and 454 00:17:12,010 --> 00:17:14,078 TTIP, there are topics on the 455 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:15,789 negotiation table that are not just 456 00:17:15,790 --> 00:17:17,689 economic anymore, it is about privacy. 457 00:17:17,690 --> 00:17:19,779 It's about freedom of speech 458 00:17:21,099 --> 00:17:22,099 and. 459 00:17:22,780 --> 00:17:25,239 And and also, this is less 460 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,249 of our primary interest in matters of 461 00:17:27,250 --> 00:17:30,369 labor interest and the environment, 462 00:17:30,370 --> 00:17:32,469 and by kind of putting it away in 463 00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:35,379 this notion of trade agreements, 464 00:17:35,380 --> 00:17:37,599 I think the European institutions 465 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,790 are doing democracy a disservice. 466 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,409 Especially when you realize that 467 00:17:44,410 --> 00:17:47,199 business interests quite often do have 468 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,269 access to these documents, while civil 469 00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:50,270 society does not. 470 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:54,640 And. 471 00:17:56,540 --> 00:17:58,639 So far, I think a lot of the 472 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,859 failures of activism is 473 00:18:00,860 --> 00:18:03,049 to push hard on transparency 474 00:18:03,050 --> 00:18:04,849 in these issues. 475 00:18:04,850 --> 00:18:05,850 Um. 476 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,129 The few times we succeeded, actually 477 00:18:09,130 --> 00:18:11,229 was quite often because we were abusing 478 00:18:11,230 --> 00:18:12,700 loopholes or. 479 00:18:14,260 --> 00:18:16,109 Say, abusing using them properly, 480 00:18:16,110 --> 00:18:18,029 actually using differences in 481 00:18:18,030 --> 00:18:19,949 transparency legislation, for example, 482 00:18:19,950 --> 00:18:22,349 both sides of the Atlantic, and 483 00:18:22,350 --> 00:18:23,909 it has been proven in the past, quite 484 00:18:23,910 --> 00:18:26,009 useful to send Freedom of Information 485 00:18:26,010 --> 00:18:28,259 Act request on the other side, used 486 00:18:28,260 --> 00:18:30,449 the results from that to 487 00:18:30,450 --> 00:18:32,639 do similar request to you 488 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,229 to the European Commission. 489 00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:36,359 And any mismatch can turn out 490 00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:37,380 to be rather interesting. 491 00:18:39,110 --> 00:18:40,849 But this is also one of the things that 492 00:18:40,850 --> 00:18:42,739 normal citizen can quite easily 493 00:18:42,740 --> 00:18:44,480 participate in just sent. 494 00:18:45,820 --> 00:18:47,649 Request to the commission or to a 495 00:18:47,650 --> 00:18:49,770 national member states for information. 496 00:18:52,140 --> 00:18:54,349 And, um, 497 00:18:54,350 --> 00:18:56,369 and it becomes more powerful as soon as 498 00:18:56,370 --> 00:18:58,529 you start sharing the results of that. 499 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,049 Yes, so basically the 500 00:19:03,050 --> 00:19:04,579 slide is just to show that you could 501 00:19:04,580 --> 00:19:06,769 really do three little things in 502 00:19:06,770 --> 00:19:09,589 order to try to improve transparency 503 00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:11,749 at the EU level. First thing is to make 504 00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:13,069 access to documents request. 505 00:19:13,070 --> 00:19:14,839 There's a platform called Ask the E.U. 506 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,169 dot org, which is really easy to use. 507 00:19:18,170 --> 00:19:20,419 So you could ask for, for 508 00:19:20,420 --> 00:19:22,849 example, communications between industry 509 00:19:22,850 --> 00:19:24,919 and the commission on 510 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,989 any topic that's interesting for you 511 00:19:26,990 --> 00:19:29,269 or ask for 512 00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:31,969 trialogue documents or whatever. 513 00:19:31,970 --> 00:19:35,359 Or you could complain to the ombudswoman 514 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:37,160 whose job it is to 515 00:19:38,180 --> 00:19:40,699 investigate maladministration in the EU 516 00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:42,909 and violations of rights. 517 00:19:42,910 --> 00:19:45,369 Or you could build or 518 00:19:45,370 --> 00:19:47,439 contribute or just use the 519 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,899 awesome tools that are out there, 520 00:19:49,900 --> 00:19:53,349 for example, like Patrick Poltrack 521 00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:55,599 has been built in order to scrape 522 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:56,979 data from the European Parliament's 523 00:19:56,980 --> 00:19:58,659 website. And it gives a super nice 524 00:19:58,660 --> 00:20:00,819 overview of all of the dossiers. 525 00:20:00,820 --> 00:20:03,579 You can have alerts on your dossiers 526 00:20:03,580 --> 00:20:05,859 and even link to directly 527 00:20:05,860 --> 00:20:07,680 to amendments and that sort of stuff. 528 00:20:13,180 --> 00:20:15,639 And there's also the issue 529 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,739 that, um, by 530 00:20:17,740 --> 00:20:19,839 the nature of politics, politicians 531 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,579 tend to forget things they've said in the 532 00:20:21,580 --> 00:20:22,580 past. 533 00:20:23,060 --> 00:20:25,519 And especially in the digital 534 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,339 age, it's. 535 00:20:28,340 --> 00:20:30,259 Actually, quite easy to remind them of 536 00:20:30,260 --> 00:20:32,109 what they said in the past. 537 00:20:32,110 --> 00:20:34,339 This has never been as 538 00:20:34,340 --> 00:20:35,449 much recorded. 539 00:20:35,450 --> 00:20:37,609 What politicians say and do 540 00:20:37,610 --> 00:20:39,769 and a very useful tool in 541 00:20:39,770 --> 00:20:42,209 this regard in the past has been 542 00:20:42,210 --> 00:20:44,809 a poor political memory, which basically 543 00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:46,939 was keeping track which 544 00:20:46,940 --> 00:20:49,309 MEPs have been voting, which based on 545 00:20:49,310 --> 00:20:51,919 this policy dossiers, and 546 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,709 actually gave a ranking to 547 00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:56,359 the parties in the European Parliament 548 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:58,789 and the MEPs on how 549 00:20:58,790 --> 00:21:00,799 to what extent they had been voting for 550 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,179 the for the citizens interest. 551 00:21:03,180 --> 00:21:05,489 And politicians that know that 552 00:21:05,490 --> 00:21:07,049 they will be reminded of their past 553 00:21:07,050 --> 00:21:09,029 actions. They'll think their current 554 00:21:09,030 --> 00:21:11,039 actions through much more than they 555 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,259 otherwise would because it 556 00:21:13,260 --> 00:21:15,289 will affect their chance to be reelected. 557 00:21:26,780 --> 00:21:28,939 And then you get to the denial 558 00:21:28,940 --> 00:21:31,069 of service attacks on our 559 00:21:31,070 --> 00:21:33,259 freedoms, and I'm an 560 00:21:33,260 --> 00:21:35,369 example to the production 561 00:21:35,370 --> 00:21:38,029 of passenger name records, 562 00:21:38,030 --> 00:21:40,339 and this was already proposed 563 00:21:40,340 --> 00:21:42,919 by the United Kingdom in 2005 564 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,199 to have databases of, 565 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,309 especially for air travel that mean 566 00:21:48,310 --> 00:21:50,059 that the member states would share with 567 00:21:50,060 --> 00:21:52,909 each other who was traveling where 568 00:21:52,910 --> 00:21:55,189 we was paying for the tickets, what their 569 00:21:55,190 --> 00:21:56,969 meal preferences would be. 570 00:21:56,970 --> 00:21:58,939 Likewise, the US has been pushing for 571 00:21:58,940 --> 00:22:01,609 having that information exchange. 572 00:22:01,610 --> 00:22:03,859 The U.K. proposal was ultimately 573 00:22:03,860 --> 00:22:05,329 shot down in parliament. 574 00:22:05,330 --> 00:22:06,799 We still don't really know how that 575 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,869 happened because there was little 576 00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:11,179 activism on it simply because 577 00:22:11,180 --> 00:22:13,940 civil society is kind of overburdened 578 00:22:15,260 --> 00:22:16,939 back then already and even more so 579 00:22:16,940 --> 00:22:18,259 nowadays. 580 00:22:18,260 --> 00:22:20,869 But Parliament did its job and 581 00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:23,119 voted against it, saying this is too much 582 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:25,129 of an infringement upon fundamental 583 00:22:25,130 --> 00:22:27,700 rights in a democratic society. 584 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:32,489 That initiative was first 585 00:22:32,490 --> 00:22:34,349 proposed in 2005 after the London and 586 00:22:34,350 --> 00:22:35,549 Madrid bombings. 587 00:22:35,550 --> 00:22:37,799 Now we've had Paris same 588 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,499 similar proposals push forward 589 00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:41,639 and surprise. 590 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:42,640 And then through now. 591 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,199 And the proposal was actually worse 592 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,959 than the previous one, as far as I know, 593 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,999 but everyone has forgotten the very good 594 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,829 reasons why the previous proposal didn't 595 00:22:52,830 --> 00:22:54,989 get didn't make it, you know, 596 00:22:54,990 --> 00:22:56,970 kind of short of memory in this respect. 597 00:23:01,030 --> 00:23:03,309 Yes, so ideally, we really 598 00:23:03,310 --> 00:23:05,769 need to be the political 599 00:23:05,770 --> 00:23:08,109 memory of our parliamentarians, 600 00:23:08,110 --> 00:23:09,789 we need to be there all the time to 601 00:23:09,790 --> 00:23:11,979 remind them of the duties 602 00:23:11,980 --> 00:23:14,109 and responsibilities as 603 00:23:14,110 --> 00:23:16,539 the elected representatives 604 00:23:16,540 --> 00:23:18,039 of the European people. 605 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,269 So this year, we lost the European 606 00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:22,449 our file, and we now have 607 00:23:22,450 --> 00:23:24,879 the massive and targeted surveillance 608 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,039 of of all our 609 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,229 passengers coming out and 610 00:23:29,230 --> 00:23:31,299 flying out of the EU and inside 611 00:23:31,300 --> 00:23:32,300 of the EU. 612 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:34,569 So, yeah, so 613 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,199 I think this was due to the fact that 614 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,449 there was simply not enough pressure from 615 00:23:40,450 --> 00:23:41,799 civil society. 616 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,079 So we have just not been able to 617 00:23:45,220 --> 00:23:47,499 constantly remind the AP that is 618 00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:49,869 it is really there to represent us. 619 00:23:51,270 --> 00:23:53,339 But being there all the time is 620 00:23:53,340 --> 00:23:55,529 also a really huge challenge 621 00:23:55,530 --> 00:23:58,559 for digital activism at the EU level 622 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,749 because, well, firstly, people 623 00:24:00,750 --> 00:24:03,359 who care about what's going on in the EU 624 00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:05,729 simply don't have the time 625 00:24:05,730 --> 00:24:07,799 or the luxury to be engaged 626 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,169 over a long period of time 627 00:24:10,170 --> 00:24:12,089 or to find ways to transmit their 628 00:24:12,090 --> 00:24:14,369 knowledge of Europe's history 629 00:24:14,370 --> 00:24:15,999 and policy making. 630 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,509 Or secondly, while secondly, 631 00:24:18,510 --> 00:24:20,429 our digital rights activists are still 632 00:24:20,430 --> 00:24:22,619 too few to point out 633 00:24:22,620 --> 00:24:24,839 every single time to policymakers 634 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,759 when they're about to adopt a really 635 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:27,769 crazy proposal. 636 00:24:29,250 --> 00:24:31,379 I think an entire 637 00:24:31,380 --> 00:24:33,629 Europe that's not even 50 638 00:24:33,630 --> 00:24:35,699 people active on these sort of 639 00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:38,069 questions from civil 640 00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:40,619 rights organizations to defend 641 00:24:40,620 --> 00:24:41,999 your rights and freedoms. 642 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,489 And this is just simply a scandal. 643 00:24:46,250 --> 00:24:48,679 So, yeah, as Walter said, 644 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,809 even if we're not in Brussels 645 00:24:50,810 --> 00:24:52,729 physically all the time, we would 646 00:24:52,730 --> 00:24:54,889 theoretically have the means to engage 647 00:24:54,890 --> 00:24:56,509 in a decentralized manner and 648 00:24:56,510 --> 00:24:57,510 policymaking. 649 00:24:58,490 --> 00:25:00,679 In the past years, we had minimal pool 650 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,049 and unfortunately, due to 651 00:25:03,050 --> 00:25:05,119 lack of human resources, I think 652 00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:07,249 mostly the tool has not been 653 00:25:07,250 --> 00:25:10,549 updated after the 2014 elections. 654 00:25:10,550 --> 00:25:12,619 And so if I think 655 00:25:12,620 --> 00:25:14,779 somebody is just now starting to 656 00:25:14,780 --> 00:25:16,669 work on this again and if you want to 657 00:25:16,670 --> 00:25:19,159 help out with this, go to the 658 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,319 end of the quarter to the net and 659 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:22,970 ask how you can help out. 660 00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:28,569 Yes, and we have to they their 661 00:25:28,570 --> 00:25:29,570 devices. 662 00:25:31,870 --> 00:25:34,419 I would say, um, 663 00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:36,759 in a way, especially the civil service 664 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,889 and the European Commission do not 665 00:25:38,890 --> 00:25:41,019 have the problems of shortage of memory. 666 00:25:41,020 --> 00:25:42,819 They do have the problem that actually 667 00:25:42,820 --> 00:25:44,859 had a few. Relatively speaking, the 668 00:25:44,860 --> 00:25:47,229 European Commission is a fairly small 669 00:25:47,230 --> 00:25:49,299 executive body compared to, let's say, 670 00:25:49,300 --> 00:25:51,399 the central governments of the 671 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:52,139 member states. 672 00:25:52,140 --> 00:25:54,219 To give an idea, there are about twenty 673 00:25:54,220 --> 00:25:57,039 four thousand civil servants 674 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,929 working within the European Commission. 675 00:25:58,930 --> 00:26:01,149 And if you compare that to, let's say, 676 00:26:01,150 --> 00:26:03,399 the federal government of Germany, that's 677 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,189 less than a tenth of the civil servants. 678 00:26:06,190 --> 00:26:08,079 And they tend to compensate for that by 679 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,239 relying heavily on 680 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,309 expert experts from the fields, 681 00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:13,990 a.k.a. lobbying firms. 682 00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:17,589 And, uh, and lobbyists 683 00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:20,019 by themselves are not being paid 684 00:26:20,020 --> 00:26:21,879 to represent the general interest being 685 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,739 paid to represent a special interest. 686 00:26:23,740 --> 00:26:25,749 They're just just doing their job. 687 00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:27,849 But their job is a bit of a nasty one 688 00:26:27,850 --> 00:26:30,099 in the sense that they are 689 00:26:30,100 --> 00:26:32,559 it's the main purpose to 690 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,539 make sure that any legislation that comes 691 00:26:34,540 --> 00:26:36,789 through or is initiated is beneficial 692 00:26:36,790 --> 00:26:38,079 to the people who are paying the. 693 00:26:40,490 --> 00:26:42,079 To give you an idea, just a little 694 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,149 anecdote, three years 695 00:26:44,150 --> 00:26:47,179 ago, we sat down with an MP 696 00:26:47,180 --> 00:26:49,249 from, uh, from Ireland 697 00:26:49,250 --> 00:26:50,809 about the general data protection 698 00:26:50,810 --> 00:26:52,879 regulation, which is now finally in its 699 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,889 finishing stages. 700 00:26:54,890 --> 00:26:57,049 That Irish MEP told us 701 00:26:57,050 --> 00:26:59,479 you guys are the first people 702 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,279 from civil society I've been meeting on 703 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,199 this dossier. I have met between 40 and 704 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,479 50 different industry lobby 705 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,789 groups on this topic, 706 00:27:07,790 --> 00:27:09,409 but none of them claiming to represent 707 00:27:09,410 --> 00:27:10,879 the citizens. 708 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,189 And that gives you an idea 709 00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:15,319 to what extent the within the 710 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,539 Brussels bubble, it's kind of a cacophony 711 00:27:17,540 --> 00:27:19,609 of voices from industry interests and 712 00:27:19,610 --> 00:27:21,849 much less of citizens' interests. 713 00:27:23,510 --> 00:27:25,709 And because industry lobbyists 714 00:27:25,710 --> 00:27:27,989 are mostly just doing their jobs, 715 00:27:27,990 --> 00:27:30,209 this also often than it is very 716 00:27:30,210 --> 00:27:32,759 ridiculous lobbying 717 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:33,809 attempts. 718 00:27:33,810 --> 00:27:36,149 So we have a couple of examples. 719 00:27:36,150 --> 00:27:38,639 One example, for example, was last 720 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,249 two years ago, there was last year the 721 00:27:40,250 --> 00:27:42,449 American, um, the 722 00:27:42,450 --> 00:27:43,689 corporate consultation. 723 00:27:43,690 --> 00:27:45,419 Last Christmas, the European Commission 724 00:27:45,420 --> 00:27:47,519 asked, um, 725 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:48,989 should it be considered a copyright 726 00:27:48,990 --> 00:27:50,729 infringement if someone were to have a 727 00:27:50,730 --> 00:27:53,009 hyperlink towards infringing content 728 00:27:53,010 --> 00:27:54,609 on the Internet? 729 00:27:54,610 --> 00:27:57,039 And Bertelsmann, Ainsworth's before 730 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,859 long, experts say it was obvious 731 00:27:59,860 --> 00:28:02,139 that a hyperlink to 732 00:28:02,140 --> 00:28:04,329 content on a different website 733 00:28:04,330 --> 00:28:06,519 that happens to be infringing should 734 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,159 be considered infringing itself. 735 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,319 And you can be sure that of 736 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,539 all these thousands of answers to that 737 00:28:13,540 --> 00:28:15,849 particular consultation, which thankfully 738 00:28:15,850 --> 00:28:17,349 answers a lot of times by normal 739 00:28:17,350 --> 00:28:20,079 citizens, but the older ones, by the 740 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,999 the publishers would kind of echoed that 741 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,000 sentiment. 742 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,889 I think you have other good examples 743 00:28:25,890 --> 00:28:27,429 of ridiculous lobbying. 744 00:28:27,430 --> 00:28:29,609 Yeah, well, we have a shot video to 745 00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:31,119 show you. 746 00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:33,219 Um, made 747 00:28:33,220 --> 00:28:35,499 by the advertising industry 748 00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:37,929 on the data protection regulation 749 00:28:37,930 --> 00:28:40,119 and that really you have to see this 750 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,100 because it was just so hilarious. 751 00:28:43,630 --> 00:28:46,179 Yeah, because, yeah, Evilenko 752 00:28:46,180 --> 00:28:48,009 has kidnaped thousands of slaves and 753 00:28:48,010 --> 00:28:49,839 strip them of their identities so they 754 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,220 can be found and saved. 755 00:28:54,030 --> 00:28:55,489 And I didn't look at all those poor 756 00:28:55,490 --> 00:28:57,289 slaves. We must do something to help 757 00:28:57,290 --> 00:28:58,189 them. 758 00:28:58,190 --> 00:28:59,269 Let's ask the genie. 759 00:28:59,270 --> 00:29:00,499 Yes, let's go. 760 00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:07,359 Jeannie, we need your help. 761 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:08,739 We have to get the slaves, their 762 00:29:08,740 --> 00:29:10,809 identities back and break even let go 763 00:29:10,810 --> 00:29:12,969 to justice. If we find out as much as we 764 00:29:12,970 --> 00:29:15,009 can about him, we can predict his next 765 00:29:15,010 --> 00:29:16,809 moves and put a stop to this. 766 00:29:17,890 --> 00:29:20,559 So do you realize anonymity 767 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,289 is slavery? 768 00:29:22,290 --> 00:29:24,179 War is peace. 769 00:29:24,180 --> 00:29:26,489 Well, that's a good idea, 770 00:29:26,490 --> 00:29:28,559 but the point of collapsing this is 771 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:29,669 profiling. 772 00:29:29,670 --> 00:29:31,709 We have to get explicit consent from 773 00:29:31,710 --> 00:29:33,239 everyone which what 774 00:29:34,290 --> 00:29:36,569 what the law is a makes 775 00:29:36,570 --> 00:29:37,529 no sense. 776 00:29:37,530 --> 00:29:39,569 This is for the victims and the greater 777 00:29:39,570 --> 00:29:40,570 good. 778 00:29:41,340 --> 00:29:43,500 Wait, it doesn't have to be this way. 779 00:29:45,030 --> 00:29:46,949 If we find out as much as we can about 780 00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:49,229 him, we can predict his next moves and 781 00:29:49,230 --> 00:29:51,199 put a stop to this. 782 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,579 No problem. 783 00:29:52,580 --> 00:29:54,829 Give me one second, I can gather 784 00:29:54,830 --> 00:29:56,419 the relevant information I'm already 785 00:29:56,420 --> 00:29:57,859 have. So this should be. 786 00:30:07,290 --> 00:30:08,179 Thanks, Jeanne. 787 00:30:08,180 --> 00:30:09,389 You've really helped us. 788 00:30:09,390 --> 00:30:10,459 We'll take it from here. 789 00:30:21,790 --> 00:30:23,799 And do realize that this particular 790 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,319 lobbying firm has emissions about 791 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,329 five or six of these rather expensive 792 00:30:28,330 --> 00:30:30,549 animations to show to MEPs 793 00:30:30,550 --> 00:30:32,769 and how beneficial data mining will be to 794 00:30:32,770 --> 00:30:33,829 the general population. 795 00:30:35,350 --> 00:30:37,029 What could possibly go wrong? 796 00:30:37,030 --> 00:30:39,369 Other examples are that in the process 797 00:30:39,370 --> 00:30:41,769 of the negotiations, industry was pushing 798 00:30:41,770 --> 00:30:43,989 very hard and got 799 00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:46,119 their way in the actual documents, 800 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,339 um, to set damages 801 00:30:48,340 --> 00:30:51,219 for copyright infringement based on the 802 00:30:51,220 --> 00:30:53,409 actual number of copies 803 00:30:53,410 --> 00:30:55,509 multiplied by the retail value of 804 00:30:55,510 --> 00:30:57,079 the copies. 805 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,329 Which is what basically 806 00:30:59,330 --> 00:31:01,339 mean, I would assume that any copy made 807 00:31:01,340 --> 00:31:03,279 was basically a lost sale to them. 808 00:31:05,540 --> 00:31:07,969 Yeah, and another example from 809 00:31:07,970 --> 00:31:10,369 last year, only just before the European 810 00:31:10,370 --> 00:31:12,529 Parliament voted for the first 811 00:31:12,530 --> 00:31:14,869 time for really strong net neutrality 812 00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:17,269 protections, there was a last minute 813 00:31:17,270 --> 00:31:19,339 effort by the child 814 00:31:19,340 --> 00:31:21,469 protection lobbyists in order to kill 815 00:31:21,470 --> 00:31:23,059 net neutrality amendments. 816 00:31:23,060 --> 00:31:25,219 You have to yeah, it's really 817 00:31:25,220 --> 00:31:26,419 crazy logic. 818 00:31:26,420 --> 00:31:29,119 But one UK MEP 819 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,579 argued in an email to her colleagues 820 00:31:31,580 --> 00:31:33,859 that net neutrality would actually lead 821 00:31:33,860 --> 00:31:34,909 to child abuse. 822 00:31:34,910 --> 00:31:36,889 And oh, my God, if Edri is like what 823 00:31:36,890 --> 00:31:39,259 actually nets and access amendments 824 00:31:39,260 --> 00:31:41,359 went through, then all the children would 825 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,129 be lost, basically. 826 00:31:43,130 --> 00:31:45,409 So this attempt was really so ridiculous 827 00:31:45,410 --> 00:31:47,839 that it failed epically. 828 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,239 And the net neutrality amendments 829 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,240 went through. 830 00:31:52,250 --> 00:31:53,250 Yeah. 831 00:31:56,180 --> 00:31:58,009 Discuss this, you can skip this one. 832 00:31:58,010 --> 00:32:00,349 Yeah, so Walter already mentioned 833 00:32:00,350 --> 00:32:02,539 the last one, those attacks, those 834 00:32:02,540 --> 00:32:04,849 same proposals are being 835 00:32:04,850 --> 00:32:06,650 just tabled over and over again. 836 00:32:07,790 --> 00:32:10,219 Another example for these DOS attacks, 837 00:32:10,220 --> 00:32:12,349 the U.S. fights while measures 838 00:32:12,350 --> 00:32:14,749 to fight terrorism, because 839 00:32:14,750 --> 00:32:17,239 every once in a while, the European 840 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,579 Commission launches talks with 841 00:32:19,580 --> 00:32:22,579 industry in order to encourage companies 842 00:32:22,580 --> 00:32:24,949 to just take voluntary actions 843 00:32:24,950 --> 00:32:27,559 in order to find responses 844 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,989 to all sorts of illegal or possibly 845 00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:33,379 just unwanted online activity. 846 00:32:33,380 --> 00:32:36,109 So in 2012, 847 00:32:36,110 --> 00:32:37,909 I don't know if some of you remember 848 00:32:37,910 --> 00:32:39,769 there was a project that was called Clean 849 00:32:39,770 --> 00:32:41,959 It that was 850 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,149 financed by the European Commission 851 00:32:44,150 --> 00:32:46,459 and it aimed at reducing the terrorist 852 00:32:46,460 --> 00:32:48,349 use of the Internet. 853 00:32:48,350 --> 00:32:50,569 They never said what the terrorists 854 00:32:50,570 --> 00:32:51,570 use might be, 855 00:32:52,670 --> 00:32:54,949 but the project produced basically 856 00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:57,199 a very long list, a 857 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,539 wish list for law enforcement. 858 00:32:59,540 --> 00:33:01,639 So among the really bad proposals 859 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,799 was that Internet companies must 860 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,929 allow only real common names. 861 00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:09,379 Governments must disseminate 862 00:33:09,380 --> 00:33:11,630 lists of illegal terrorist websites. 863 00:33:12,690 --> 00:33:14,759 And social media companies must 864 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,919 allow on the real pictures 865 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:17,920 of users. 866 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,969 So this project was then a really 867 00:33:20,970 --> 00:33:23,069 big failure because it was substandard 868 00:33:23,070 --> 00:33:25,319 quality and just produce no 869 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:26,810 meaningful outcome at all. 870 00:33:27,860 --> 00:33:30,199 And yeah, I think the project's website 871 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,509 today cleaned it out. 872 00:33:31,510 --> 00:33:33,799 You even links to some some porn 873 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,059 at the very bottom, I don't know. 874 00:33:35,060 --> 00:33:37,249 You can check it out if you want. 875 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,879 But anyway, so this year the commission 876 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,579 took this approach and 877 00:33:43,580 --> 00:33:45,229 just rebranded it. 878 00:33:45,230 --> 00:33:47,089 And so what they are doing now is 879 00:33:47,090 --> 00:33:49,279 launching an EU Internet 880 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,499 forum in order to 881 00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:53,719 talk with online industry 882 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:54,769 in order to. 883 00:33:54,770 --> 00:33:56,869 Yeah. To tackle terrorism and 884 00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:59,509 prevent radicalization. 885 00:33:59,510 --> 00:34:01,219 So in the past months, we've been really 886 00:34:01,220 --> 00:34:02,779 battling with the commission to get some 887 00:34:02,780 --> 00:34:04,729 documents because, of course, everything 888 00:34:04,730 --> 00:34:06,979 is being discussed behind closed doors 889 00:34:06,980 --> 00:34:07,980 with industry. 890 00:34:08,810 --> 00:34:10,908 But all we received were 891 00:34:10,909 --> 00:34:13,409 heavily redacted documents. 892 00:34:14,510 --> 00:34:16,759 So but everything we know 893 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,099 is that the 894 00:34:19,100 --> 00:34:21,678 participants are Google, Twitter, 895 00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:23,749 Facebook, Microsoft and ask 896 00:34:23,750 --> 00:34:25,099 of them. 897 00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:27,198 And, um, yeah, the goal 898 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:29,539 is to, uh, to discuss 899 00:34:29,540 --> 00:34:31,849 the reducing of 900 00:34:31,850 --> 00:34:34,519 accessibility of content and 901 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,649 the development of counter 902 00:34:36,650 --> 00:34:39,229 narratives and also, 903 00:34:39,230 --> 00:34:41,269 well, to discuss the problem of 904 00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:43,459 encryption that law enforcement 905 00:34:43,460 --> 00:34:44,460 might have. 906 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:46,320 We don't know more. 907 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,019 Yes, another example 908 00:34:53,310 --> 00:34:55,589 of these DOS attacks is 909 00:34:55,590 --> 00:34:57,809 the tabling of the ACTA 910 00:34:57,810 --> 00:35:00,029 approach, because we might 911 00:35:00,030 --> 00:35:02,429 have one on paper against ACTA, 912 00:35:02,430 --> 00:35:04,469 but the institutions have really been 913 00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:06,629 taking bits and pieces in order to 914 00:35:06,630 --> 00:35:09,629 introduce them into various 915 00:35:09,630 --> 00:35:10,859 initiatives and their. 916 00:35:12,410 --> 00:35:15,139 For example, they rebranded the voluntary 917 00:35:15,140 --> 00:35:17,239 cooperation, if 918 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:19,399 you remember, and act, the part that was 919 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,159 most criticized was the suggestion 920 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,289 that the business sector should cooperate 921 00:35:24,290 --> 00:35:26,389 between themselves in order to 922 00:35:26,390 --> 00:35:28,709 censor communications whenever 923 00:35:28,710 --> 00:35:30,829 a company thought they might 924 00:35:30,830 --> 00:35:33,499 have detected copyright infringements. 925 00:35:34,690 --> 00:35:36,789 So now in the new digital 926 00:35:36,790 --> 00:35:39,309 single market proposals 927 00:35:39,310 --> 00:35:41,919 of the commission, it was suggested 928 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,989 in a league, for instance, follow the 929 00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:45,999 money approaches have been put in place 930 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,129 in order to reduce advertising 931 00:35:48,130 --> 00:35:49,589 revenues. 932 00:35:49,590 --> 00:35:52,229 Actions aside from advertising companies 933 00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:53,760 or payment processors. 934 00:35:54,780 --> 00:35:56,369 And if you want to know what that means 935 00:35:56,370 --> 00:35:58,139 in practice, then you can go and ask 936 00:35:58,140 --> 00:36:00,299 WikiLeaks because they have their 937 00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:02,429 donations blocked by PayPal, 938 00:36:02,430 --> 00:36:04,649 Visa and MasterCard on 939 00:36:04,650 --> 00:36:06,779 the basis of zero legal 940 00:36:06,780 --> 00:36:08,999 basis. And they have never been 941 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,829 proven guilty and there was no court 942 00:36:10,830 --> 00:36:11,789 order. 943 00:36:11,790 --> 00:36:13,679 So this is basically the approach that 944 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,929 the commission now wants to do as well 945 00:36:15,930 --> 00:36:18,269 for fighting alleged 946 00:36:18,270 --> 00:36:19,469 copyright infringements. 947 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,289 Yes, so this 948 00:36:25,290 --> 00:36:27,719 was not the only time that the 949 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:29,719 approach was re tabled, 950 00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:33,089 if you take the net neutrality 951 00:36:33,090 --> 00:36:35,189 regulation that was concluded this year. 952 00:36:36,700 --> 00:36:38,799 So in the original proposal of the 953 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,869 commission, there were a couple of 954 00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:43,269 exceptions where access providers 955 00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:45,459 were allowed to take measures in 956 00:36:45,460 --> 00:36:47,469 order to manage their traffic, for 957 00:36:47,470 --> 00:36:49,379 example, to comply with a court order. 958 00:36:51,090 --> 00:36:53,219 But the commission or, well, DG 959 00:36:53,220 --> 00:36:55,289 Home added a 960 00:36:55,290 --> 00:36:57,569 note that said that access 961 00:36:57,570 --> 00:36:59,669 providers should also be able to manage 962 00:36:59,670 --> 00:37:02,069 their traffic in order to prevent serious 963 00:37:02,070 --> 00:37:03,070 crimes. 964 00:37:04,660 --> 00:37:06,669 So the commission gave no definition at 965 00:37:06,670 --> 00:37:08,529 all what crimes that might be talking 966 00:37:08,530 --> 00:37:10,809 about, and while, yeah, this 967 00:37:10,810 --> 00:37:13,089 was clearly, clearly an attempt 968 00:37:13,090 --> 00:37:15,189 to introduce lawless blocking 969 00:37:15,190 --> 00:37:17,469 and filtering and even 970 00:37:17,470 --> 00:37:19,419 the Council of the European Union raised 971 00:37:19,420 --> 00:37:21,189 in one document, the concern that this 972 00:37:21,190 --> 00:37:23,469 might actually be contrary 973 00:37:23,470 --> 00:37:25,329 to the Charter of Fundamental Rights. 974 00:37:26,470 --> 00:37:28,869 So in the end, this bit of text 975 00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:30,819 was deleted by the European Parliament 976 00:37:30,820 --> 00:37:32,560 and it's not in the regulation. 977 00:37:39,410 --> 00:37:40,550 Well, basically, 978 00:37:42,170 --> 00:37:44,269 by and large, it's not a 979 00:37:44,270 --> 00:37:46,669 recent call to Brussels bubble, 980 00:37:46,670 --> 00:37:49,879 and that has not been enough involvement 981 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,359 from the European citizenship. 982 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,489 It was basically I mean, if you want 983 00:37:55,490 --> 00:37:57,379 to change this and of course we cannot 984 00:37:57,380 --> 00:37:58,849 change the treaties, but a lot of other 985 00:37:58,850 --> 00:38:00,289 things are going wrong, you must get 986 00:38:00,290 --> 00:38:01,290 involved more. 987 00:38:03,420 --> 00:38:04,770 And, um, 988 00:38:05,940 --> 00:38:08,189 yeah, that's, uh, 989 00:38:08,190 --> 00:38:11,519 very eloquently put it is 990 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,289 if people were to exercise their 991 00:38:13,290 --> 00:38:15,839 citizenship, more should be 992 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,179 by and large, it would be better for 993 00:38:18,180 --> 00:38:19,859 the effectiveness of terrorism in general 994 00:38:19,860 --> 00:38:21,959 or what is often called activism 995 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,059 as an extreme thing should be 996 00:38:24,060 --> 00:38:24,959 considered more normal. 997 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,509 You could endlessly discuss that 998 00:38:27,510 --> 00:38:29,090 and you can get an ID. 999 00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:33,389 But we also are failing as activists. 1000 00:38:33,390 --> 00:38:34,440 Um, is 1001 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,109 this is a quote I heard from someone in 1002 00:38:37,110 --> 00:38:38,989 Brussels, but I forgot who said it was 1003 00:38:38,990 --> 00:38:40,019 basically boiled down. 1004 00:38:40,020 --> 00:38:40,949 We have civil society. 1005 00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:42,359 We don't have to be civil. 1006 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,489 A lot of civil society involvement, 1007 00:38:44,490 --> 00:38:46,469 especially when people initially coming 1008 00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:47,969 into this arena. 1009 00:38:47,970 --> 00:38:49,209 Um. 1010 00:38:49,210 --> 00:38:52,029 Tends to be very, very impolite, 1011 00:38:52,030 --> 00:38:54,549 um, you really don't want and you 1012 00:38:54,550 --> 00:38:56,689 know what what kind of messages and 1013 00:38:56,690 --> 00:38:59,049 MEPs often get from the very few people 1014 00:38:59,050 --> 00:39:00,509 that actually do get involved in those 1015 00:39:00,510 --> 00:39:01,569 shows? 1016 00:39:01,570 --> 00:39:02,570 Um. 1017 00:39:03,270 --> 00:39:05,309 And of course, people are angry about, 1018 00:39:05,310 --> 00:39:06,719 let's say, a very bad legislative 1019 00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:08,879 proposal, but 1020 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,289 if you are angry about something, 1021 00:39:11,340 --> 00:39:13,619 it may be worthwhile to sit down 1022 00:39:13,620 --> 00:39:15,869 and realize the person was 1023 00:39:15,870 --> 00:39:17,939 pushing this because he or she has 1024 00:39:17,940 --> 00:39:19,329 been told by corporate lobbyists that 1025 00:39:19,330 --> 00:39:21,209 this will be good and they may not 1026 00:39:21,210 --> 00:39:23,589 actually be aware to begin with 1027 00:39:23,590 --> 00:39:25,619 of the negative impact of this proposal 1028 00:39:25,620 --> 00:39:26,909 to someone else. 1029 00:39:26,910 --> 00:39:29,309 And if you 1030 00:39:29,310 --> 00:39:32,009 start by calling them idiots or sellouts 1031 00:39:32,010 --> 00:39:34,409 or corporate stooges, 1032 00:39:34,410 --> 00:39:36,179 that's not very helpful in convincing 1033 00:39:36,180 --> 00:39:37,180 people. 1034 00:39:38,610 --> 00:39:40,199 Um, yeah. 1035 00:39:41,810 --> 00:39:43,260 And in terms of. 1036 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,699 Uh, atavism, being 1037 00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:49,799 polite and, uh, sometimes gets you a 1038 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,169 lot further than Dunfee, be very blunt. 1039 00:39:53,670 --> 00:39:54,899 Um, but 1040 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,229 please do get involved, and as 1041 00:39:58,230 --> 00:40:00,509 far as we are concerned, the first 1042 00:40:00,510 --> 00:40:02,729 stage of being more actively 1043 00:40:02,730 --> 00:40:04,979 involved is just make sure that you are 1044 00:40:04,980 --> 00:40:06,809 getting informed. 1045 00:40:06,810 --> 00:40:08,969 Like I said earlier on 1046 00:40:08,970 --> 00:40:11,159 the national media, our miserable 1047 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,259 failure in reporting on Brussels, but 1048 00:40:13,260 --> 00:40:15,149 that is not necessarily a problem from 1049 00:40:15,150 --> 00:40:16,679 the Internet. And the Internet has been 1050 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,289 about bypassing gatekeepers for 1051 00:40:19,290 --> 00:40:20,939 the better part of three or four decades. 1052 00:40:20,940 --> 00:40:23,429 Now, um, subscribe 1053 00:40:23,430 --> 00:40:25,649 to newsletters from NGOs 1054 00:40:25,650 --> 00:40:27,989 like Edri or others in whatever 1055 00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:29,219 policy area interested. 1056 00:40:29,220 --> 00:40:31,019 We happen to be interested in this policy 1057 00:40:31,020 --> 00:40:32,020 making. 1058 00:40:32,860 --> 00:40:35,079 But, um, social media can 1059 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:36,699 also be interested in just following the 1060 00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:37,700 right Twitter feeds. 1061 00:40:38,990 --> 00:40:41,839 But especially in this area, 1062 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,519 if you happen to be in theater, you can 1063 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,769 actually be know a lot of the news 1064 00:40:45,770 --> 00:40:47,779 that may be in the newspapers one or two 1065 00:40:47,780 --> 00:40:48,780 weeks in advance. 1066 00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:53,339 I'm also the NSA 1067 00:40:53,340 --> 00:40:55,619 is more than about pictures of cats, 1068 00:40:55,620 --> 00:40:57,989 as much as I love cats and 1069 00:40:57,990 --> 00:40:59,210 people may disagree with me. 1070 00:41:00,260 --> 00:41:02,639 You can use it for use in a useful 1071 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,739 way for activism and. 1072 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,509 For example. 1073 00:41:07,510 --> 00:41:09,879 But just asking just sending emails 1074 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,099 or engaged with your enemy by merely 1075 00:41:12,100 --> 00:41:13,749 asking questions about the show, it's not 1076 00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:15,759 even saying that he or she is doing the 1077 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:17,419 wrong thing, but. 1078 00:41:17,420 --> 00:41:19,699 Actively citizens actively asking 1079 00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:21,619 MEPs what their position is on a certain 1080 00:41:21,620 --> 00:41:23,899 stage, on certain Duchaine is in itself 1081 00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:25,999 a strong political signal that there 1082 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,319 may be electoral price to be paid 1083 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,439 to the men doing the wrong thing 1084 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:31,519 on a certain topic. 1085 00:41:36,150 --> 00:41:37,619 Of course, you have to know a little bit 1086 00:41:37,620 --> 00:41:39,169 about what's going on. 1087 00:41:39,170 --> 00:41:41,279 Another thing you can get if if you don't 1088 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,589 want, if you don't feel comfortable 1089 00:41:43,590 --> 00:41:44,590 with. 1090 00:41:45,180 --> 00:41:47,249 Following the case very much in depth 1091 00:41:47,250 --> 00:41:49,979 and will probably be much happier 1092 00:41:49,980 --> 00:41:53,039 in the technical things, the. 1093 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,079 The creation and maintenance of tools 1094 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,719 like political memory, like Poltrack, 1095 00:41:57,720 --> 00:41:59,909 Pippi Longstocking, slobby plan, 1096 00:41:59,910 --> 00:42:01,649 you name it. 1097 00:42:01,650 --> 00:42:03,569 It's only very few people are doing that 1098 00:42:03,570 --> 00:42:05,789 right now and, um, 1099 00:42:05,790 --> 00:42:07,379 political memory, if we could rebuild 1100 00:42:07,380 --> 00:42:09,759 that again and get the wonderful people 1101 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,849 of color to more 1102 00:42:11,850 --> 00:42:13,229 programing capacity, because that's what 1103 00:42:13,230 --> 00:42:14,629 it's like for the two of us running 1104 00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:16,499 political memory, that will be incredibly 1105 00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:18,119 helpful to others. 1106 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,459 And that is much more than just coding. 1107 00:42:20,460 --> 00:42:22,289 That is pretty much political activism in 1108 00:42:22,290 --> 00:42:23,290 my book. 1109 00:42:25,570 --> 00:42:28,089 Yes, also, as a third stage, 1110 00:42:28,090 --> 00:42:30,159 you could use other tools in order 1111 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,649 to get more involved, for example, by 1112 00:42:32,650 --> 00:42:34,779 responding to public consultations, the 1113 00:42:34,780 --> 00:42:36,459 European Commission launches every once 1114 00:42:36,460 --> 00:42:37,840 in a while, once in a while. 1115 00:42:39,790 --> 00:42:41,469 So at the moment, there are a couple of 1116 00:42:41,470 --> 00:42:44,229 very important ones open 1117 00:42:44,230 --> 00:42:46,299 here on our 1118 00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:49,179 picture. It says the twenty first, but 1119 00:42:49,180 --> 00:42:51,279 the one on platforms is 1120 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,979 actually open until the twenty eighth. 1121 00:42:53,980 --> 00:42:56,139 So this consultation will really 1122 00:42:56,140 --> 00:42:58,389 be crucial for new rules 1123 00:42:58,390 --> 00:43:00,489 on important issues like 1124 00:43:00,490 --> 00:43:03,009 online privacy, like open data, 1125 00:43:03,010 --> 00:43:05,259 copyright, or even the right 1126 00:43:05,260 --> 00:43:07,509 not to have your uploaded 1127 00:43:07,510 --> 00:43:09,669 to YouTube or Facebook or Twitter 1128 00:43:09,670 --> 00:43:11,829 or whatever to have them 1129 00:43:11,830 --> 00:43:12,969 deleted again. 1130 00:43:12,970 --> 00:43:15,069 So and these are just some of the issues 1131 00:43:15,070 --> 00:43:16,239 at stake. 1132 00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:18,339 You can respond to this 1133 00:43:18,340 --> 00:43:20,469 one online on the European 1134 00:43:20,470 --> 00:43:21,879 Commission's website. 1135 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,039 The second consultation, which is also 1136 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,229 still open until the 20th, is 1137 00:43:26,230 --> 00:43:27,339 on geo blocking, 1138 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,519 you know, this annoying thing 1139 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,919 which prevents you to access 1140 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,739 videos across borders. 1141 00:43:35,740 --> 00:43:38,349 So this is your chance really to 1142 00:43:38,350 --> 00:43:40,059 tell the commission that we need to get 1143 00:43:40,060 --> 00:43:42,549 rid of blocked videos 1144 00:43:42,550 --> 00:43:45,069 and barriers in the digital space. 1145 00:43:45,070 --> 00:43:47,439 A third consultation, a very 1146 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,719 important one as well, that is open 1147 00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:52,179 until March, is on the transparency 1148 00:43:52,180 --> 00:43:54,399 of trialogues by the ombuds 1149 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:55,400 woman. 1150 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,449 I think later today there will also 1151 00:43:58,450 --> 00:44:00,939 be a work workshop here happening 1152 00:44:00,940 --> 00:44:03,339 at 32 33 as self 1153 00:44:03,340 --> 00:44:05,169 organize session. 1154 00:44:05,170 --> 00:44:07,599 Where will we meet up in order to 1155 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,099 collectively respond to the 1156 00:44:09,100 --> 00:44:11,199 consultations? So go check out the 1157 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:12,789 wiki if you want to come. 1158 00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:14,859 We can do well, we 1159 00:44:14,860 --> 00:44:15,860 can do it life. 1160 00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:18,079 And yeah. 1161 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:19,080 So 1162 00:44:20,170 --> 00:44:22,359 in sum and we're going to come to an end 1163 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,609 now, we're still 1164 00:44:24,610 --> 00:44:27,069 too few to battle on all fronts 1165 00:44:27,070 --> 00:44:29,229 in order to be a true counterweight 1166 00:44:29,230 --> 00:44:31,179 to industry lobbying. 1167 00:44:31,180 --> 00:44:33,369 I heard recently that there is 1168 00:44:33,370 --> 00:44:35,349 approximately ten times more funding 1169 00:44:35,350 --> 00:44:37,839 available for US NGOs 1170 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,179 from foundations in the United States 1171 00:44:40,180 --> 00:44:41,350 than there is in Europe. 1172 00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:45,339 So but among the many reasons 1173 00:44:45,340 --> 00:44:46,749 why we have been failing 1174 00:44:48,340 --> 00:44:50,439 with the defense of human rights at the 1175 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,689 EU level is also the political 1176 00:44:52,690 --> 00:44:54,819 indifference and resignation in 1177 00:44:54,820 --> 00:44:55,840 our communities. 1178 00:44:57,300 --> 00:44:59,499 We while we tend to stay 1179 00:44:59,500 --> 00:45:01,559 still too much in our own filter bubble 1180 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,689 and in our own comfort zone, so 1181 00:45:03,690 --> 00:45:05,879 we really should go out more 1182 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,039 and talk to people because 1183 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,499 otherwise we end up where we are now 1184 00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:13,169 with a super distorted impression 1185 00:45:13,170 --> 00:45:15,329 of the importance of our 1186 00:45:15,330 --> 00:45:16,799 own issues. 1187 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,899 And well, so far, we have 1188 00:45:18,900 --> 00:45:20,879 simply been failing to invest more 1189 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,069 efforts into 1190 00:45:23,070 --> 00:45:25,569 making digital policy making 1191 00:45:25,570 --> 00:45:27,839 better, maybe by putting it in a 1192 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,999 bigger context in order to reach 1193 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,380 a broader audience. 1194 00:45:34,610 --> 00:45:36,499 Yeah, basically, we're seeing that the 1195 00:45:36,500 --> 00:45:38,029 European project is under tremendous 1196 00:45:38,030 --> 00:45:39,030 pressure, 1197 00:45:40,340 --> 00:45:42,079 there's the refugee crisis, there's the 1198 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:43,789 Greek crisis in the background. 1199 00:45:43,790 --> 00:45:46,699 France is in a state of emergency 1200 00:45:46,700 --> 00:45:48,859 and there are clean noises that the state 1201 00:45:48,860 --> 00:45:50,839 of emergency will be permanent. 1202 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,179 Poland and Hungary are borderline fascist 1203 00:45:53,180 --> 00:45:54,180 states already 1204 00:45:56,060 --> 00:45:57,170 and at the same time. 1205 00:45:58,360 --> 00:45:59,360 Uh. 1206 00:46:00,420 --> 00:46:02,939 We are still European citizens, and 1207 00:46:02,940 --> 00:46:05,009 if we leave this to the institutions 1208 00:46:05,010 --> 00:46:07,709 themselves, this will not necessarily, 1209 00:46:07,710 --> 00:46:09,929 uh, well, we 1210 00:46:09,930 --> 00:46:11,129 can continue to blame it on the 1211 00:46:11,130 --> 00:46:13,439 politicians, but the politicians are only 1212 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,449 as good as the people that support them. 1213 00:46:16,690 --> 00:46:18,879 Yeah, and unfortunately, this 1214 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,129 year we have been losing some 1215 00:46:21,130 --> 00:46:23,409 of the important battles on mass 1216 00:46:23,410 --> 00:46:25,479 surveillance, for example. 1217 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,389 Yeah, like data retention or espionage 1218 00:46:28,390 --> 00:46:30,399 in some member states. 1219 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,739 But we also had enormous successes 1220 00:46:32,740 --> 00:46:34,659 in the past, like ACTA, like net 1221 00:46:34,660 --> 00:46:36,969 neutrality, or we fought 1222 00:46:36,970 --> 00:46:39,189 successfully against mandatory web 1223 00:46:39,190 --> 00:46:40,179 blocking. 1224 00:46:40,180 --> 00:46:42,279 So if we if only 1225 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,349 a couple of people are able to do 1226 00:46:44,350 --> 00:46:46,539 all this to to have such an impact, 1227 00:46:46,540 --> 00:46:49,609 imagine what we could do if we were more. 1228 00:46:49,610 --> 00:46:51,889 So I think we just need to stop blaming 1229 00:46:51,890 --> 00:46:54,259 the EU for all its failings, which 1230 00:46:54,260 --> 00:46:55,489 it clearly is, 1231 00:46:56,540 --> 00:46:59,659 but we cannot credibly criticize 1232 00:46:59,660 --> 00:47:01,879 the institutions if we don't also look 1233 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,099 at our own failures, if we don't 1234 00:47:04,100 --> 00:47:06,139 try to change something and if we don't 1235 00:47:06,140 --> 00:47:07,489 try to get involved. 1236 00:47:07,490 --> 00:47:09,769 So, yeah, I think we 1237 00:47:09,770 --> 00:47:12,169 refuse to believe that this 1238 00:47:12,170 --> 00:47:14,299 well resonated and pessimistic 1239 00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:16,429 vision of digital rights 1240 00:47:16,430 --> 00:47:18,619 at the EU level is really the best 1241 00:47:18,620 --> 00:47:19,620 we can do. 1242 00:47:21,730 --> 00:47:23,559 And this is more or less so you had to 1243 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:24,560 bring in. 1244 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:43,449 Thank you very much for this inspiring 1245 00:47:43,450 --> 00:47:45,699 talk. We still have around 10 to 15 1246 00:47:45,700 --> 00:47:47,319 minutes for questions and answers. 1247 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,509 If you have questions, please move to 1248 00:47:49,510 --> 00:47:51,579 one of the four microphones 1249 00:47:51,580 --> 00:47:53,289 we have on here. 1250 00:47:53,290 --> 00:47:54,819 Just move to one of the microphones if 1251 00:47:54,820 --> 00:47:55,929 you want to ask a question. 1252 00:47:55,930 --> 00:47:57,549 And if you're already leaving the room, 1253 00:47:57,550 --> 00:47:59,769 please do so very quietly 1254 00:47:59,770 --> 00:48:01,269 so you don't disturb the people who still 1255 00:48:01,270 --> 00:48:03,639 have questions for our speakers. 1256 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:04,899 We will start with a question from the 1257 00:48:04,900 --> 00:48:06,159 Internet. 1258 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,679 Hello. Somebody on Iasi asks, 1259 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,479 How can we mobilize more people to get 1260 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:11,979 active against bad legislation? 1261 00:48:11,980 --> 00:48:14,019 And how can we educate politicians that 1262 00:48:14,020 --> 00:48:15,909 seem to be resistance against better 1263 00:48:15,910 --> 00:48:16,910 knowledge? 1264 00:48:18,660 --> 00:48:20,459 Well, for starters, mobilizing the kids 1265 00:48:20,460 --> 00:48:21,679 of informing other people, 1266 00:48:22,710 --> 00:48:24,839 and it also means 1267 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,449 not only talking to your Facebook friends 1268 00:48:27,450 --> 00:48:29,639 or because that, again, is 1269 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,889 what Kirsten was talking about, being in 1270 00:48:31,890 --> 00:48:33,359 our own little bubbles. 1271 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,459 It's also talking to people that may not 1272 00:48:35,460 --> 00:48:37,769 necessarily politically agree with you 1273 00:48:37,770 --> 00:48:39,580 or are entirely different spheres. 1274 00:48:40,770 --> 00:48:42,869 Yeah, I think you can just 1275 00:48:42,870 --> 00:48:45,089 follow us our three stages that 1276 00:48:45,090 --> 00:48:46,169 we just presented. 1277 00:48:46,170 --> 00:48:48,269 Firstly, get informed 1278 00:48:48,270 --> 00:48:51,449 or try to read as much as possible. 1279 00:48:51,450 --> 00:48:53,549 Secondly, try to contact 1280 00:48:53,550 --> 00:48:54,959 your politicians. 1281 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,599 And thirdly, communicate about 1282 00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,289 what you are doing to your friends. 1283 00:49:00,870 --> 00:49:02,249 All right. Thank you. Again, if you have 1284 00:49:02,250 --> 00:49:04,409 a question, just move to one of our four 1285 00:49:04,410 --> 00:49:05,669 microphones. We will start with a 1286 00:49:05,670 --> 00:49:07,029 question from up there. 1287 00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:09,239 Um, two remarks about 1288 00:49:09,240 --> 00:49:11,489 your talk. You first said that 1289 00:49:11,490 --> 00:49:13,619 the citizens should 1290 00:49:13,620 --> 00:49:15,419 fulfill their citizenship. 1291 00:49:15,420 --> 00:49:17,639 Yeah, but in my personal 1292 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:18,959 opinion, there is the big 1293 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,339 missing link that you only can fulfill 1294 00:49:23,340 --> 00:49:25,439 the citizenship if you know what 1295 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:26,609 it's all about. 1296 00:49:26,610 --> 00:49:29,159 So I think we need to remind ourselves 1297 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:31,469 that the normal user 1298 00:49:31,470 --> 00:49:33,749 of a phone or a PC 1299 00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:35,969 or whatever is already overwhelmed 1300 00:49:35,970 --> 00:49:38,099 by Conficker writing his email 1301 00:49:38,100 --> 00:49:39,599 or her email program. 1302 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:41,669 Yeah, um, at 1303 00:49:41,670 --> 00:49:43,709 a birthday party, I met some acquaintance 1304 00:49:43,710 --> 00:49:45,959 of mine and I told all about the 1305 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,119 US and the agency and what we know 1306 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,259 from Edward Snowden. 1307 00:49:49,260 --> 00:49:51,599 And he called me nuts and said, no, 1308 00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:53,039 this is happening. This is happening 1309 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,259 right now. And I tried to 1310 00:49:55,260 --> 00:49:57,359 boil it down for them, but they 1311 00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:57,999 didn't believe me. 1312 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,199 So I think it's our responsibility 1313 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,259 to not educate, but give the information 1314 00:50:04,260 --> 00:50:06,509 to the people in a more 1315 00:50:06,510 --> 00:50:08,099 simplistic way. 1316 00:50:08,100 --> 00:50:08,909 Yeah. 1317 00:50:08,910 --> 00:50:11,699 And the second thing I want to add, um, 1318 00:50:11,700 --> 00:50:13,919 the we need also as a more 1319 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,679 positive way of attacking this problem, 1320 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,229 uh, strengthen the European Parliament 1321 00:50:19,230 --> 00:50:21,629 parliamentarians by reminding 1322 00:50:21,630 --> 00:50:24,479 them how important they are and 1323 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,889 that they are doing an important job. 1324 00:50:26,890 --> 00:50:28,409 If you're looking at the crisis that we 1325 00:50:28,410 --> 00:50:30,329 had the last couple of years, like the 1326 00:50:30,330 --> 00:50:32,609 Greece, a Greek finance crisis and so on, 1327 00:50:32,610 --> 00:50:34,709 I would be rather pissed if it would be 1328 00:50:34,710 --> 00:50:36,869 a parliamentarian because what 1329 00:50:36,870 --> 00:50:38,939 the commission did back then and 1330 00:50:38,940 --> 00:50:41,579 the state heads were just nuts 1331 00:50:41,580 --> 00:50:44,369 and I would be sitting here and have no 1332 00:50:44,370 --> 00:50:46,229 power over the political agenda. 1333 00:50:46,230 --> 00:50:48,599 So if it would also remind them how 1334 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,309 important their work is, I think this 1335 00:50:50,310 --> 00:50:51,659 would also give a positive spin. 1336 00:50:51,660 --> 00:50:52,589 Thank you. 1337 00:50:52,590 --> 00:50:54,119 Thank you. Do you want to comment on that 1338 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:55,109 or. 1339 00:50:55,110 --> 00:50:56,489 Well, no, really. 1340 00:50:56,490 --> 00:50:58,499 OK, so let's go further with the next 1341 00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:00,809 question from over here, please. 1342 00:51:00,810 --> 00:51:02,579 Yes. Thank you one. 1343 00:51:02,580 --> 00:51:04,739 And you also have an overview or an idea 1344 00:51:04,740 --> 00:51:07,049 about how the actual 1345 00:51:07,050 --> 00:51:09,269 I'd call it half legal and illegal, uh, 1346 00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:11,489 corruption from the lobbyists towards 1347 00:51:11,490 --> 00:51:13,709 the parliamentarians is how many benefits 1348 00:51:13,710 --> 00:51:16,009 that actually give them to make 1349 00:51:16,010 --> 00:51:18,659 some kind of that, uh, more public, 1350 00:51:18,660 --> 00:51:20,099 because now I'd also be a big deal 1351 00:51:20,100 --> 00:51:22,199 breaker for reasonable 1352 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:22,979 suggestions. 1353 00:51:22,980 --> 00:51:25,469 No, I don't have an idea 1354 00:51:25,470 --> 00:51:27,029 about that. 1355 00:51:27,030 --> 00:51:29,219 Every parliamentarian is required 1356 00:51:29,220 --> 00:51:31,889 to fill out a paper that's called, uh, 1357 00:51:31,890 --> 00:51:34,019 what's it called, uh, conflict 1358 00:51:34,020 --> 00:51:36,209 of interest paper where they 1359 00:51:36,210 --> 00:51:38,279 stayed on which boards they are 1360 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,559 on or in which companies they've been 1361 00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,749 engaged. And, uh, that's you can 1362 00:51:42,750 --> 00:51:44,759 look up on the European Parliament 1363 00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,789 website, but it's not really 1364 00:51:47,790 --> 00:51:49,889 known how much corruption there is 1365 00:51:49,890 --> 00:51:52,139 because, uh, parliamentarians well, 1366 00:51:52,140 --> 00:51:53,759 apart from the green group who just 1367 00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:55,559 started recently to make all their 1368 00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,779 meetings public, we don't really know 1369 00:51:57,780 --> 00:51:59,849 who who they are meeting, if they are 1370 00:51:59,850 --> 00:52:01,079 invited to dinners. 1371 00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:02,609 Ah, yeah. 1372 00:52:02,610 --> 00:52:03,929 But are there any more initiative 1373 00:52:03,930 --> 00:52:05,489 initiatives to actually cover that to 1374 00:52:05,490 --> 00:52:06,149 make it public? 1375 00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:08,279 Well, in a way, 1376 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,099 it's a positive development. 1377 00:52:10,100 --> 00:52:12,239 This as much more skepticism because at 1378 00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:14,329 least the euro skeptic presses a national 1379 00:52:14,330 --> 00:52:16,409 and international level, tend to 1380 00:52:16,410 --> 00:52:18,359 have, for example, to have some 1381 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,309 parliamentarians were called by British 1382 00:52:20,310 --> 00:52:22,049 tabloids that wanted to expose the 1383 00:52:22,050 --> 00:52:24,809 corruption of the European institutions. 1384 00:52:24,810 --> 00:52:26,789 But the few European parliamentarians 1385 00:52:26,790 --> 00:52:28,169 that are stupid enough to get caught in 1386 00:52:28,170 --> 00:52:30,479 this, the typical the typical figures 1387 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:31,439 are actually not that high. 1388 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,119 And the amounts of money involved, it 1389 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:34,709 makes more sense to me. 1390 00:52:34,710 --> 00:52:37,109 But like you said, there's now a complete 1391 00:52:37,110 --> 00:52:38,430 overview of how much happens. 1392 00:52:39,740 --> 00:52:41,809 But it would be very interesting to look 1393 00:52:41,810 --> 00:52:43,909 at your own map, and, for example, I 1394 00:52:43,910 --> 00:52:45,919 know this, a Dutch MP that has a 1395 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:47,959 foundation called Friends of MEPs, such 1396 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,029 and such. So this foundation 1397 00:52:50,030 --> 00:52:52,099 is not run by himself, run by his 1398 00:52:52,100 --> 00:52:53,149 friends. 1399 00:52:53,150 --> 00:52:55,279 And obviously any money that 1400 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:56,749 goes that does not end up with him and 1401 00:52:56,750 --> 00:52:57,859 does not influence him at all. 1402 00:52:57,860 --> 00:52:58,880 No, sir, not at all. 1403 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:02,809 And there's only a few hundred thousand 1404 00:53:02,810 --> 00:53:04,159 euros going on in that foundation. 1405 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:05,359 Do you happen to know that from public 1406 00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,429 filings? But not not there's 1407 00:53:07,430 --> 00:53:08,599 not a complete picture of that. 1408 00:53:09,740 --> 00:53:11,059 All right, let's proceed, because we 1409 00:53:11,060 --> 00:53:12,469 still have a bunch of questions from over 1410 00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:13,470 here, please. 1411 00:53:15,230 --> 00:53:16,579 Yes, yes. 1412 00:53:16,580 --> 00:53:19,099 It seems difficult to estimate the impact 1413 00:53:19,100 --> 00:53:21,349 that it can have to, for example, 1414 00:53:21,350 --> 00:53:23,509 write an email to an MP or 1415 00:53:23,510 --> 00:53:25,489 to fill out these long and tedious 1416 00:53:25,490 --> 00:53:27,169 consultation forms. 1417 00:53:27,170 --> 00:53:29,809 Can you give an estimation 1418 00:53:29,810 --> 00:53:31,729 how much impact is it going to make if 1419 00:53:31,730 --> 00:53:33,979 some person actually takes the effort 1420 00:53:33,980 --> 00:53:36,349 to put all their thoughts into a mail 1421 00:53:36,350 --> 00:53:37,969 or into a consultation? 1422 00:53:37,970 --> 00:53:40,189 So always depends how you do it. 1423 00:53:40,190 --> 00:53:42,739 If you just take a mass e-mail template 1424 00:53:42,740 --> 00:53:45,019 and send it to hundreds of MEPs, 1425 00:53:45,020 --> 00:53:47,149 then it will most certainly 1426 00:53:47,150 --> 00:53:49,159 have not a lot of impact. 1427 00:53:50,930 --> 00:53:53,329 On the other hand, 1428 00:53:53,330 --> 00:53:55,969 filling out really long 1429 00:53:55,970 --> 00:53:58,309 online consultations by the commission. 1430 00:53:58,310 --> 00:54:00,979 I think it's really worthwhile doing that 1431 00:54:00,980 --> 00:54:03,139 because the commission sometimes well, 1432 00:54:03,140 --> 00:54:05,359 they just tend to take 1433 00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,849 all of the answers and then shamelessly 1434 00:54:07,850 --> 00:54:09,409 exploit them and say, 1435 00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,189 well, justify their proposals. 1436 00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:15,589 If 90 percent of the answers 1437 00:54:15,590 --> 00:54:18,019 are only coming from industry, then 1438 00:54:18,020 --> 00:54:20,089 of course, the commission is 1439 00:54:20,090 --> 00:54:22,249 free to follow whatever 1440 00:54:22,250 --> 00:54:23,239 it wants. 1441 00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:25,579 And it's also very much depends on 1442 00:54:25,580 --> 00:54:27,829 whether the MP you're writing to is 1443 00:54:27,830 --> 00:54:30,029 actually, for example, an operator or 1444 00:54:30,030 --> 00:54:31,279 a shadow rapporteur on a particular 1445 00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,859 dossier or actively involved with that. 1446 00:54:33,860 --> 00:54:36,079 And the way to make an impact, 1447 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:37,909 sometimes more effective, is engaging 1448 00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:39,829 with staff members of the committee 1449 00:54:39,830 --> 00:54:41,959 because a lot of people rely heavily on 1450 00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,389 the staff, on their assistance 1451 00:54:44,390 --> 00:54:46,159 and sometimes on assistance. 1452 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:47,599 Having an assistant on your side can be 1453 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:49,489 more important than having an MEP on your 1454 00:54:49,490 --> 00:54:52,639 side because the MEPs merely 1455 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,909 didn't have the assistance. 1456 00:54:55,910 --> 00:54:57,289 Thank you. Next question from the 1457 00:54:57,290 --> 00:54:58,939 microphone, please. 1458 00:54:58,940 --> 00:55:00,649 Hi, um, it's not really a question, but 1459 00:55:00,650 --> 00:55:02,779 you talked a lot about claimable, and 1460 00:55:02,780 --> 00:55:04,459 we have a group that is currently trying 1461 00:55:04,460 --> 00:55:06,829 to update the project, but we need help. 1462 00:55:06,830 --> 00:55:08,899 So if some of you are available, 1463 00:55:08,900 --> 00:55:10,759 you can come to the House on the top 1464 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,289 floor and ask how you can help on 1465 00:55:13,290 --> 00:55:14,290 ablazing. 1466 00:55:15,790 --> 00:55:17,469 Thank you. Next question from all of you. 1467 00:55:20,700 --> 00:55:21,700 Is it open? 1468 00:55:23,010 --> 00:55:25,349 Have you ever thought of using 1469 00:55:25,350 --> 00:55:27,449 the tools the Khaliq before has said, 1470 00:55:27,450 --> 00:55:28,979 OK, you need to move to bring your 1471 00:55:28,980 --> 00:55:31,319 message in a little bit more 1472 00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,019 usable form to the people on the floor? 1473 00:55:34,020 --> 00:55:36,089 There were about roughly 800 1474 00:55:36,090 --> 00:55:37,739 people over here. 1475 00:55:37,740 --> 00:55:40,019 If you can arrange 1476 00:55:40,020 --> 00:55:42,479 to have whatever this manifold 1477 00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:44,729 by one thousand and you can do 1478 00:55:44,730 --> 00:55:46,979 this by vital 1479 00:55:46,980 --> 00:55:47,879 tools. 1480 00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,429 Have you ever heard about Airbus? 1481 00:55:50,430 --> 00:55:52,439 Avers is a tool where you can set the 1482 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:54,929 petition, which is sent to somebody 1483 00:55:54,930 --> 00:55:57,179 and this can be replicated using Twitter, 1484 00:55:57,180 --> 00:55:59,339 using Facebook, etc., and 1485 00:55:59,340 --> 00:56:01,409 the person who is in here who 1486 00:56:01,410 --> 00:56:03,719 has a value of saying, I trust 1487 00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:06,419 this person, this will be replicated, 1488 00:56:06,420 --> 00:56:08,579 and this makes your your task 1489 00:56:08,580 --> 00:56:10,679 much easier as well as makes it 1490 00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:12,869 ours. The next thing is 1491 00:56:12,870 --> 00:56:13,949 for the news. 1492 00:56:13,950 --> 00:56:16,169 Only bad news or good news 1493 00:56:16,170 --> 00:56:18,869 that the standard in the news industry. 1494 00:56:18,870 --> 00:56:20,969 So what you need to do, for instance, 1495 00:56:20,970 --> 00:56:23,159 and I'm trying to do something 1496 00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:25,019 as well, like, for instance, net 1497 00:56:25,020 --> 00:56:26,369 neutrality. 1498 00:56:26,370 --> 00:56:28,439 If you take the list 1499 00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,799 of who actually supported net neutrality, 1500 00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:34,109 bring this in a simple chart 1501 00:56:34,110 --> 00:56:35,939 and publish this. 1502 00:56:35,940 --> 00:56:38,069 Then the media will go on to it and 1503 00:56:38,070 --> 00:56:40,259 also the people will go on to it and then 1504 00:56:40,260 --> 00:56:42,849 their MEPs will listen to you. 1505 00:56:42,850 --> 00:56:45,279 OK, send us your 1506 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,529 tool that you were talking about, 1507 00:56:47,530 --> 00:56:48,530 Abess, OK? 1508 00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:50,579 All right, thank you. Next question, 1509 00:56:50,580 --> 00:56:52,269 please, from this microphone. 1510 00:56:52,270 --> 00:56:53,879 Hi, thanks very much for your talk. 1511 00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:55,559 I wanted to add the information you 1512 00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:57,299 mentioned that we're going to fill out 1513 00:56:57,300 --> 00:56:59,729 these, uh, open service 1514 00:56:59,730 --> 00:57:01,109 at a self organization. 1515 00:57:01,110 --> 00:57:03,119 So for everyone, that session is at three 1516 00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,579 p.m. in room C three. 1517 00:57:05,580 --> 00:57:08,129 Very easy to remember at C three, 1518 00:57:08,130 --> 00:57:10,049 room C, three at three p.m. 1519 00:57:10,050 --> 00:57:11,999 So please be there 20 minutes of your 1520 00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:13,679 time can really have an impact on how the 1521 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,109 EU legislates every platform from 1522 00:57:16,110 --> 00:57:17,939 Facebook to Airbnb to Wikipedia. 1523 00:57:17,940 --> 00:57:18,949 We need you there. Thanks. 1524 00:57:18,950 --> 00:57:21,029 Yeah. Thanks for the reminder. 1525 00:57:21,030 --> 00:57:23,009 And before do we have another question 1526 00:57:23,010 --> 00:57:24,010 from the Internet? 1527 00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:28,969 Um, there is somebody from 1528 00:57:28,970 --> 00:57:30,979 Switzerland asking how he or she can 1529 00:57:30,980 --> 00:57:31,980 help. 1530 00:57:35,230 --> 00:57:36,230 Actually, 1531 00:57:37,690 --> 00:57:39,969 Switzerland is a fairly unique 1532 00:57:39,970 --> 00:57:42,909 position in the sense that it's mostly 1533 00:57:42,910 --> 00:57:44,289 through bilateral agreements, which 1534 00:57:44,290 --> 00:57:46,449 merely have to execute whatever is cooked 1535 00:57:46,450 --> 00:57:48,699 up in Brussels and has no 1536 00:57:48,700 --> 00:57:50,589 say in it whatsoever. 1537 00:57:50,590 --> 00:57:53,649 Um, I would say a Swiss person 1538 00:57:53,650 --> 00:57:55,809 would be most helpful in helping 1539 00:57:55,810 --> 00:57:57,939 infrastructures for people within 1540 00:57:57,940 --> 00:57:59,979 the union to be politically active, 1541 00:57:59,980 --> 00:58:02,079 things like political memory and 1542 00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:03,080 all the other tools 1543 00:58:04,450 --> 00:58:06,429 or being active at the Swiss national 1544 00:58:06,430 --> 00:58:08,919 stage. But there is no Swiss MEPs 1545 00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:09,920 you could lobby to. 1546 00:58:11,530 --> 00:58:13,599 Switzerland, like Norway, Iceland 1547 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:15,939 and Liechtenstein, basically does 1548 00:58:15,940 --> 00:58:18,099 whatever Russell says tells them to do 1549 00:58:18,100 --> 00:58:20,169 without having a vote. 1550 00:58:20,170 --> 00:58:22,749 So I was actually worse off than we are. 1551 00:58:22,750 --> 00:58:25,089 And support your local NGO, 1552 00:58:25,090 --> 00:58:26,429 I guess, would be the answer. 1553 00:58:27,450 --> 00:58:28,619 Thank you. Next question from the 1554 00:58:28,620 --> 00:58:29,620 microphone, please. 1555 00:58:30,870 --> 00:58:32,999 Yes, hello, um, I just 1556 00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:34,780 want to say I really enjoyed your talk, 1557 00:58:35,820 --> 00:58:37,499 but something that bothered me and I'm 1558 00:58:37,500 --> 00:58:40,019 hearing here as well is very much an us 1559 00:58:40,020 --> 00:58:42,329 and them mentality between politicians 1560 00:58:42,330 --> 00:58:44,949 and activists and just citizens. 1561 00:58:44,950 --> 00:58:47,579 Um, I'm a politician in Switzerland, 1562 00:58:47,580 --> 00:58:49,319 and I can tell you it's very lonely 1563 00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:51,149 because people don't talk to you either. 1564 00:58:51,150 --> 00:58:52,979 They are angry with you and they just 1565 00:58:52,980 --> 00:58:54,699 give you a list of complaints. 1566 00:58:54,700 --> 00:58:56,699 So I enjoyed what you said about the 1567 00:58:56,700 --> 00:58:58,709 approach. If you approach a politician, 1568 00:58:58,710 --> 00:59:00,809 don't wait until you're really 1569 00:59:00,810 --> 00:59:02,159 fuming mad. 1570 00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:05,699 Try and talk to them with information. 1571 00:59:05,700 --> 00:59:07,889 And the other thing is, I don't know why, 1572 00:59:07,890 --> 00:59:09,989 but for me, it's very hard to digest 1573 00:59:09,990 --> 00:59:11,459 all the information I'm supposed to 1574 00:59:11,460 --> 00:59:12,899 absorb as a politician. 1575 00:59:12,900 --> 00:59:14,279 I'm supposed to be informed about 1576 00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:15,449 everything. 1577 00:59:15,450 --> 00:59:17,759 And generally speaking, people get into 1578 00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:19,889 politics because they have a pet 1579 00:59:19,890 --> 00:59:22,169 project they want to fulfill and 1580 00:59:22,170 --> 00:59:23,669 then they don't know nothing about all 1581 00:59:23,670 --> 00:59:25,829 the other things and they rely on 1582 00:59:25,830 --> 00:59:27,519 other people to inform them. 1583 00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:30,479 This is why lobbyists are so powerful. 1584 00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:32,369 But we can all be lobbyists. 1585 00:59:32,370 --> 00:59:34,019 We can all write a powerful letter 1586 00:59:34,020 --> 00:59:37,139 explaining in a factual and informative 1587 00:59:37,140 --> 00:59:39,479 and also concise way 1588 00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,609 how the technology works, how 1589 00:59:41,610 --> 00:59:44,099 this policy will affect different 1590 00:59:44,100 --> 00:59:45,629 factors of what. 1591 00:59:45,630 --> 00:59:48,239 And I maintain that most politicians 1592 00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:49,829 are quite innocent when they vote on 1593 00:59:49,830 --> 00:59:51,989 something, they're just informed 1594 00:59:51,990 --> 00:59:53,819 they don't know what they're doing. 1595 00:59:53,820 --> 00:59:56,399 So please write letters. 1596 00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:57,400 Yeah. 1597 01:00:03,060 --> 01:00:05,339 Edri has actually written a couple 1598 01:00:05,340 --> 01:00:08,099 of very nice booklets 1599 01:00:08,100 --> 01:00:09,989 on the different topics from data 1600 01:00:09,990 --> 01:00:11,189 protection, property rights to net 1601 01:00:11,190 --> 01:00:14,329 neutrality where. 1602 01:00:14,330 --> 01:00:16,999 While we try to put everything in 1603 01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:19,099 a very neat format on 1604 01:00:19,100 --> 01:00:21,289 a very short in a very short 1605 01:00:21,290 --> 01:00:23,899 booklet with every subchapter 1606 01:00:23,900 --> 01:00:25,969 just on one page, in order to 1607 01:00:25,970 --> 01:00:27,859 allow politicians to read this very 1608 01:00:27,860 --> 01:00:30,169 quickly and just grasp 1609 01:00:30,170 --> 01:00:32,899 the main ideas of the topics. 1610 01:00:32,900 --> 01:00:35,719 So this is maybe something as well to do. 1611 01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:37,309 Thank you very much. As we're running out 1612 01:00:37,310 --> 01:00:39,109 of time, I will be closing the question 1613 01:00:39,110 --> 01:00:40,099 and answer session right now. 1614 01:00:40,100 --> 01:00:41,569 I'm sorry, but maybe you can catch the 1615 01:00:41,570 --> 01:00:42,889 speakers after the talk. 1616 01:00:42,890 --> 01:00:44,119 Thank you so much for coming. 1617 01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:45,109 Thank you for your questions. 1618 01:00:45,110 --> 01:00:46,609 And please give another warm round of 1619 01:00:46,610 --> 01:00:48,179 applause to our fabulous speakers. 1620 01:00:48,180 --> 01:00:49,180 Thank you very much.