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If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/568 Thanks! 1 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:11,639 So but the next talk I can't 2 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:13,799 introduce, I'm not fit of that photo 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,139 for that, I call Jacob Appelbaum 4 00:00:16,140 --> 00:00:17,140 on stage. 5 00:00:25,950 --> 00:00:28,499 Hey, I want to 6 00:00:28,500 --> 00:00:30,239 introduce this group by telling a little 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:31,240 story, 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,529 this group of people 9 00:00:34,530 --> 00:00:35,429 was introduced to me. 10 00:00:35,430 --> 00:00:37,529 This is Cage, and they were introduced to 11 00:00:37,530 --> 00:00:39,659 me by a gentleman who came to a talk 12 00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:41,309 that I gave in Switzerland. 13 00:00:41,310 --> 00:00:43,409 And it was a really intense experience 14 00:00:43,410 --> 00:00:45,809 because when I met this gentleman, 15 00:00:45,810 --> 00:00:48,119 he was very clearly the only 16 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:49,109 Muslim in the room. 17 00:00:49,110 --> 00:00:50,219 He had a beard. 18 00:00:50,220 --> 00:00:51,539 He was dressed in such a way that it 19 00:00:51,540 --> 00:00:53,879 signified he was not with the rest 20 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,439 of the Swiss people in this room in the 21 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:56,879 same way visually. 22 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:58,529 And I remember speaking with him and he 23 00:00:58,530 --> 00:01:00,809 said, you know, thank you for the things 24 00:01:00,810 --> 00:01:02,579 that you say about drone attacks. 25 00:01:02,580 --> 00:01:04,289 Thank you for talking about surveillance, 26 00:01:04,290 --> 00:01:06,179 about marginalized communities. 27 00:01:06,180 --> 00:01:08,279 Thank you for doing that, because a 28 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,829 Jewish American person saying that 29 00:01:10,830 --> 00:01:13,289 brings that into a different audience. 30 00:01:13,290 --> 00:01:15,299 It allows other people to hear it. 31 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:16,769 And we want to get the message out to 32 00:01:16,770 --> 00:01:17,969 everyone. 33 00:01:17,970 --> 00:01:20,159 And I remember saying, well, sure, I'd 34 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,379 be very, very happy to keep doing that, 35 00:01:22,380 --> 00:01:24,449 actually. And I think we have to do 36 00:01:24,450 --> 00:01:26,369 that. We have essentially a moral duty to 37 00:01:26,370 --> 00:01:27,719 talk about the things that are taking 38 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:28,829 place. 39 00:01:28,830 --> 00:01:30,299 And he said, well, I want to show you an 40 00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:32,429 email from someone. 41 00:01:32,430 --> 00:01:34,739 It was a spiritual adviser 42 00:01:34,740 --> 00:01:36,869 of mine and he was killed by 43 00:01:36,870 --> 00:01:37,949 a drone. 44 00:01:37,950 --> 00:01:40,079 And he showed me an email of a person who 45 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,239 is known to have been assassinated by 46 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,249 the American government. 47 00:01:44,250 --> 00:01:46,259 Actually, Obama himself is known to have 48 00:01:46,260 --> 00:01:48,329 signed off on killing this person, 49 00:01:48,330 --> 00:01:50,099 and he was assassinated without a trial 50 00:01:50,100 --> 00:01:51,419 and he was a U.S. citizen, though that 51 00:01:51,420 --> 00:01:52,799 doesn't actually matter. 52 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,479 It's important to note that you can 53 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:55,649 figure out who this person is. 54 00:01:55,650 --> 00:01:57,119 There's only a few of them. 55 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:58,709 And I remember what happened. 56 00:01:58,710 --> 00:02:01,049 I actually took a step back 57 00:02:01,050 --> 00:02:02,249 physically. 58 00:02:02,250 --> 00:02:03,809 And then I thought, my God, with 59 00:02:03,810 --> 00:02:05,819 WikiLeaks, with things that have happened 60 00:02:05,820 --> 00:02:07,319 with Julian and myself and with other 61 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,418 people, everyone else takes a step back. 62 00:02:09,419 --> 00:02:11,579 So I took a step forward and 63 00:02:11,580 --> 00:02:13,619 I shook his hand and I apologized. 64 00:02:13,620 --> 00:02:15,209 And we've actually been friends since 65 00:02:15,210 --> 00:02:17,279 then. And so I wanted very 66 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,199 much for these guys multiple times to be 67 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,089 able to come to the Congress and talk 68 00:02:21,090 --> 00:02:22,679 about what they have experienced, because 69 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,779 this is a community who is under threat. 70 00:02:24,780 --> 00:02:26,249 These are people that are doing good 71 00:02:26,250 --> 00:02:28,319 work. And I 72 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,059 think it is important for a pluralistic 73 00:02:30,060 --> 00:02:31,889 society like the one that C.C.C. 74 00:02:31,890 --> 00:02:34,229 represents, in fact, to stand 75 00:02:34,230 --> 00:02:36,149 in solidarity with these guys, not to 76 00:02:36,150 --> 00:02:38,219 give in to fear, to recognize 77 00:02:38,220 --> 00:02:40,079 that we actually are all humans and we 78 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:41,669 have this in common and that we can work 79 00:02:41,670 --> 00:02:43,049 together. And it's not just about 80 00:02:43,050 --> 00:02:45,209 cryptography, it's also about politics. 81 00:02:45,210 --> 00:02:46,649 So some of the people that are talking 82 00:02:46,650 --> 00:02:48,509 today are people who have literally been 83 00:02:48,510 --> 00:02:50,489 in Guantanamo Bay without a trial, 84 00:02:50,490 --> 00:02:52,679 without evidence of basically 85 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:53,969 anything you can imagine in a free 86 00:02:53,970 --> 00:02:56,099 society, having these guys have suffered 87 00:02:56,100 --> 00:02:57,359 things that you would expect to not 88 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,519 happen in such a free society. 89 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,439 And so with that said, I want to 90 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,779 introduce Moazzam Begg, who 91 00:03:03,780 --> 00:03:05,849 was a Guantanamo prisoner, and 92 00:03:05,850 --> 00:03:07,769 he cannot be here today because the 93 00:03:07,770 --> 00:03:09,869 British government, after he was released 94 00:03:09,870 --> 00:03:11,969 from Guantanamo Bay, actually seized his 95 00:03:11,970 --> 00:03:13,919 passport and he cannot travel here from 96 00:03:13,920 --> 00:03:14,969 the United Kingdom. 97 00:03:14,970 --> 00:03:17,489 So we have to use video 98 00:03:17,490 --> 00:03:19,289 in order to actually have him speak 99 00:03:19,290 --> 00:03:20,309 today. 100 00:03:20,310 --> 00:03:22,109 So this is a person who is a victim in 101 00:03:22,110 --> 00:03:24,239 the war on terror and he's also been 102 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,159 jailed. And in fact, this quote on the 103 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,259 shirt, sometimes knowing too 104 00:03:28,260 --> 00:03:30,989 much can be a curse 105 00:03:30,990 --> 00:03:32,999 was a tweet that he made before he was 106 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,139 arrested in the U.K. 107 00:03:34,140 --> 00:03:35,939 again on trumped up charges. 108 00:03:35,940 --> 00:03:37,589 And again, the case collapsed. 109 00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:40,889 So this if we get the video up 110 00:03:40,890 --> 00:03:43,050 here almost. 111 00:03:49,710 --> 00:03:50,759 Well, it'll come in a second. 112 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,319 This person is in 113 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,389 some ways the canonical example of 114 00:03:56,390 --> 00:03:58,099 someone who is completely innocent, and 115 00:03:58,100 --> 00:03:59,539 it isn't to say that if you were guilty 116 00:03:59,540 --> 00:04:01,609 in some way, that it would justify any 117 00:04:01,610 --> 00:04:03,049 of the things that have happened. 118 00:04:03,050 --> 00:04:05,329 But having him speak here is the quantum 119 00:04:05,330 --> 00:04:07,599 hand of the NSA doing this to us. 120 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:08,600 We. 121 00:04:11,510 --> 00:04:13,729 Probably not, but having him be able 122 00:04:13,730 --> 00:04:15,439 to speak here, he should be able to come 123 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:16,489 in person. 124 00:04:16,490 --> 00:04:18,049 There are lots of political prisoners 125 00:04:18,050 --> 00:04:19,789 around the world of different stripes, 126 00:04:19,790 --> 00:04:21,439 and the fact that he cannot travel here 127 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,659 is a fundamental violation of his 128 00:04:23,660 --> 00:04:24,889 human rights. 129 00:04:24,890 --> 00:04:26,839 But nonetheless, the Internet allows us 130 00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:28,339 to give voice to other people. 131 00:04:28,340 --> 00:04:30,380 So in this case, I'm hoping 132 00:04:32,420 --> 00:04:33,420 it's OK. 133 00:04:34,430 --> 00:04:35,430 Just trying to. 134 00:04:41,290 --> 00:04:43,299 There we go. Now, we should be able to 135 00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:45,149 buy time to talk about it. 136 00:04:57,770 --> 00:05:00,229 And least you say 137 00:05:00,230 --> 00:05:02,389 that I think you're right, size 138 00:05:02,390 --> 00:05:03,390 fell in line. 139 00:05:20,380 --> 00:05:21,969 So I have the great pleasure of knowing 140 00:05:21,970 --> 00:05:23,709 my son back very well, and hopefully I'll 141 00:05:23,710 --> 00:05:26,079 talk about him for a couple of seconds 142 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,539 while we get the connection that working 143 00:05:28,540 --> 00:05:29,829 because we got a room full of techies and 144 00:05:29,830 --> 00:05:31,629 of course, we can't get face time 145 00:05:31,630 --> 00:05:33,820 working. So typical, really. 146 00:05:36,010 --> 00:05:37,629 Moiseyev is a very, very close friend of 147 00:05:37,630 --> 00:05:39,489 mine. Very I consider myself very lucky 148 00:05:39,490 --> 00:05:41,589 to have got to know him 149 00:05:41,590 --> 00:05:43,149 since he was released from Guantanamo 150 00:05:43,150 --> 00:05:43,629 Bay. 151 00:05:43,630 --> 00:05:44,630 Here we go. 152 00:05:57,850 --> 00:05:59,259 Are we ready? 153 00:05:59,260 --> 00:06:00,429 We are we are ready. 154 00:06:02,830 --> 00:06:05,349 Well, first of all, it's my absolute 155 00:06:05,350 --> 00:06:07,479 great pleasure to be addressing you 156 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,729 remotely from Birmingham. 157 00:06:09,730 --> 00:06:12,279 Where I live was where I was born 158 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:15,639 to you and Honberg, it's 159 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:17,289 quite bizarre. But actually, the first 160 00:06:17,290 --> 00:06:19,539 time I was ever in any kind of a 161 00:06:19,540 --> 00:06:21,729 video call or video conference 162 00:06:21,730 --> 00:06:23,859 was from the Bagram detention facility, 163 00:06:23,860 --> 00:06:25,299 where I was held by the Americans in 164 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:26,709 2002. 165 00:06:26,710 --> 00:06:29,049 And I had an interrogation 166 00:06:29,050 --> 00:06:31,419 conducted by a 167 00:06:31,420 --> 00:06:32,420 video link. 168 00:06:34,270 --> 00:06:36,759 It might seem implausible 169 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:37,839 now in the sense that 170 00:06:39,010 --> 00:06:41,259 the technology was perhaps 171 00:06:41,260 --> 00:06:43,209 not as advanced as this now that people 172 00:06:43,210 --> 00:06:44,439 can have it in their homes. 173 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,629 But back then, I was shocked 174 00:06:46,630 --> 00:06:48,789 that here in the middle of the Afghan 175 00:06:48,790 --> 00:06:50,949 mountains, the Americans had bought 176 00:06:50,950 --> 00:06:53,259 these fancy computers and 177 00:06:53,260 --> 00:06:54,939 were trying to get me interrogated and 178 00:06:54,940 --> 00:06:57,069 getting me interrogated by members of the 179 00:06:57,070 --> 00:06:59,589 CIA and the FBI right across 180 00:06:59,590 --> 00:07:01,149 the United States to the United States of 181 00:07:01,150 --> 00:07:03,459 America, where they had 182 00:07:03,460 --> 00:07:05,769 deemed me and hundreds of other people 183 00:07:05,770 --> 00:07:08,109 caught up in the war on terror as 184 00:07:08,110 --> 00:07:10,659 enemy aliens, enemy combatants, 185 00:07:10,660 --> 00:07:12,729 unlawful belligerents, any type 186 00:07:12,730 --> 00:07:14,889 of name you want to designate 187 00:07:14,890 --> 00:07:17,019 somebody with other than the ones 188 00:07:17,020 --> 00:07:18,759 that they deserve, i.e. 189 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,529 human beings. 190 00:07:20,530 --> 00:07:21,939 And essentially, this is what has 191 00:07:21,940 --> 00:07:23,919 happened in the war on terror, that 192 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,019 people have been defined according to 193 00:07:26,020 --> 00:07:28,809 codes that we thought 194 00:07:28,810 --> 00:07:31,119 that we'd done away with, that things 195 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,399 like Nuremberg, things 196 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,649 like the United 197 00:07:35,650 --> 00:07:37,719 Nations Convention Against Torture 198 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,639 and Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment 199 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,109 would never happen again. 200 00:07:41,110 --> 00:07:44,229 Yet the reality is in 2015, 201 00:07:44,230 --> 00:07:46,689 Guantanamo is still open. 202 00:07:46,690 --> 00:07:48,609 I was just recently with a friend of mine 203 00:07:48,610 --> 00:07:51,189 called Shaker Aamer, who unbelievably 204 00:07:51,190 --> 00:07:52,989 has been returned to the United Kingdom 205 00:07:52,990 --> 00:07:55,149 after 14 years of 206 00:07:55,150 --> 00:07:57,399 detention without charge or trial, 207 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,559 held on the basis of secret evidence that 208 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:00,669 he could never challenge 209 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:03,459 kept away from his children, which 210 00:08:03,460 --> 00:08:05,619 included a child he'd never seen, 211 00:08:05,620 --> 00:08:07,689 and the others so young that they don't 212 00:08:07,690 --> 00:08:09,579 even remember their father. 213 00:08:09,580 --> 00:08:11,979 Now, one would think 214 00:08:11,980 --> 00:08:13,449 that perhaps this is the sort of thing 215 00:08:13,450 --> 00:08:15,759 that goes on inside deepest, 216 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,919 darkest Africa or Asia or some 217 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:19,389 country where the rule of law simply 218 00:08:19,390 --> 00:08:20,499 doesn't apply. 219 00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:23,109 But this was between two parties 220 00:08:23,110 --> 00:08:24,969 known to the world as the bastions of 221 00:08:24,970 --> 00:08:27,579 democracy and freedom and human rights. 222 00:08:27,580 --> 00:08:29,559 The British government, who are complicit 223 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,329 in keeping him and me and many others 224 00:08:31,330 --> 00:08:33,879 there and the United States of America 225 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,339 that has invaded numerous 226 00:08:36,340 --> 00:08:38,469 countries in the name of protecting 227 00:08:38,470 --> 00:08:39,579 human rights. 228 00:08:39,580 --> 00:08:41,469 If it wasn't so serious, it would be 229 00:08:41,470 --> 00:08:42,459 laughable. 230 00:08:42,460 --> 00:08:43,899 But the reality and the truth of the 231 00:08:43,900 --> 00:08:45,789 matter is that these are some of just 232 00:08:45,790 --> 00:08:48,069 some of the measures that are 233 00:08:48,070 --> 00:08:50,619 available to the governments 234 00:08:50,620 --> 00:08:52,899 against those people, 235 00:08:52,900 --> 00:08:53,919 not just terrorists. 236 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:55,449 We all understand that there's a need to 237 00:08:55,450 --> 00:08:57,579 defend, defend against any 238 00:08:57,580 --> 00:08:59,829 terrorism. But this goes way beyond 239 00:08:59,830 --> 00:09:01,939 that, because nowadays, as you will be 240 00:09:01,940 --> 00:09:04,269 aware, well aware, everybody is called 241 00:09:04,270 --> 00:09:05,229 a terrorist. 242 00:09:05,230 --> 00:09:06,729 If you can see, for example, in the 243 00:09:06,730 --> 00:09:08,919 British parliament, the British prime 244 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,319 minister, David Cameron, actually said 245 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,279 to the opposition leader, that is the 246 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,519 leader of the Labor Party, Jeremy 247 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,679 Corbyn, that you and your party 248 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:19,839 are a threat to national security. 249 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,089 And he even called him a an 250 00:09:22,090 --> 00:09:24,249 apologist, a sympathizer 251 00:09:24,250 --> 00:09:25,569 for terrorism. 252 00:09:25,570 --> 00:09:27,909 So if that can be said to the leader 253 00:09:27,910 --> 00:09:29,859 of the opposition party in the United 254 00:09:29,860 --> 00:09:32,289 Kingdom who is perspectively the 255 00:09:33,340 --> 00:09:35,409 former the future prime minister 256 00:09:35,410 --> 00:09:37,509 of this country, possibly, then 257 00:09:37,510 --> 00:09:39,729 what do the rest of us where 258 00:09:39,730 --> 00:09:41,799 do we fit in all of this and the 259 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:43,029 laws and the measures that have been 260 00:09:43,030 --> 00:09:45,099 meted out against us include a 261 00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:47,409 series on a raft of legislations, 262 00:09:47,410 --> 00:09:49,129 which I just want to explain to. 263 00:09:49,130 --> 00:09:51,189 You have affected 264 00:09:51,190 --> 00:09:53,589 all of us who have been 265 00:09:53,590 --> 00:09:54,789 calling for accountability. 266 00:09:54,790 --> 00:09:56,859 And essentially this is the price of 267 00:09:56,860 --> 00:09:58,749 dissent. The price of dissent isn't 268 00:09:58,750 --> 00:10:00,309 simply that you get vilified in the 269 00:10:00,310 --> 00:10:02,469 press, as we do quite regularly. 270 00:10:02,470 --> 00:10:04,809 The price of dissent means essentially 271 00:10:04,810 --> 00:10:06,909 that you can and will be detained 272 00:10:06,910 --> 00:10:08,439 without charge or trial. 273 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,689 You will be subjected to cruel, inhuman 274 00:10:10,690 --> 00:10:12,099 and degrading treatment. 275 00:10:12,100 --> 00:10:13,329 You will be tortured. 276 00:10:13,330 --> 00:10:15,549 You will be have. 277 00:10:17,170 --> 00:10:19,089 Meaningless communication with your 278 00:10:19,090 --> 00:10:21,309 family. I.e., that letters 279 00:10:21,310 --> 00:10:23,709 that are sent to you by your family 280 00:10:23,710 --> 00:10:25,539 members might get you six months or a 281 00:10:25,540 --> 00:10:27,489 year after they were sent. 282 00:10:27,490 --> 00:10:29,379 It means that you will be detained. 283 00:10:29,380 --> 00:10:31,149 Once you are released, you will be 284 00:10:31,150 --> 00:10:33,519 detained at airports 285 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,709 and entry ports of the country 286 00:10:35,710 --> 00:10:37,779 under the scheduled seven Terrorism Act, 287 00:10:37,780 --> 00:10:39,669 which essentially means you can be held 288 00:10:39,670 --> 00:10:42,009 for up to nine hours at a port of entry 289 00:10:42,010 --> 00:10:43,959 or exit in the country, like what 290 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,509 happened with David Miranda, the partner 291 00:10:46,510 --> 00:10:48,549 of Glenn Greenwald, when he was bringing 292 00:10:48,550 --> 00:10:50,799 over important information which 293 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,869 was seized by the British authorities 294 00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:54,639 under the name of national security, 295 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,949 which, of course, Glenn Greenwald 296 00:10:56,950 --> 00:10:59,019 and David Miranda had nothing to 297 00:10:59,020 --> 00:11:01,119 do with. And essentially what 298 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,519 happens is that these laws and measures, 299 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,859 they may say they are 300 00:11:05,860 --> 00:11:08,079 targeting a minority 301 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:09,609 within a minority, i.e. 302 00:11:09,610 --> 00:11:11,829 Muslims who happen to be 303 00:11:11,830 --> 00:11:13,329 committed to terrorism. 304 00:11:13,330 --> 00:11:15,279 But in fact, it goes on, as you have 305 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,499 seen, to target the Muslim community 306 00:11:17,500 --> 00:11:19,689 and then to target everybody who 307 00:11:19,690 --> 00:11:21,909 dissents. As I said, that you can see 308 00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:23,349 in the case of Jeremy Corbyn and the 309 00:11:23,350 --> 00:11:25,419 Labor Party and anybody else 310 00:11:25,420 --> 00:11:27,579 who dissents that they are 311 00:11:27,580 --> 00:11:29,829 deemed to be terrorists. 312 00:11:29,830 --> 00:11:32,140 One of the latest legislations that the 313 00:11:34,340 --> 00:11:36,039 the home secretary of this country has 314 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,439 said that this 315 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,019 that is culminated after a multitude 316 00:11:41,020 --> 00:11:42,579 of laws that have been passed in this 317 00:11:42,580 --> 00:11:44,739 country, now 318 00:11:44,740 --> 00:11:47,019 says that in the snooper's charter, 319 00:11:47,020 --> 00:11:49,239 under the new investigatory powers 320 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:50,879 bill announced by the 321 00:11:52,330 --> 00:11:54,459 home secretary that the Internet 322 00:11:54,460 --> 00:11:56,889 browsing history of everyone 323 00:11:56,890 --> 00:11:59,019 in the UK, everyone 324 00:11:59,020 --> 00:12:01,149 will be stored for up to a year 325 00:12:01,150 --> 00:12:03,309 by the security services and they 326 00:12:03,310 --> 00:12:05,499 will be given access to 327 00:12:05,500 --> 00:12:08,769 the lists of visited websites 328 00:12:08,770 --> 00:12:10,599 without any warrant. 329 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,519 This essentially means if you were to 330 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,649 translate this into 331 00:12:14,650 --> 00:12:16,929 non technical 332 00:12:16,930 --> 00:12:19,059 terms, that they could enter your 333 00:12:19,060 --> 00:12:21,189 home and take away all of 334 00:12:21,190 --> 00:12:23,529 your belongings and every document 335 00:12:23,530 --> 00:12:25,839 you've ever had without any warrant, 336 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:27,879 without any charge sheet, without any 337 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,549 arrest, without any evidence at all, 338 00:12:30,550 --> 00:12:32,469 and simply keep it in their custody for 339 00:12:32,470 --> 00:12:34,329 up to a year or more. 340 00:12:34,330 --> 00:12:36,849 And you can do anything about it 341 00:12:36,850 --> 00:12:38,440 simply because this exists 342 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,469 in cyberspace. 343 00:12:41,470 --> 00:12:42,699 This is what the government will be 344 00:12:42,700 --> 00:12:44,949 arguing. And this is where we've got to, 345 00:12:44,950 --> 00:12:47,109 because sadly, people 346 00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:48,429 have been silent. 347 00:12:48,430 --> 00:12:49,430 They've remained 348 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,199 at best, silent at worst, giving 349 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,539 approval when they saw these 350 00:12:55,540 --> 00:12:56,540 lists of 351 00:12:57,700 --> 00:12:59,769 law after law being passed that 352 00:12:59,770 --> 00:13:02,049 exclusively applied 353 00:13:02,050 --> 00:13:03,789 to people from the Muslim community. 354 00:13:03,790 --> 00:13:05,859 And just to give you an example, when I 355 00:13:05,860 --> 00:13:07,659 came back from Guantanamo after three 356 00:13:07,660 --> 00:13:09,100 years of detention without trial, 357 00:13:10,570 --> 00:13:12,729 within days my passport 358 00:13:12,730 --> 00:13:14,799 was seized. I was subjected to 359 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:16,599 something called the royal prerogative. 360 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:17,979 And that is for those of you who don't 361 00:13:17,980 --> 00:13:20,169 understand something in our 362 00:13:20,170 --> 00:13:22,239 democracy in Britain, 363 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,449 where the queen decides 364 00:13:25,450 --> 00:13:27,909 with the power invested into 365 00:13:27,910 --> 00:13:30,039 the home secretary that your 366 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,199 passport can be taken away from you from 367 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,929 an unlimited period of time. 368 00:13:34,930 --> 00:13:37,419 And it's based upon secret 369 00:13:37,420 --> 00:13:38,889 evidence, evidence that you could never 370 00:13:38,890 --> 00:13:39,869 challenge in court. 371 00:13:39,870 --> 00:13:42,399 So mine was taken away and passport 372 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:43,809 of others for several years. 373 00:13:43,810 --> 00:13:44,889 I challenged it. 374 00:13:44,890 --> 00:13:47,649 Eventually, I got my passport back, 375 00:13:47,650 --> 00:13:49,869 but not that I traveled to any 376 00:13:49,870 --> 00:13:52,239 country and returned to the UK, 377 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,339 except that I was stopped under 378 00:13:54,340 --> 00:13:56,319 schedule seven of the Terrorism Act, 379 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:57,699 which meant essentially I could be 380 00:13:57,700 --> 00:13:59,919 detained without charge again at 381 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:02,169 the ports of entry and exit in 382 00:14:02,170 --> 00:14:03,760 Britain and. 383 00:14:05,010 --> 00:14:07,559 Even when I was going on visits 384 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:10,109 to give evidence at trials 385 00:14:10,110 --> 00:14:11,999 and tribunals like, for example, the 386 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,249 Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal, where 387 00:14:14,250 --> 00:14:16,619 both Bush and Blair 388 00:14:16,620 --> 00:14:18,689 were charged with crimes against 389 00:14:18,690 --> 00:14:20,939 humanity, whether it was going 390 00:14:20,940 --> 00:14:23,189 to the European Parliament 391 00:14:23,190 --> 00:14:25,259 to give evidence about rendition 392 00:14:25,260 --> 00:14:27,239 programs with the British and the 393 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:28,799 Americans and other countries had been 394 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,409 complicit in the torture and the 395 00:14:31,410 --> 00:14:33,479 false imprisonment of others, or whether 396 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,399 it was going to countries like Pakistan, 397 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,649 Libya, Egypt, Tunisia and 398 00:14:37,650 --> 00:14:39,989 even Syria, where I uncovered 399 00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:42,479 that there was intelligence cooperation 400 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:43,769 between the British government, the 401 00:14:43,770 --> 00:14:45,419 American government and all of the 402 00:14:45,420 --> 00:14:47,489 regimes of those countries 403 00:14:47,490 --> 00:14:49,799 where eventually the Arab Spring 404 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:50,800 erupted. 405 00:14:51,930 --> 00:14:54,059 In all of those cases, being 406 00:14:54,060 --> 00:14:56,039 stopped at ports of entry and exit to the 407 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,079 country was a matter of routine for 408 00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,369 people like me. 409 00:14:59,370 --> 00:15:01,409 And of course, eventually they just 410 00:15:01,410 --> 00:15:02,939 decided that this is too much. 411 00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:04,829 And after a return trip from South 412 00:15:04,830 --> 00:15:07,349 Africa, they decided to take my passport 413 00:15:07,350 --> 00:15:09,989 again away for the second time 414 00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:12,779 in two years without any legal process, 415 00:15:12,780 --> 00:15:14,909 without any explanation, without 416 00:15:14,910 --> 00:15:17,099 any ability to 417 00:15:17,100 --> 00:15:19,289 see the evidence that they're using to 418 00:15:19,290 --> 00:15:20,849 take this away from you. 419 00:15:20,850 --> 00:15:21,929 But it goes beyond that. 420 00:15:21,930 --> 00:15:24,239 I was then again arrested 421 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,519 because of an accusation 422 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,830 of being involved in supplying 423 00:15:30,810 --> 00:15:33,179 finance to the 424 00:15:33,180 --> 00:15:34,979 to people in Syria. 425 00:15:34,980 --> 00:15:36,989 And essentially this was that I provided 426 00:15:36,990 --> 00:15:39,809 a an electricity generator 427 00:15:39,810 --> 00:15:41,699 to the Syrian rebels. 428 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:44,009 And as a result of this, 429 00:15:44,010 --> 00:15:45,809 I was raided. 430 00:15:45,810 --> 00:15:48,599 I was by 150 police officers, 431 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,819 my children scattered throughout several 432 00:15:50,820 --> 00:15:52,319 homes because my home was in 433 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,749 uninhabitable with all the 434 00:15:54,750 --> 00:15:56,009 police around it. 435 00:15:56,010 --> 00:15:58,769 I was taken to a maximum security prison 436 00:15:58,770 --> 00:16:01,379 held there as a category, a prisoner 437 00:16:01,380 --> 00:16:03,479 for seven months, only at the end of 438 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,819 it, to be declared innocent by the very 439 00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:08,009 people who took me in. 440 00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:09,569 But even after that, it didn't end. 441 00:16:09,570 --> 00:16:11,339 During the period of time that I was in 442 00:16:11,340 --> 00:16:13,469 prison, my assets 443 00:16:13,470 --> 00:16:15,179 were frozen under a terrorism asset 444 00:16:15,180 --> 00:16:16,559 freeze cage. 445 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,209 The organization that you will be hearing 446 00:16:18,210 --> 00:16:20,369 much more from had 447 00:16:20,370 --> 00:16:21,419 their accounts closed. 448 00:16:21,420 --> 00:16:23,159 My own accounts were closed, my wife's 449 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:24,569 account was closed. My children, 450 00:16:24,570 --> 00:16:26,459 including my 11 year old son's accounts, 451 00:16:26,460 --> 00:16:28,709 were closed again without any 452 00:16:28,710 --> 00:16:31,169 recourse to justice. 453 00:16:31,170 --> 00:16:33,269 And essentially, I've tried to figure 454 00:16:33,270 --> 00:16:35,699 out in my head why, 455 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:37,739 what did I have to do to these people, to 456 00:16:37,740 --> 00:16:39,869 these governments ever in my 457 00:16:39,870 --> 00:16:42,419 life? I've never been to America, 458 00:16:42,420 --> 00:16:44,429 but America has been to me. 459 00:16:44,430 --> 00:16:46,139 It came and took me from my home in 460 00:16:46,140 --> 00:16:48,209 Pakistan in 2002 and 461 00:16:48,210 --> 00:16:50,309 took me to the world's most notorious 462 00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:51,539 prison. 463 00:16:51,540 --> 00:16:53,789 And since that point, they have never 464 00:16:53,790 --> 00:16:55,979 shown in any way how I've 465 00:16:55,980 --> 00:16:58,229 harmed them, except for one way. 466 00:16:59,810 --> 00:17:01,850 Seeking justice and accountability 467 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,149 and seeking justice and accountability 468 00:17:05,150 --> 00:17:07,399 they think will harm them. 469 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,588 Then I'm going to continue to do that 470 00:17:09,589 --> 00:17:11,838 because nobody is above the law and 471 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:14,029 nobody is beyond accountability. 472 00:17:14,030 --> 00:17:16,729 And essentially, when you have found 473 00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:19,189 time and again that your own government 474 00:17:19,190 --> 00:17:21,649 has been complicit in the abuse, 475 00:17:21,650 --> 00:17:23,719 the physical and mental and psychological 476 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,059 abuse of citizens of its own country 477 00:17:26,060 --> 00:17:28,459 and beyond, if you are able 478 00:17:28,460 --> 00:17:30,709 to do so, you are duty bound 479 00:17:30,710 --> 00:17:33,019 to ensure that you uncover 480 00:17:33,020 --> 00:17:35,239 every truth, though they despise 481 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,489 it. And that is the price of dissent that 482 00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:39,679 we have been paying for the past 10 483 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,769 years. Things have got, as you've seen, 484 00:17:42,770 --> 00:17:44,549 from bad to worse. 485 00:17:44,550 --> 00:17:46,729 But in this process, 486 00:17:46,730 --> 00:17:48,889 though, we have made enemies as far as 487 00:17:48,890 --> 00:17:50,989 some governments are concerned, 488 00:17:50,990 --> 00:17:51,990 as we know. 489 00:17:53,190 --> 00:17:55,349 People are not supposed to be afraid 490 00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:57,959 and frightened of their governments, 491 00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:59,759 governments are supposed to be afraid and 492 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:01,259 frightened of the people. 493 00:18:01,260 --> 00:18:03,449 And in this regard, we have gained so 494 00:18:03,450 --> 00:18:05,969 many allies and supporters 495 00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:08,099 that it's hard to count them anymore. 496 00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:09,719 Cage has gone on from being just an 497 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,459 organization that's solely used to 498 00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:13,619 campaign for the rights of Guantanamo 499 00:18:13,620 --> 00:18:15,749 prisoners to an organization now 500 00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:17,039 that stands up for the rights of 501 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,019 everyone. And when I say everyone, 502 00:18:19,020 --> 00:18:21,449 everyone that has been designated 503 00:18:21,450 --> 00:18:23,729 in the so-called war on terror as 504 00:18:23,730 --> 00:18:25,919 some sort of an extremist without any 505 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,609 legal process at all. 506 00:18:28,860 --> 00:18:30,359 So essentially now, 507 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:32,730 just before I finish, 508 00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:35,640 what's really important is that. 509 00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:39,929 We are in a new era and in an era 510 00:18:39,930 --> 00:18:43,289 where most of us don't even understand 511 00:18:43,290 --> 00:18:45,419 where we're going to fit in all of this, 512 00:18:45,420 --> 00:18:46,919 we don't know what will happen tomorrow. 513 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,139 We don't know with the technology 514 00:18:49,140 --> 00:18:51,429 that is moving on 515 00:18:51,430 --> 00:18:53,429 as we speak. 516 00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:55,229 We don't know what it's going to take us. 517 00:18:55,230 --> 00:18:56,549 But something I just want to give you an 518 00:18:56,550 --> 00:18:58,649 idea just to recognize for all of 519 00:18:58,650 --> 00:19:00,179 you. And I think it's very relevant to 520 00:19:00,180 --> 00:19:02,759 you. During one of my interrogations 521 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:04,559 in the Bagram detention facility, which 522 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,809 is in Afghanistan, it was 523 00:19:06,810 --> 00:19:09,149 a place set up by the Americans shortly 524 00:19:09,150 --> 00:19:12,779 after they invaded Afghanistan in 2002. 525 00:19:12,780 --> 00:19:15,749 I was asked by the CIA 526 00:19:15,750 --> 00:19:18,239 for a password for a 527 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,459 an encryption program that 528 00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:22,529 I was using, and at that time it 529 00:19:22,530 --> 00:19:24,689 was called PGP pretty good 530 00:19:24,690 --> 00:19:26,729 private privacy. 531 00:19:26,730 --> 00:19:27,629 I was new in it. 532 00:19:27,630 --> 00:19:30,749 I hadn't understood its detailed 533 00:19:30,750 --> 00:19:32,249 operational system. 534 00:19:32,250 --> 00:19:33,749 It is something that I thought I was 535 00:19:33,750 --> 00:19:35,819 introduced to and I used it 536 00:19:35,820 --> 00:19:36,899 a few times. 537 00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:38,999 The police in Britain, while I was in 538 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,429 the Bagram detention facility, raided 539 00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:44,319 my home and they took my computer. 540 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,379 They passed on that information to the 541 00:19:46,380 --> 00:19:47,700 Americans in Bagram. 542 00:19:48,910 --> 00:19:51,249 In Bagram, I was approached 543 00:19:51,250 --> 00:19:53,409 by the CIA and the FBI 544 00:19:53,410 --> 00:19:55,509 and told that if you don't give us this 545 00:19:55,510 --> 00:19:57,940 passport password, then. 546 00:20:00,010 --> 00:20:02,499 Some terrible things may happen to you 547 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:04,179 and let me just explain to you what sort 548 00:20:04,180 --> 00:20:05,559 of things were happening in background. 549 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,899 So you've got you've got a flavor 550 00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:10,359 of the type of place it was 551 00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:12,429 in Bagram. I came across the 552 00:20:12,430 --> 00:20:14,289 case of a man called Ibn al-Sheikh al 553 00:20:14,290 --> 00:20:16,569 Libi. And it's so important because 554 00:20:16,570 --> 00:20:20,019 that's the reason you'll find in a moment 555 00:20:20,020 --> 00:20:22,419 why we are where we are today. 556 00:20:22,420 --> 00:20:24,219 The CIA said to me, if you don't 557 00:20:24,220 --> 00:20:26,319 cooperate with us, we will send you to 558 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,659 Egypt, just like we did to Abdul Sheik 559 00:20:28,660 --> 00:20:30,819 al Libi, who they claimed was a senior 560 00:20:30,820 --> 00:20:32,679 member of al-Qaida. 561 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,419 They had, in fact, sent him to Egypt. 562 00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:36,489 In Egypt, he was tortured under 563 00:20:36,490 --> 00:20:38,919 the intelligence chief of 564 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,139 Hosni Mubarak, the president, into 565 00:20:41,140 --> 00:20:43,299 giving a false confession. 566 00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:44,919 That false confession was that he was a 567 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:45,849 member of al-Qaida. 568 00:20:45,850 --> 00:20:48,279 The first falsity, the second falsity 569 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,199 is that they were working with Saddam 570 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:51,909 Hussein on obtaining weapons of mass 571 00:20:51,910 --> 00:20:53,049 destruction. 572 00:20:53,050 --> 00:20:55,240 This information was taken by 573 00:20:56,260 --> 00:20:58,509 Colin Powell, who was the U.S. 574 00:20:58,510 --> 00:21:00,429 secretary of state at the time, presented 575 00:21:00,430 --> 00:21:02,859 to the United Nations Security Council as 576 00:21:02,860 --> 00:21:05,199 credible evidence to invade Iraq. 577 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,389 And that's exactly what they did. 578 00:21:07,390 --> 00:21:09,879 The rest, as we say, is history. 579 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,129 So it was during this period that 580 00:21:12,130 --> 00:21:13,689 they'd asked me and told me that if you 581 00:21:13,690 --> 00:21:15,789 don't cooperate with us, we will send 582 00:21:15,790 --> 00:21:18,249 you either to Egypt or to Syria, 583 00:21:18,250 --> 00:21:19,569 as we had done with it. 584 00:21:19,570 --> 00:21:21,969 Now, Sheikh al Libi and it all began 585 00:21:21,970 --> 00:21:24,099 with looking at the documentation 586 00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:26,169 on the laptop of mine that they had 587 00:21:26,170 --> 00:21:28,779 seized. They included innocent pictures 588 00:21:28,780 --> 00:21:30,939 of my family, which they waved in front 589 00:21:30,940 --> 00:21:32,319 of me and said that if you do not 590 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,599 cooperate with us, what 591 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,519 do you think will happen to your 592 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,559 children? Do you think you will ever see 593 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:39,669 them again? 594 00:21:39,670 --> 00:21:41,169 And while they were doing that, they were 595 00:21:41,170 --> 00:21:44,469 the sounds of a woman screaming and 596 00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:46,629 in the cage next door that I was 597 00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:48,009 led to believe was my wife being 598 00:21:48,010 --> 00:21:49,010 tortured. 599 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,239 And so, you see, this is 600 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,369 why it's so important that 601 00:21:54,370 --> 00:21:56,439 the encryption programs, the various 602 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,569 ones that cage ourselves, we are trying 603 00:21:58,570 --> 00:22:00,729 now to learn to use and 604 00:22:00,730 --> 00:22:02,919 to implement in our daily lives isn't 605 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:04,959 because we have anything to hide. 606 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,119 It's because we are and 607 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:09,249 we have experience of 608 00:22:09,250 --> 00:22:11,739 those people who are 609 00:22:11,740 --> 00:22:13,839 now mastering in the arts of torture and 610 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,539 abuse, that whatever information 611 00:22:16,540 --> 00:22:19,149 they use and they get hold of, 612 00:22:19,150 --> 00:22:21,099 they will use it against you even if it 613 00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:22,929 was the most innocent thing. 614 00:22:22,930 --> 00:22:24,549 I remember there was a picture of the 615 00:22:24,550 --> 00:22:26,619 pope that had been 616 00:22:26,620 --> 00:22:27,820 cached in my memory 617 00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:31,419 that had been from a BBC website. 618 00:22:31,420 --> 00:22:32,979 And when they seized my laptop, they 619 00:22:32,980 --> 00:22:34,149 said, what have you got a picture of the 620 00:22:34,150 --> 00:22:35,289 pope here? 621 00:22:35,290 --> 00:22:37,029 Is this because you're planning some 622 00:22:37,030 --> 00:22:38,519 nefarious activity against him? 623 00:22:39,550 --> 00:22:41,649 And so that 624 00:22:41,650 --> 00:22:44,199 in the end turned out to be 625 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,329 one of the ludicrous reasons 626 00:22:46,330 --> 00:22:48,489 why I remained in Guantanamo for 627 00:22:48,490 --> 00:22:49,179 all of those periods. 628 00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:51,579 But finally, I'd like to thank you, 629 00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:53,289 all of you, for listening, for taking the 630 00:22:53,290 --> 00:22:55,269 time to listen to the work of Cage and 631 00:22:55,270 --> 00:22:57,009 for supporting us and giving me the 632 00:22:57,010 --> 00:22:59,319 opportunity to explain what 633 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,299 price we've had to pay for this. 634 00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:02,300 Thank you very much. 635 00:23:31,570 --> 00:23:34,599 Excellent. So that was my Izembek 636 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,459 very good friend of mine who actually 637 00:23:36,460 --> 00:23:38,409 introduced me to my wife, so I've got a 638 00:23:38,410 --> 00:23:39,410 lot to thank him for. 639 00:23:42,250 --> 00:23:44,199 My name's Kerry Bullivant and I'm from 640 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:45,309 Cage as well. 641 00:23:45,310 --> 00:23:47,859 I got involved with Cage after being held 642 00:23:47,860 --> 00:23:50,049 in the UK in Britain under 643 00:23:50,050 --> 00:23:52,269 secret evidence and secret trial for two 644 00:23:52,270 --> 00:23:54,519 and a half years, six months of that in 645 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,679 Belmarsh high security 646 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:57,680 prison. 647 00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,849 The case against me was secret. 648 00:23:59,850 --> 00:24:01,809 I was never given any reason. 649 00:24:01,810 --> 00:24:03,519 And even though now I've been found 650 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,829 innocent to this day, I still 651 00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:08,199 don't know what it was I was even accused 652 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:09,319 of in the first place. 653 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,439 That meant I had spent two years 654 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,599 under house arrest and six months 655 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,109 in a high security prison. 656 00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:16,689 I'm sorry, I can't wait for the flights 657 00:24:16,690 --> 00:24:18,519 because my son went on for a little bit 658 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,440 longer and we're very pushed for time. 659 00:24:21,490 --> 00:24:23,019 Jake will tell me off if we run over. 660 00:24:24,610 --> 00:24:25,610 So 661 00:24:26,950 --> 00:24:29,199 after basically a year and a half 662 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,239 of living under a control order, which is 663 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,159 a form of house arrest where you're not 664 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,569 allowed to leave the house except for a 665 00:24:34,570 --> 00:24:36,549 couple of hours a day, you have to phone 666 00:24:36,550 --> 00:24:37,899 the police before you leave. 667 00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:39,009 You have to phone the police. When you 668 00:24:39,010 --> 00:24:41,739 return, you have to 669 00:24:41,740 --> 00:24:44,559 have a tag on your ankle. 670 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,599 Basically the sorts of stuff that you 671 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,699 hear about in countries like Burma, 672 00:24:50,170 --> 00:24:52,299 after a year and a half of that, I'd had 673 00:24:52,300 --> 00:24:54,519 enough. I couldn't take it anymore. 674 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,349 And I just decided that the best thing 675 00:24:56,350 --> 00:24:58,479 for me was to abscond 676 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,879 to to make a run for it and 677 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,289 leave the country. 678 00:25:02,290 --> 00:25:04,359 And are you going to get it fixed 679 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,719 to to leave 680 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,239 and to go on the run and to go into 681 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:11,240 hiding? 682 00:25:12,130 --> 00:25:13,869 You can see up there a lovely wanted 683 00:25:13,870 --> 00:25:15,519 picture. Have you seen this man? 684 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,649 That's me when I had hair. 685 00:25:17,650 --> 00:25:19,809 And Innovest, I don't 686 00:25:19,810 --> 00:25:21,479 know why that's there. 687 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,229 There are some people in this world that 688 00:25:23,230 --> 00:25:24,669 weren't built for vests and I'm one of 689 00:25:24,670 --> 00:25:25,670 them. 690 00:25:26,410 --> 00:25:28,509 So having 691 00:25:28,510 --> 00:25:30,609 spent about six 692 00:25:30,610 --> 00:25:33,219 weeks on the run, it was major 693 00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:35,289 breaking news at the time you 694 00:25:35,290 --> 00:25:37,359 had the the 695 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,339 independent review of anti-terrorism 696 00:25:39,340 --> 00:25:41,169 legislation. Lord Carlile saying these 697 00:25:41,170 --> 00:25:42,109 are dangerous people. 698 00:25:42,110 --> 00:25:44,139 We have solid intelligence about them, 699 00:25:44,140 --> 00:25:45,819 but we can't tell you what it is because 700 00:25:45,820 --> 00:25:46,959 it's a secret. 701 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,339 And you can check that up. 702 00:25:48,340 --> 00:25:50,139 It's in the sun. He says we have solid 703 00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:52,099 intelligence. He'll come up later. 704 00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:53,100 We move along. 705 00:25:55,500 --> 00:25:57,819 I was as I said, I was found innocent. 706 00:25:57,820 --> 00:26:00,159 And it was because of that experience, 707 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,479 because of going through it, because of 708 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,879 feeling it on a first hand basis. 709 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,219 Myself, though, I came 710 00:26:06,220 --> 00:26:07,899 to be working with Cage. 711 00:26:07,900 --> 00:26:09,339 But why Cage? Why not any other 712 00:26:09,340 --> 00:26:10,329 organizations? 713 00:26:10,330 --> 00:26:11,559 There are there are plenty of human 714 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,179 rights groups out there. 715 00:26:13,180 --> 00:26:15,099 And my mother, who had always been my 716 00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:16,449 biggest supporter throughout this whole 717 00:26:16,450 --> 00:26:18,609 period where I was held 718 00:26:18,610 --> 00:26:21,139 on the secret evidence and secret trial, 719 00:26:21,140 --> 00:26:22,539 she had always believed in me. 720 00:26:22,540 --> 00:26:24,429 And when I was in prison, she'd gone to 721 00:26:24,430 --> 00:26:26,559 these large human rights organizations, 722 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,109 some of which are represented here. 723 00:26:29,110 --> 00:26:31,209 And unfortunately, none of them had 724 00:26:31,210 --> 00:26:33,519 been willing to take on my case, even 725 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:34,689 though there was secret evidence and 726 00:26:34,690 --> 00:26:36,999 clear breaches of due process 727 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,769 and the norms of justice that we all 728 00:26:38,770 --> 00:26:40,299 understand. 729 00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:42,549 None of these major human rights 730 00:26:42,550 --> 00:26:44,409 organizations were willing to touch it 731 00:26:44,410 --> 00:26:45,519 because it was terrorism. 732 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,559 And, you know, these cases often look 733 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:48,560 quite bad. 734 00:26:49,660 --> 00:26:51,729 So it was after I came out that I found 735 00:26:51,730 --> 00:26:53,409 out that the only people that were taking 736 00:26:53,410 --> 00:26:54,829 on these cases, the only people that were 737 00:26:54,830 --> 00:26:56,949 speaking out on these cases of 738 00:26:56,950 --> 00:26:59,199 due process were cage. 739 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,029 They took on cases based on principle, 740 00:27:01,030 --> 00:27:02,409 not on whether they were trending. 741 00:27:02,410 --> 00:27:04,659 You'd be the cause celeb 742 00:27:04,660 --> 00:27:06,849 for defending them, not because 743 00:27:06,850 --> 00:27:09,069 they'd get praise in the media and 744 00:27:09,070 --> 00:27:10,209 loaded about. 745 00:27:10,210 --> 00:27:13,089 In fact, Cage actively took cases 746 00:27:13,090 --> 00:27:15,459 that were unpopular because 747 00:27:15,460 --> 00:27:18,579 those are the ones that we need the most. 748 00:27:18,580 --> 00:27:20,769 It's fundamental if we 749 00:27:20,770 --> 00:27:22,929 do not protect the rights of everybody, 750 00:27:22,930 --> 00:27:24,579 then really we don't have the rights for 751 00:27:24,580 --> 00:27:25,580 anybody. 752 00:27:34,410 --> 00:27:36,509 Cage began as a website back in 753 00:27:36,510 --> 00:27:39,509 those days, it was Cageprisoners dot com 754 00:27:39,510 --> 00:27:41,039 and there's a beautiful quote there from 755 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,539 one of our directors talking about the 756 00:27:42,540 --> 00:27:44,699 importance of the Internet cage 757 00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:46,919 existed to bypass the mainstream 758 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,539 media that weren't talking about what was 759 00:27:48,540 --> 00:27:50,519 happening in Guantanamo Bay, to get 760 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,349 information out there about the people 761 00:27:52,350 --> 00:27:54,869 who were held captive and to 762 00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:57,169 give the power back to the 763 00:27:57,170 --> 00:27:59,669 the masses and to change the narrative 764 00:27:59,670 --> 00:28:00,989 on these cases. 765 00:28:00,990 --> 00:28:02,489 We've seen that from Guantanamo Bay, 766 00:28:02,490 --> 00:28:04,709 especially that the vast, 767 00:28:04,710 --> 00:28:06,919 vast majority, I think, is home 768 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,579 to something like 97 percent of the 769 00:28:08,580 --> 00:28:10,979 people that have been held in Guantanamo 770 00:28:10,980 --> 00:28:13,439 Bay have been released without charge, 771 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:14,440 without trial. 772 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:17,549 Moazzam Begg among them, shocking Ahmed, 773 00:28:17,550 --> 00:28:19,619 14 years, who I'll be 774 00:28:19,620 --> 00:28:21,169 talking about a bit later on as well. 775 00:28:22,620 --> 00:28:25,049 And so what we see 776 00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:27,809 is that Muslims in the suspect community 777 00:28:27,810 --> 00:28:30,089 are the canaries in the mine. 778 00:28:30,090 --> 00:28:32,309 What happens to them and how 779 00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:34,019 things are tested out on them? 780 00:28:34,020 --> 00:28:35,999 Because society at the moment, because of 781 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,189 fear of terrorism, are more 782 00:28:38,190 --> 00:28:39,989 likely to be accepting of these things 783 00:28:39,990 --> 00:28:42,149 when it's posed as a terrorism 784 00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:43,889 issue. And the issue is not going to be 785 00:28:43,890 --> 00:28:45,159 affecting everybody. 786 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,099 It's just these these funny brown folk 787 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:48,100 with big beards. 788 00:28:49,230 --> 00:28:51,479 So when we see what happens 789 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,609 to them, inevitably 790 00:28:53,610 --> 00:28:56,519 it happens to the rest of society 791 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,319 starting off with activists and 792 00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:59,669 dissidents. 793 00:28:59,670 --> 00:29:01,799 The clear examples of that, David 794 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,679 Miranda, the Moazzam Begg mentioned 795 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,049 the lawyers for both 796 00:29:07,050 --> 00:29:09,419 Julian Assange and Edward Snowden, all 797 00:29:09,420 --> 00:29:11,069 have been affected and held under 798 00:29:11,070 --> 00:29:13,169 counter-terrorism legislation in 799 00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:14,170 the UK. 800 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,429 And it's very important that I bring 801 00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:18,809 up those examples. 802 00:29:18,810 --> 00:29:21,239 I cite those examples because journalists 803 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:22,679 and lawyers are meant to be two very 804 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,139 protected roles in our society 805 00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:27,389 to roles that are meant to hold people 806 00:29:27,390 --> 00:29:28,289 to account. 807 00:29:28,290 --> 00:29:29,879 And when you start trying to put fear 808 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,069 into them, then this is a very, very 809 00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:34,799 dangerous step down a slippery road. 810 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,839 The BBC, a BBC journalist, just recently 811 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,089 had his laptop taken off him 812 00:29:39,090 --> 00:29:40,859 again under anti-terror legislation. 813 00:29:40,860 --> 00:29:42,239 We've seen The Guardian affected by this 814 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,240 as well. 815 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,889 So what we see is that 816 00:29:46,890 --> 00:29:49,199 after 14 years of the war on terror, 817 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,269 are we any safer if we look around 818 00:29:51,270 --> 00:29:54,029 the world now and compare it to 2001? 819 00:29:54,030 --> 00:29:55,719 Is there less terrorism? 820 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,779 Are we suddenly sleeping better in 821 00:29:57,780 --> 00:29:59,069 our beds? 822 00:29:59,070 --> 00:30:00,119 I don't think so. 823 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,949 I think that that's a fairly obvious 824 00:30:01,950 --> 00:30:04,019 fact. I think if you look at 825 00:30:04,020 --> 00:30:06,179 the empirical evidence, 826 00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:07,589 the biggest things that have caused 827 00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:09,719 people to go towards groups like al Qaeda 828 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,909 and ISIS are what Guantanamo 829 00:30:11,910 --> 00:30:14,639 Bay, drone strikes, illegal detention, 830 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,219 all of these things that scream 831 00:30:17,220 --> 00:30:18,689 of hypocrisy. 832 00:30:18,690 --> 00:30:20,639 We try to claim the moral high ground and 833 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,049 say we're the West and we defend 834 00:30:22,050 --> 00:30:24,359 liberties and our 835 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,129 actions speak otherwise. 836 00:30:26,130 --> 00:30:28,109 And that's why Cage is necessary to hold 837 00:30:28,110 --> 00:30:30,119 the powerful to account and to speak 838 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:31,120 truth to power. 839 00:30:33,590 --> 00:30:35,719 The MacNicol, this is a 840 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,849 800 year old document that is 841 00:30:37,850 --> 00:30:39,799 meant to be the basis and foundation of 842 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,049 law in Britain and 843 00:30:42,050 --> 00:30:43,579 in America is actually part of the 844 00:30:43,580 --> 00:30:45,139 constitution in America and it is 845 00:30:45,140 --> 00:30:46,579 enshrined there. 846 00:30:46,580 --> 00:30:49,039 Not so in the UK, though, 847 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,649 and we just turned 800 848 00:30:51,650 --> 00:30:54,169 years old. And this is the main obstacle 849 00:30:54,170 --> 00:30:55,850 of it that is still relevant today 850 00:30:57,410 --> 00:30:58,669 in Britain especially. 851 00:30:58,670 --> 00:31:00,859 I'll try not to focus too 852 00:31:00,860 --> 00:31:02,089 much on Britain. I know we have a very 853 00:31:02,090 --> 00:31:03,709 international audience, but the focus 854 00:31:03,710 --> 00:31:05,899 right now is on British Muslims 855 00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:08,029 accepting British values. 856 00:31:08,030 --> 00:31:10,159 The British values are 857 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,259 this ideal set that 858 00:31:12,260 --> 00:31:13,819 we have to live by. 859 00:31:13,820 --> 00:31:15,379 And at the same time that we're being 860 00:31:15,380 --> 00:31:17,149 told as Muslims in Britain that we're not 861 00:31:17,150 --> 00:31:18,440 British enough, that we're not 862 00:31:20,030 --> 00:31:21,859 we're not following the 863 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,000 sick. 864 00:31:24,610 --> 00:31:26,749 A government 865 00:31:26,750 --> 00:31:29,179 line enough they are throwing 866 00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:30,619 these things out of the window 867 00:31:32,540 --> 00:31:34,189 from even just from what you heard from 868 00:31:34,190 --> 00:31:35,119 them, from what I've been telling you 869 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:36,919 about secret courts and secret trials, 870 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,929 you can see that this has gone completely 871 00:31:38,930 --> 00:31:41,149 out of the window, which leads us to the 872 00:31:41,150 --> 00:31:43,339 core processes that Cage 873 00:31:43,340 --> 00:31:45,769 seeks to uphold such occasions 874 00:31:45,770 --> 00:31:47,419 by upholding due process. 875 00:31:47,420 --> 00:31:49,519 As I said before, everybody has 876 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:50,749 the right to a fair trial. 877 00:31:50,750 --> 00:31:52,399 Everybody has the right to know what the 878 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,379 accusations are against them. 879 00:31:54,380 --> 00:31:56,779 We need to work towards ending this cycle 880 00:31:56,780 --> 00:31:58,909 of violence and breaking it down. 881 00:31:58,910 --> 00:32:00,949 We didn't get to peace in Northern 882 00:32:00,950 --> 00:32:03,349 Ireland by more bombs and more killing. 883 00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:04,939 We got to peace in Northern Ireland by 884 00:32:04,940 --> 00:32:07,249 negotiation and trying to provide 885 00:32:07,250 --> 00:32:08,749 justice for all sides. 886 00:32:08,750 --> 00:32:10,669 And the final thing is empowerment, 887 00:32:10,670 --> 00:32:12,769 empowerment by giving a voice to the 888 00:32:12,770 --> 00:32:14,869 voiceless, giving a voice to people who 889 00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:16,969 for so long have not 890 00:32:16,970 --> 00:32:18,799 been given the opportunity to speak out. 891 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,009 So what has been the price of dissent for 892 00:32:23,010 --> 00:32:23,969 Cage? 893 00:32:23,970 --> 00:32:26,099 What have we paid as a price for 894 00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:27,599 it? This is a shot. 895 00:32:29,100 --> 00:32:31,379 Some of the guys that were coming with us 896 00:32:31,380 --> 00:32:32,639 to this conference. 897 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,679 This is from three days ago. 898 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,209 This was on their backs when they when 899 00:32:36,210 --> 00:32:38,099 they got to to 900 00:32:39,150 --> 00:32:41,369 Hamburg, they were stopped by the German 901 00:32:41,370 --> 00:32:43,829 authorities for over three hours, 902 00:32:43,830 --> 00:32:45,509 questioned about this conference, why 903 00:32:45,510 --> 00:32:46,679 they were coming here, what they were 904 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,059 planning to do here. 905 00:32:48,060 --> 00:32:49,559 And the German authorities said, we're 906 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,059 just doing this because the Brits told us 907 00:32:51,060 --> 00:32:53,579 to. We we we we 908 00:32:53,580 --> 00:32:55,679 checked out what they saw, what they say 909 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,989 do not load stamp 910 00:32:57,990 --> 00:33:00,029 means. It basically means that the Brits 911 00:33:00,030 --> 00:33:01,289 weren't sure whether they were going to 912 00:33:01,290 --> 00:33:03,479 even let us come to this conference 913 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,279 and they put this on the backs to say put 914 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,049 it on at the last moment when we've 915 00:33:07,050 --> 00:33:09,059 decided if we're going to let them go. 916 00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:12,779 I think that even the fact that 917 00:33:12,780 --> 00:33:14,999 they tried to block a simple 918 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,129 communication like this says a lot 919 00:33:17,130 --> 00:33:19,119 about the price of descent dissent 920 00:33:20,700 --> 00:33:21,700 on. 921 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,839 So, Kate, you've had their 922 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,929 bank accounts closed since early 2014. 923 00:33:27,930 --> 00:33:29,489 That was when my son had his accounts 924 00:33:29,490 --> 00:33:31,079 closed. I had my accounts closed. 925 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:32,429 His whole family had their accounts 926 00:33:32,430 --> 00:33:33,329 closed. 927 00:33:33,330 --> 00:33:34,769 To this day, I still don't have a bank 928 00:33:34,770 --> 00:33:36,569 account. I have to rely on bank accounts 929 00:33:36,570 --> 00:33:38,039 of my friends and family. 930 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,419 And that's fine. 931 00:33:39,420 --> 00:33:40,859 That's good. We're in great company with 932 00:33:40,860 --> 00:33:42,479 WikiLeaks there who have also had their 933 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,459 bank accounts closed to all who have had 934 00:33:44,460 --> 00:33:45,569 days affected. 935 00:33:45,570 --> 00:33:46,739 And we're happy for that. 936 00:33:53,450 --> 00:33:55,159 I want to make something very, very clear 937 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,169 here, we're not moaning about the price 938 00:33:57,170 --> 00:33:58,549 that we pay for to send all of these 939 00:33:58,550 --> 00:34:00,499 things away, we're going to be mentioning 940 00:34:00,500 --> 00:34:02,689 here are not something that we didn't 941 00:34:02,690 --> 00:34:04,229 know about going into this. 942 00:34:04,230 --> 00:34:06,079 You can't step up and speak out on 943 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,448 account people in power without having 944 00:34:08,449 --> 00:34:10,669 some some some come back on it. 945 00:34:10,670 --> 00:34:12,499 So this is about telling you about it, 946 00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:14,299 but also saying that that's fine, that's 947 00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:16,229 not a problem. And we're up for it. 948 00:34:16,230 --> 00:34:17,299 They want to bring it. 949 00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:18,300 Come on. 950 00:34:26,330 --> 00:34:28,629 Just some of the major funders of Cage 951 00:34:28,630 --> 00:34:31,119 were main charities, 952 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,729 the Rodeck Foundation, the 953 00:34:33,730 --> 00:34:35,859 thank you very much, the Rodek Foundation 954 00:34:35,860 --> 00:34:38,408 and the Round Shoe Trust for parcels 955 00:34:38,409 --> 00:34:40,388 used to support Cage and the Charity 956 00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:42,939 Commission came in and said, 957 00:34:42,940 --> 00:34:45,249 you guys can't fund them anymore. 958 00:34:45,250 --> 00:34:47,289 And it's meant to be an independent 959 00:34:47,290 --> 00:34:48,968 organization. So we took them to court 960 00:34:48,969 --> 00:34:50,169 over this and we said, look, you're 961 00:34:50,170 --> 00:34:51,099 independent. 962 00:34:51,100 --> 00:34:52,238 These are charities. 963 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,039 And their objective is to fund people who 964 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,649 support freedom of speech 965 00:34:56,650 --> 00:34:58,569 and you're trying to block them. 966 00:34:58,570 --> 00:35:01,299 And that's not within your remit. 967 00:35:01,300 --> 00:35:03,969 As we got into the Coupal, we got 968 00:35:03,970 --> 00:35:06,039 access to a lot of the emails and 969 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:07,869 all of their emails regarding Cage. 970 00:35:07,870 --> 00:35:09,979 And we found out that the 971 00:35:09,980 --> 00:35:11,619 the head of the of the charity 972 00:35:11,620 --> 00:35:13,479 commission, William Shawcross, Sir 973 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,099 William Shawcross, who will again come up 974 00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:17,409 later, was told 975 00:35:17,410 --> 00:35:19,479 by the American intelligence services 976 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,999 and in his own words, in his own emails 977 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,799 that they had to put pressure on and try 978 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,479 and stop our funding. 979 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,009 And this was reported in The Guardian as 980 00:35:27,010 --> 00:35:28,010 well. 981 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,239 There's been a barrage of attacks from 982 00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:32,709 the right wing. And I'll be honest, when 983 00:35:32,710 --> 00:35:34,089 you're speaking out against the military 984 00:35:34,090 --> 00:35:35,589 industrial complex, you expect the 985 00:35:35,590 --> 00:35:37,839 Murdoch media to come after you 986 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,729 with their knives sharpened. 987 00:35:39,730 --> 00:35:42,009 But it's gone beyond the Murdoch media. 988 00:35:42,010 --> 00:35:44,259 We have the prime minister 989 00:35:44,260 --> 00:35:46,389 of Britain mentioning it's 990 00:35:46,390 --> 00:35:48,459 directly in speeches, telling 991 00:35:48,460 --> 00:35:50,859 the largest student union body 992 00:35:50,860 --> 00:35:52,449 that they shouldn't have anything to do 993 00:35:52,450 --> 00:35:53,739 with this and they should be ashamed of 994 00:35:53,740 --> 00:35:55,629 themselves for getting involved with 995 00:35:55,630 --> 00:35:57,669 Cage. This is the level to which it's 996 00:35:57,670 --> 00:35:59,769 gone to right at the very top. 997 00:35:59,770 --> 00:36:00,669 They're still coming for us. 998 00:36:00,670 --> 00:36:02,289 We've got a little rogues gallery here 999 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,039 of middle aged white men that don't like 1000 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,449 Katch. 1001 00:36:07,450 --> 00:36:09,519 So starting there with the leader, 1002 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:10,689 we've got David Cameron. 1003 00:36:10,690 --> 00:36:12,969 The PM does not stand for pick 1004 00:36:12,970 --> 00:36:13,970 molester. 1005 00:36:14,860 --> 00:36:16,300 It's prime minister. 1006 00:36:21,490 --> 00:36:23,769 William William Shawcross, 1007 00:36:23,770 --> 00:36:25,269 who, as I said, was the head of the 1008 00:36:25,270 --> 00:36:26,349 charity commission. 1009 00:36:26,350 --> 00:36:27,549 He's also the queen's official 1010 00:36:27,550 --> 00:36:28,569 biographer. 1011 00:36:28,570 --> 00:36:30,729 So we see here that at the heart of the 1012 00:36:30,730 --> 00:36:32,859 establishment, a strong neocon 1013 00:36:32,860 --> 00:36:35,199 thread of people who have taken it upon 1014 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,539 themselves to attack 1015 00:36:37,540 --> 00:36:39,729 Cage and in some cases, myself 1016 00:36:39,730 --> 00:36:41,319 personally. Lord Carlile, he was the 1017 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,479 independent reviewer of terrorism 1018 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,699 who said that their secret evidence 1019 00:36:45,700 --> 00:36:47,889 was solid against me personally. 1020 00:36:49,090 --> 00:36:51,219 However, when a judge finally got to see 1021 00:36:51,220 --> 00:36:52,959 that evidence after two and a half years, 1022 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,309 he said they were never even reasonable 1023 00:36:54,310 --> 00:36:55,749 grounds for suspicion. 1024 00:36:55,750 --> 00:36:57,549 I want to clarify that there were never 1025 00:36:57,550 --> 00:36:59,289 any reasonable grounds for suspicion that 1026 00:36:59,290 --> 00:37:01,119 I'd done anything wrong, let alone been 1027 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:02,589 involved in terrorism. 1028 00:37:02,590 --> 00:37:04,749 Now, reasonable grounds for suspicion, 1029 00:37:04,750 --> 00:37:06,009 which is the burden of proof that they 1030 00:37:06,010 --> 00:37:07,539 have to prove with the secret court and 1031 00:37:07,540 --> 00:37:09,579 secret evidence where they can't he hear 1032 00:37:09,580 --> 00:37:10,599 your side of the case. 1033 00:37:11,650 --> 00:37:13,869 Reasonable grounds for suspicion is 1034 00:37:13,870 --> 00:37:15,009 the burden of proof. You need to do a 1035 00:37:15,010 --> 00:37:17,079 stop and search on the street two and 1036 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,329 a half years of my own life taken away on 1037 00:37:19,330 --> 00:37:21,429 the basis of a burden of proof that 1038 00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:22,510 is stopping search 1039 00:37:23,740 --> 00:37:24,740 next flight 1040 00:37:26,140 --> 00:37:27,219 so we can play a little game here. 1041 00:37:27,220 --> 00:37:29,199 We're going to we're going to get some 1042 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,299 hands in the air, a 1043 00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:33,519 little bit skewed audience participation. 1044 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:34,899 So just take your hands in the air like 1045 00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:37,089 you just don't care how many people have 1046 00:37:37,090 --> 00:37:39,189 had their bank accounts closed for 1047 00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:41,800 no reason and with no accountability. 1048 00:37:43,820 --> 00:37:45,949 As a couple, but largely 1049 00:37:45,950 --> 00:37:47,989 all the hands down where this has been 1050 00:37:47,990 --> 00:37:49,849 happening across the Muslim community, 1051 00:37:49,850 --> 00:37:52,129 it's happened to people 1052 00:37:52,130 --> 00:37:54,289 within two workers 1053 00:37:54,290 --> 00:37:56,419 within the organization, one board member 1054 00:37:56,420 --> 00:37:57,710 myself, Muslim bag. 1055 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,039 And it's going on among 1056 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,869 a whole range of other groups and 1057 00:38:02,870 --> 00:38:04,579 organizations, including the Cordoba 1058 00:38:04,580 --> 00:38:06,859 Foundation, A.L, secretely and 1059 00:38:06,860 --> 00:38:07,860 others. 1060 00:38:09,230 --> 00:38:11,269 How many people have had their passport 1061 00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:13,399 taken away and given 1062 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,649 no due process to try and get it back 1063 00:38:15,650 --> 00:38:16,650 at all? 1064 00:38:17,930 --> 00:38:18,919 We're now in the U.K. 1065 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,389 and the word progressive and other 1066 00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:22,519 legislation, this is happening more 1067 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,079 and more and more among the Muslim 1068 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:24,979 community. 1069 00:38:24,980 --> 00:38:27,009 We I've had my passport taken away in the 1070 00:38:27,010 --> 00:38:28,669 royal progressive before. 1071 00:38:28,670 --> 00:38:31,699 Moazzam Begg has taken away twice. 1072 00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:33,469 My next door neighbor, when I used to 1073 00:38:33,470 --> 00:38:34,999 live in Birmingham, had his possible 1074 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:35,899 taken away. 1075 00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:38,089 And I personally, personally know 1076 00:38:38,090 --> 00:38:40,279 of probably about 40, 50 1077 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,079 people that have had this happening to 1078 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:43,080 them. 1079 00:38:44,690 --> 00:38:47,149 How many people here have been banned 1080 00:38:47,150 --> 00:38:49,379 from entering countries 1081 00:38:49,380 --> 00:38:51,709 for four, again, for no other reason 1082 00:38:51,710 --> 00:38:54,229 or given the reason? 1083 00:38:54,230 --> 00:38:55,999 Again, we got one or two hands here. 1084 00:38:57,410 --> 00:38:59,479 Again, Cage members have been barred 1085 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,969 from a pretty impressive list myself 1086 00:39:01,970 --> 00:39:02,519 from Turkey. 1087 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:03,859 I was going on an aid convoy and they 1088 00:39:03,860 --> 00:39:06,259 decided the sleeping bags I 1089 00:39:06,260 --> 00:39:07,639 was going to be giving to refugees in 1090 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,499 Turkey were far too dangerous. 1091 00:39:09,500 --> 00:39:11,749 And I had to basically hitchhike 1092 00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:13,459 back to the UK from from the Turkish 1093 00:39:13,460 --> 00:39:14,869 border, which was a fun trip. 1094 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,040 Next one. 1095 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,239 How many people have been detained in 1096 00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:22,669 there upon entering the country 1097 00:39:22,670 --> 00:39:23,809 for up to six hours? 1098 00:39:23,810 --> 00:39:25,189 This could schedule seven miles. 1099 00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:26,839 We spoke about quite a lot. 1100 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,219 It's actually a very important piece of 1101 00:39:28,220 --> 00:39:29,569 legislation because it's very, very 1102 00:39:29,570 --> 00:39:31,009 dangerous in what it can do. 1103 00:39:31,010 --> 00:39:32,539 And it's one of the things that it's the 1104 00:39:32,540 --> 00:39:34,759 legislation they used on David Miranda. 1105 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,619 If you look to the list list of the 1106 00:39:36,620 --> 00:39:38,869 different rights that you don't 1107 00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:41,029 have when you're traveling 1108 00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:42,379 in and out of the country. 1109 00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:44,569 Now, my lovely and long suffering wife 1110 00:39:44,570 --> 00:39:45,499 is Dutch. 1111 00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:46,669 She comes from Amsterdam. 1112 00:39:46,670 --> 00:39:48,949 And so I have to go to Amsterdam very, 1113 00:39:48,950 --> 00:39:51,199 very regularly because otherwise 1114 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:52,549 my mother in law won't see her, her 1115 00:39:52,550 --> 00:39:54,049 grandchildren, and that will involve me 1116 00:39:54,050 --> 00:39:55,280 getting stopped very quickly. 1117 00:39:57,260 --> 00:39:59,419 So every single time I come 1118 00:39:59,420 --> 00:40:00,949 back, this is the first time that I have 1119 00:40:00,950 --> 00:40:02,959 to go through and not just me. 1120 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,269 Six between 60000 and 90000 1121 00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:07,639 people a year 1122 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,499 are affected by these by this 1123 00:40:09,500 --> 00:40:10,399 legislation. 1124 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:11,839 And there is no requirement for 1125 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,119 reasonable suspicion at all. 1126 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:15,529 Happens to so much in the office that 1127 00:40:15,530 --> 00:40:18,289 we've got a leaderboards tracking 1128 00:40:18,290 --> 00:40:19,760 who's been stopped the most. 1129 00:40:26,100 --> 00:40:28,079 OK, now this is this is the future, and 1130 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:29,549 this is very scary and this is what we're 1131 00:40:29,550 --> 00:40:31,529 just starting to see happen, how many 1132 00:40:31,530 --> 00:40:33,299 people have had their children taken away 1133 00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:34,889 because of their religious or political 1134 00:40:34,890 --> 00:40:35,890 beliefs? 1135 00:40:37,290 --> 00:40:39,419 That's a horrific statement, just 1136 00:40:39,420 --> 00:40:42,119 the fact that we can say that 1137 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:43,120 is horrific. 1138 00:40:44,810 --> 00:40:47,239 We wound 1139 00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:48,499 that with the new legislation would 1140 00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:51,139 prevent became mandatory and statutory, 1141 00:40:51,140 --> 00:40:54,139 and every civil servant has to 1142 00:40:54,140 --> 00:40:56,359 implement this policy of 1143 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,479 basically spying upon communities, 1144 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,339 that the outcome of that would be 1145 00:41:01,340 --> 00:41:02,899 children being taken away from their 1146 00:41:02,900 --> 00:41:04,639 families. We were told that we were 1147 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,769 scaremongering and that would never 1148 00:41:06,770 --> 00:41:08,299 happen. It has happened. 1149 00:41:08,300 --> 00:41:10,039 It's already been happening. 1150 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,479 You're dealing with eight cases at the 1151 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,669 moment and these cases 1152 00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:15,469 are again being heard in secret courts 1153 00:41:15,470 --> 00:41:17,959 and secret involving secret evidence. 1154 00:41:19,250 --> 00:41:21,439 You've got 360000 1155 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,359 public sector workers who have been 1156 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,249 trained to spy on Muslims who have been 1157 00:41:25,250 --> 00:41:27,079 trained to spot the signs of 1158 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:28,549 radicalization. 1159 00:41:28,550 --> 00:41:31,279 Those signs of radicalization 1160 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,469 and the effect of that has been a 500 1161 00:41:33,470 --> 00:41:34,999 percent increase in the number of 1162 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:36,000 referrals. 1163 00:41:37,490 --> 00:41:39,619 The the training they receive is an 1164 00:41:39,620 --> 00:41:41,239 hour and a half. 1165 00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:43,399 That's one hour video, 1166 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,289 which includes scenes from this is 1167 00:41:45,290 --> 00:41:47,359 England and a half an hour 1168 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:48,739 question and answer session where they're 1169 00:41:48,740 --> 00:41:50,839 meant to learn the ins and outs of Islam. 1170 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,839 A religion is 1400 years old 1171 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,199 and be able to spot what a radicalized 1172 00:41:57,260 --> 00:41:59,959 I actually come from an Irish family and 1173 00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:01,669 being a radical as it was meant to be a 1174 00:42:01,670 --> 00:42:02,670 good thing. 1175 00:42:05,630 --> 00:42:08,359 So this is a terrifying 1176 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:09,859 development in the war on terror. 1177 00:42:09,860 --> 00:42:11,899 We're going to talk more about prevention 1178 00:42:11,900 --> 00:42:13,729 later on as long as I could get a shout 1179 00:42:13,730 --> 00:42:14,779 out. 1180 00:42:14,780 --> 00:42:16,879 So I'm going to skip over 1181 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,379 this because you heard about those. 1182 00:42:19,380 --> 00:42:20,569 It's not scaremongering. 1183 00:42:20,570 --> 00:42:22,429 These are all documented cases. 1184 00:42:22,430 --> 00:42:24,979 And we are not going to 1185 00:42:24,980 --> 00:42:27,619 be silent on these issues. 1186 00:42:27,620 --> 00:42:29,059 We will keep on talking out. 1187 00:42:29,060 --> 00:42:29,989 We will not lay down. 1188 00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:31,939 We will not shut up because it is an 1189 00:42:31,940 --> 00:42:34,099 obligation upon us to speak truth to 1190 00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:35,149 the people in power. 1191 00:42:35,150 --> 00:42:36,739 And we will continue to speak truth to 1192 00:42:36,740 --> 00:42:38,959 the people in power, as we did when 1193 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,149 we compiled the first comprehensive 1194 00:42:41,150 --> 00:42:42,739 list of people that have been held in 1195 00:42:42,740 --> 00:42:43,939 Guantanamo Bay. 1196 00:42:43,940 --> 00:42:46,219 We will continue to speak truth to power, 1197 00:42:46,220 --> 00:42:48,379 as we did when we exposed the 1198 00:42:48,380 --> 00:42:50,569 British complicity in the rendition 1199 00:42:50,570 --> 00:42:52,339 and CIA torture programs. 1200 00:42:52,340 --> 00:42:54,769 We will continue to speak truth to power 1201 00:42:54,770 --> 00:42:57,799 in the way that we did when Moazzam 1202 00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,989 was able for his work and for his 1203 00:42:59,990 --> 00:43:01,699 campaigning to change the views on 1204 00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:02,599 Guantanamo. 1205 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,939 We will continue to speak truth to power 1206 00:43:04,940 --> 00:43:07,099 when we expose black sites, CIA 1207 00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:09,409 prisons, and we will continue to speak 1208 00:43:09,410 --> 00:43:11,989 truth to power to 1209 00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:14,089 countries like Abu Dhabi that 1210 00:43:14,090 --> 00:43:15,169 have secret prisons. 1211 00:43:15,170 --> 00:43:16,729 And the reason why the Qatari embassy is 1212 00:43:16,730 --> 00:43:18,679 on there is because there was a custody 1213 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:20,449 man being held at the secret prison 1214 00:43:20,450 --> 00:43:22,009 within walking distance of his own 1215 00:43:22,010 --> 00:43:24,139 embassy in his own embassy had no idea of 1216 00:43:24,140 --> 00:43:25,140 it. 1217 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,579 Kati's opposition to prevent has been 1218 00:43:28,580 --> 00:43:30,199 groundbreaking, and we are leading the 1219 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:31,579 way in this area. 1220 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,909 We organized a petition of over 300 1221 00:43:34,910 --> 00:43:37,189 leading academics in the UK 1222 00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:39,319 and across the across the world who 1223 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,449 signed a joint 1224 00:43:41,450 --> 00:43:43,159 letter saying how damaging and dangerous 1225 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:44,539 for them was. 1226 00:43:44,540 --> 00:43:46,009 Some of you might know who this guy is. 1227 00:43:46,010 --> 00:43:48,349 I hear he's quite well known 1228 00:43:48,350 --> 00:43:50,719 and he emphasizes 1229 00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:52,789 the same point here, that what happens 1230 00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:54,949 to the Muslim community will happen 1231 00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:56,719 to the rest of us as well. 1232 00:43:58,430 --> 00:44:00,799 So Cage has been involved in the release 1233 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,049 of Guantanamo prisoners and 1234 00:44:03,050 --> 00:44:05,239 working for this, especially 1235 00:44:05,240 --> 00:44:06,860 with the South African government now. 1236 00:44:09,690 --> 00:44:11,849 We have been very proud of our 1237 00:44:11,850 --> 00:44:13,919 work to get people released 1238 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,169 from a variety of different 1239 00:44:16,170 --> 00:44:17,849 situations where they've been held 1240 00:44:17,850 --> 00:44:19,229 unjustly. 1241 00:44:19,230 --> 00:44:20,699 We were working on the case of Alan 1242 00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:22,829 Henning and obviously, very, very 1243 00:44:22,830 --> 00:44:24,539 sadly, that one didn't work out. 1244 00:44:24,540 --> 00:44:26,489 But one of the things I always say about 1245 00:44:26,490 --> 00:44:28,289 Alan Henning was that he was rendered 1246 00:44:28,290 --> 00:44:30,809 from his from his aid convoy. 1247 00:44:30,810 --> 00:44:32,879 He was detained indefinitely without 1248 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,129 charge or trial, and then he was 1249 00:44:35,130 --> 00:44:37,979 murdered by extrajudicial killing 1250 00:44:37,980 --> 00:44:39,179 by ISIS. 1251 00:44:39,180 --> 00:44:41,309 And we stand out against that. 1252 00:44:41,310 --> 00:44:44,189 And we campaigned for his release 1253 00:44:44,190 --> 00:44:45,629 and we were working behind the scenes for 1254 00:44:45,630 --> 00:44:47,829 his release. And we have done for 1255 00:44:47,830 --> 00:44:49,469 four other people like Norman Kember. 1256 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,739 And for us, 1257 00:44:52,740 --> 00:44:54,989 it doesn't matter if you're ISIS 1258 00:44:54,990 --> 00:44:56,369 and you're kidnaping people or you're the 1259 00:44:56,370 --> 00:44:58,289 CIA and you're kidnaping people. 1260 00:44:58,290 --> 00:44:59,279 It's all wrong. 1261 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:00,329 It's all illegal. 1262 00:45:00,330 --> 00:45:01,530 And you should be held to account. 1263 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:13,709 And earlier earlier and 1264 00:45:13,710 --> 00:45:16,259 earlier on this year, we won a landmark 1265 00:45:16,260 --> 00:45:19,109 case against the the 1266 00:45:19,110 --> 00:45:20,190 charity commission 1267 00:45:21,330 --> 00:45:23,609 in regards to them trying 1268 00:45:23,610 --> 00:45:25,859 to stop our funding, which 1269 00:45:25,860 --> 00:45:27,899 would never happen before. 1270 00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:30,029 So obviously, because 1271 00:45:30,030 --> 00:45:31,349 of the crowd that we are here, I want to 1272 00:45:31,350 --> 00:45:33,149 talk about infosec for for a minute with 1273 00:45:33,150 --> 00:45:35,759 you guys and 1274 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,889 the threat that we face as 1275 00:45:37,890 --> 00:45:40,139 an organization, as we are holding 1276 00:45:40,140 --> 00:45:41,729 governments to account, as we are holding 1277 00:45:41,730 --> 00:45:43,590 security services to account as well 1278 00:45:45,030 --> 00:45:47,189 as we are holding all 1279 00:45:47,190 --> 00:45:49,529 these different organizations to 1280 00:45:49,530 --> 00:45:51,599 account. We know that the people that 1281 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,329 are trying to spy on us and 1282 00:45:54,330 --> 00:45:56,489 snoop into our emails, some of the most 1283 00:45:56,490 --> 00:45:58,679 dangerous people out there 1284 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,049 in regards to these sorts of issues. 1285 00:46:01,050 --> 00:46:03,329 And so this letter from 1286 00:46:03,330 --> 00:46:06,269 Jason Leopold from the CIA, 1287 00:46:06,270 --> 00:46:07,739 where he did a Freedom of Information 1288 00:46:07,740 --> 00:46:09,179 request as to whether they're spying on 1289 00:46:09,180 --> 00:46:10,979 us. Unfortunately, they weren't that 1290 00:46:10,980 --> 00:46:13,769 forthcoming with the particulars. 1291 00:46:13,770 --> 00:46:16,079 So infosec is very, very important 1292 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:17,489 for us in our work. It protects our 1293 00:46:17,490 --> 00:46:19,749 sources. It protects the work. 1294 00:46:19,750 --> 00:46:22,349 The people that we're working with 1295 00:46:22,350 --> 00:46:24,629 TOR is our standard browser 1296 00:46:24,630 --> 00:46:26,189 in the office. 1297 00:46:26,190 --> 00:46:28,259 It would be very, very bad if anyone was 1298 00:46:28,260 --> 00:46:30,359 caught using anything else. 1299 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,309 And we're looking to within the Muslim 1300 00:46:32,310 --> 00:46:34,409 community around Europe 1301 00:46:34,410 --> 00:46:36,509 to do a tor tool, which just sounds 1302 00:46:36,510 --> 00:46:38,609 brilliant, where we're hoping 1303 00:46:38,610 --> 00:46:40,799 to help people learn 1304 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,319 about Tor and get communities using 1305 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:44,879 it more frequently because it's such an 1306 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:45,880 important piece of kit. 1307 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,530 GPG encryption 1308 00:46:50,550 --> 00:46:52,109 is used on all of our internal 1309 00:46:52,110 --> 00:46:54,149 communications and I've got to give a 1310 00:46:54,150 --> 00:46:56,939 special shout out to signal, which 1311 00:46:56,940 --> 00:46:58,739 just does so much incredible work. 1312 00:46:58,740 --> 00:47:01,109 And Cage couldn't exist without 1313 00:47:01,110 --> 00:47:04,169 all of these pieces of technology 1314 00:47:04,170 --> 00:47:06,269 that we use every day. 1315 00:47:06,270 --> 00:47:08,429 So allow us to communicate with our 1316 00:47:08,430 --> 00:47:10,709 clients and to leak 1317 00:47:10,710 --> 00:47:12,659 out critical information that we're 1318 00:47:12,660 --> 00:47:13,559 doing. 1319 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,119 So I want to end on a very big thank you. 1320 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,129 Firstly, I thank you to the survivors and 1321 00:47:17,130 --> 00:47:18,569 to the people who have been through these 1322 00:47:18,570 --> 00:47:20,669 things and are working 1323 00:47:20,670 --> 00:47:22,739 with Cage and and a big, 1324 00:47:22,740 --> 00:47:24,449 massive thank you to to you guys, 1325 00:47:24,450 --> 00:47:26,519 basically the people in the communities 1326 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,649 to create things like tor the communities 1327 00:47:28,650 --> 00:47:30,719 that create things like signal with who, 1328 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:32,399 without whose help. We couldn't do this 1329 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,379 work. This work would just fall flat 1330 00:47:34,380 --> 00:47:36,149 without without the tools that you guys 1331 00:47:36,150 --> 00:47:37,150 create. 1332 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:39,539 The tools that you create are saving 1333 00:47:39,540 --> 00:47:41,429 lives and exposing lies. 1334 00:47:41,430 --> 00:47:42,430 Thank you very much. 1335 00:48:01,750 --> 00:48:04,029 So so now we're going to 1336 00:48:04,030 --> 00:48:06,339 if you want to exit, if 1337 00:48:06,340 --> 00:48:07,719 you want to exit, now would be a good 1338 00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:08,049 time. 1339 00:48:08,050 --> 00:48:09,669 But we're going to do a Q&A. 1340 00:48:09,670 --> 00:48:11,199 But before you leave, there's one thing I 1341 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,299 want to say, which maybe is not the 1342 00:48:13,300 --> 00:48:14,859 kindest thing to say, but it's an 1343 00:48:14,860 --> 00:48:16,659 important thing to say. 1344 00:48:16,660 --> 00:48:18,309 Now, none of you can say that you didn't 1345 00:48:18,310 --> 00:48:20,499 know. So it's up to us to do something 1346 00:48:20,500 --> 00:48:21,550 to change these things. 1347 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,129 So if you have a question, please come to 1348 00:48:32,130 --> 00:48:34,229 the microphones. This is, I think, a 1349 00:48:34,230 --> 00:48:36,149 really unique chance to talk to people 1350 00:48:36,150 --> 00:48:38,549 who really need to interact 1351 00:48:38,550 --> 00:48:40,529 with the infosec community, who need to 1352 00:48:40,530 --> 00:48:42,179 think about the things that this 1353 00:48:42,180 --> 00:48:44,189 conference and that the CCC has been 1354 00:48:44,190 --> 00:48:46,409 thinking about for 30 years and getting 1355 00:48:46,410 --> 00:48:48,539 these groups together is really huge. 1356 00:48:48,540 --> 00:48:50,519 So I hope that you're welcome, Cage and 1357 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,469 integrate them into the community, sit 1358 00:48:52,470 --> 00:48:54,689 with them in the tea house, really talk 1359 00:48:54,690 --> 00:48:56,819 with them and come to the microphone now 1360 00:48:56,820 --> 00:48:58,329 to ask questions. 1361 00:48:58,330 --> 00:49:00,659 You probably won't be drowned, but 1362 00:49:00,660 --> 00:49:01,660 it'd be worth it. 1363 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:06,509 Do you have a question? 1364 00:49:06,510 --> 00:49:07,779 OK, I guess. 1365 00:49:07,780 --> 00:49:09,749 Thank you for having this topic because 1366 00:49:09,750 --> 00:49:11,519 we always knew people were spying. 1367 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:13,679 But seeing this happening in 1368 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:15,179 more or less our neighbor country is 1369 00:49:15,180 --> 00:49:17,249 quite shocking, to be honest. 1370 00:49:17,250 --> 00:49:19,439 And I guess my question is, since 1371 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,119 you're using Tor and GBG and 1372 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:22,679 Siegenthaler, all of that, have you 1373 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,779 experienced any flaws? 1374 00:49:24,780 --> 00:49:26,579 So the government, knowing the things you 1375 00:49:26,580 --> 00:49:28,649 only communicated through 1376 00:49:28,650 --> 00:49:31,169 supposedly secure channels? 1377 00:49:31,170 --> 00:49:33,569 So far we haven't had any 1378 00:49:33,570 --> 00:49:36,089 cases where we've found obvious 1379 00:49:36,090 --> 00:49:39,449 flaws and seen 1380 00:49:39,450 --> 00:49:41,130 identifiable issues yet. 1381 00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:44,669 But it's my inclination 1382 00:49:44,670 --> 00:49:46,769 that if there was, they'd probably be 1383 00:49:46,770 --> 00:49:48,989 quite careful not to expose 1384 00:49:48,990 --> 00:49:51,239 it to us. But like 1385 00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:52,379 so far, so good. 1386 00:49:52,380 --> 00:49:54,479 And we can only do what 1387 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,699 we can, but we haven't 1388 00:49:56,700 --> 00:49:58,289 had any complaints yet. 1389 00:49:58,290 --> 00:49:59,729 Thank you very much. 1390 00:49:59,730 --> 00:50:01,799 Took a question from 1391 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:02,800 the Internet, please. 1392 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,309 Yes, what can we do to strike 1393 00:50:06,310 --> 00:50:09,489 a balance between government overreach 1394 00:50:09,490 --> 00:50:11,679 to prevent terrorist attacks and privacy 1395 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,119 protection? 1396 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,249 OK, so I couldn't see who asked that, 1397 00:50:15,250 --> 00:50:17,299 but thank you for the for the question. 1398 00:50:17,300 --> 00:50:19,169 Oh, yeah. 1399 00:50:19,170 --> 00:50:21,189 No, I think what we need to do is 1400 00:50:21,190 --> 00:50:23,319 remember always our fundamental 1401 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,509 values and our fundamental principles 1402 00:50:25,510 --> 00:50:28,239 about the rule of law and implementing 1403 00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:30,459 justice equally regardless 1404 00:50:30,460 --> 00:50:31,569 of the situation. 1405 00:50:31,570 --> 00:50:33,279 Generally speaking, every time you go 1406 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,649 into the realms of overreach, you're 1407 00:50:35,650 --> 00:50:37,419 making the problem worse for yourself, 1408 00:50:37,420 --> 00:50:39,039 not better. 1409 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,319 And that, in and of itself, 1410 00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,659 is a self-defeating way 1411 00:50:43,660 --> 00:50:45,909 of approaching these situations. 1412 00:50:45,910 --> 00:50:48,909 We didn't need all this legislation 1413 00:50:48,910 --> 00:50:50,619 rafts and Ralf's of it, that we've had 1414 00:50:50,620 --> 00:50:52,689 since 9/11 to deal with the 1415 00:50:52,690 --> 00:50:54,249 the Irish situation. 1416 00:50:54,250 --> 00:50:56,529 And to be honest, the Irish were much 1417 00:50:56,530 --> 00:50:57,639 better at being terrorists than the 1418 00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:58,840 Muslims have proven to be. 1419 00:51:04,770 --> 00:51:07,319 Yeah, so and 1420 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:09,449 even now, we we see the 1421 00:51:09,450 --> 00:51:11,699 according to FBI reports and 1422 00:51:11,700 --> 00:51:14,099 Interpol, varying 1423 00:51:14,100 --> 00:51:15,989 numbers, but 97 percent. 1424 00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:18,839 And in America, 98 percent of 1425 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:20,759 all terrorism has nothing to do with 1426 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:22,829 Islam. So we we need to 1427 00:51:22,830 --> 00:51:24,779 take a realistic approach, take a 1428 00:51:24,780 --> 00:51:26,909 measured approach and maintain 1429 00:51:26,910 --> 00:51:27,910 our values. 1430 00:51:34,290 --> 00:51:36,329 Microphone six, please. 1431 00:51:36,330 --> 00:51:37,889 Hello. Yes, sir. 1432 00:51:37,890 --> 00:51:40,110 I'd like to ask 1433 00:51:42,630 --> 00:51:44,219 so you've had all your bank accounts 1434 00:51:44,220 --> 00:51:46,409 closed and on blocked, 1435 00:51:46,410 --> 00:51:49,439 so and this is one of the 1436 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,589 supposed use cases for Bitcoin. 1437 00:51:52,590 --> 00:51:54,749 I'm just wondering, have 1438 00:51:54,750 --> 00:51:57,179 you been using it or what reasons 1439 00:51:57,180 --> 00:51:59,549 have you had for not using it? 1440 00:51:59,550 --> 00:52:01,649 Wider sense. 1441 00:52:01,650 --> 00:52:04,769 OK, so speaking personally, 1442 00:52:04,770 --> 00:52:06,689 I'm not a great techie. 1443 00:52:06,690 --> 00:52:08,099 Bitcoin is something I've looked at a few 1444 00:52:08,100 --> 00:52:10,139 times for for getting involved in and 1445 00:52:10,140 --> 00:52:11,140 using. 1446 00:52:11,670 --> 00:52:13,409 And it's something that could have been 1447 00:52:13,410 --> 00:52:14,410 been looking at. 1448 00:52:15,540 --> 00:52:17,369 I think one of the main reasons that sort 1449 00:52:17,370 --> 00:52:19,739 of held us back so far has been market 1450 00:52:19,740 --> 00:52:21,569 fluctuations. 1451 00:52:21,570 --> 00:52:23,909 I think as far as I understand 1452 00:52:23,910 --> 00:52:25,709 and as I said, it's not my area of 1453 00:52:25,710 --> 00:52:27,569 expertize all but with the with the 1454 00:52:27,570 --> 00:52:29,339 fluctuating value of it. 1455 00:52:29,340 --> 00:52:30,340 It can be quite 1456 00:52:31,770 --> 00:52:33,599 there's been some organization worries 1457 00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:35,489 and concerns on that regard. 1458 00:52:35,490 --> 00:52:36,869 But it is something that we're definitely 1459 00:52:36,870 --> 00:52:38,969 looking at and coming to places like that 1460 00:52:38,970 --> 00:52:40,469 and meeting people like you guys who are 1461 00:52:40,470 --> 00:52:42,239 experts in these sorts of things is very, 1462 00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:44,429 very invaluable for us because we need 1463 00:52:44,430 --> 00:52:47,009 that that layer of expertize 1464 00:52:47,010 --> 00:52:48,719 and advice. 1465 00:52:50,570 --> 00:52:52,129 Microphone one, please. 1466 00:52:52,130 --> 00:52:54,199 Thank you so much for coming and sharing 1467 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:55,429 your story with us. This was a really 1468 00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:57,499 incredible talk. Um, I think 1469 00:52:57,500 --> 00:52:58,669 kind of piggybacking on what you just 1470 00:52:58,670 --> 00:53:00,169 said. It's super important for 1471 00:53:00,170 --> 00:53:01,669 communities like this one to hear about 1472 00:53:01,670 --> 00:53:03,919 experience like yours, not simply because 1473 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,259 we can probably help you with digital 1474 00:53:06,260 --> 00:53:07,909 security. And it's really awesome to see 1475 00:53:07,910 --> 00:53:09,259 that you're already using a lot of these 1476 00:53:09,260 --> 00:53:10,939 tools. Could you maybe talk about other 1477 00:53:10,940 --> 00:53:12,739 organizations like Cege that are not in 1478 00:53:12,740 --> 00:53:14,449 the UK since this is such an 1479 00:53:14,450 --> 00:53:16,369 international audience and how we might 1480 00:53:16,370 --> 00:53:17,959 be able to reach out to them to sort of 1481 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:19,939 offer them the same resources or at least 1482 00:53:19,940 --> 00:53:22,129 just be in touch in solidarity? 1483 00:53:22,130 --> 00:53:24,049 There are a lot of really, really good 1484 00:53:24,050 --> 00:53:25,339 organizations that are doing similar 1485 00:53:25,340 --> 00:53:27,679 sorts of work. So in France, where 1486 00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:29,779 at the moment the legislation in France 1487 00:53:29,780 --> 00:53:31,489 has gone into hyperdrive, absolutely 1488 00:53:31,490 --> 00:53:32,839 insane. I was telling you about control 1489 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:34,909 orders that I was under in the 1490 00:53:34,910 --> 00:53:36,769 wake of the Paris attacks. 1491 00:53:36,770 --> 00:53:39,019 In the space of two days, they put 400 1492 00:53:39,020 --> 00:53:40,819 people under these sorts of similar 1493 00:53:40,820 --> 00:53:42,709 measures without charge and without 1494 00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:44,809 trial. They're actually the 1495 00:53:44,810 --> 00:53:47,419 the the French government 1496 00:53:47,420 --> 00:53:49,489 putting in a request to the Supreme 1497 00:53:49,490 --> 00:53:52,069 Court to look into the legality 1498 00:53:52,070 --> 00:53:54,289 of opening up a domestic Guantanamo 1499 00:53:54,290 --> 00:53:55,549 Bay where they could lock people up 1500 00:53:55,550 --> 00:53:57,529 without trial and without charge in 1501 00:53:57,530 --> 00:53:58,530 France. 1502 00:53:59,390 --> 00:54:01,549 So we're looking at internment camps on 1503 00:54:01,550 --> 00:54:03,739 mainland Europe, basically. 1504 00:54:03,740 --> 00:54:06,049 And so in France, there's a brilliant 1505 00:54:06,050 --> 00:54:08,809 organization called CCF. 1506 00:54:08,810 --> 00:54:10,879 My French is absolutely terrible, but I 1507 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,039 think it basically means like 1508 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:14,780 standing against Islamophobia. 1509 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,169 But they are doing some brilliant, 1510 00:54:18,170 --> 00:54:19,759 brilliant work. 1511 00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,699 There's quite a few organizations 1512 00:54:22,700 --> 00:54:25,639 in Holland doing some good stuff on this. 1513 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,859 Helen Duffy, who's based 1514 00:54:27,860 --> 00:54:30,139 in Denmark, is 1515 00:54:30,140 --> 00:54:31,790 actually superb on this sort of stuff. 1516 00:54:33,020 --> 00:54:36,019 And so there are quite a few 1517 00:54:36,020 --> 00:54:37,369 things. We're going to be upstairs in the 1518 00:54:37,370 --> 00:54:39,319 tea room. If you come come to us, we can 1519 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,049 give you sort of a more full list 1520 00:54:42,050 --> 00:54:43,050 north 1521 00:54:44,540 --> 00:54:46,799 microphone to please 1522 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:47,329 up. 1523 00:54:47,330 --> 00:54:49,039 First of all, I'd like to say that you 1524 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:50,869 guys are insanely brave for what you're 1525 00:54:50,870 --> 00:54:52,129 doing, so. 1526 00:54:52,130 --> 00:54:53,360 Yeah, thank you. 1527 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:01,040 The thing is. 1528 00:55:02,950 --> 00:55:05,169 Nobody likes abuses and nobody 1529 00:55:05,170 --> 00:55:07,269 in their right mind would ever 1530 00:55:07,270 --> 00:55:09,519 condone being wrongfully 1531 00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:11,349 accused or being taken to Guantanamo or 1532 00:55:11,350 --> 00:55:13,090 whatnot, but 1533 00:55:14,110 --> 00:55:16,509 there's this 1534 00:55:16,510 --> 00:55:18,759 crazy fear about 1535 00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:19,719 terrorism. 1536 00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:20,319 Yeah. 1537 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,269 In light of the recent attacks. 1538 00:55:22,270 --> 00:55:23,949 So what do you think the security 1539 00:55:23,950 --> 00:55:26,049 community or you guys could 1540 00:55:26,050 --> 00:55:28,330 do in order to help 1541 00:55:29,380 --> 00:55:31,449 Big Brother or whoever 1542 00:55:31,450 --> 00:55:32,779 to prevent terrorism? 1543 00:55:32,780 --> 00:55:35,169 Because, OK, we are 1544 00:55:35,170 --> 00:55:37,089 fighting abuse and that's great. 1545 00:55:37,090 --> 00:55:38,769 But these things do happen, and I'm 1546 00:55:38,770 --> 00:55:40,429 personally terrified of that. 1547 00:55:40,430 --> 00:55:42,729 Yeah, look, we're 1548 00:55:42,730 --> 00:55:44,949 all terrified and scared of 1549 00:55:44,950 --> 00:55:47,199 the the dangers that that we're placed 1550 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,929 under. And I think we 1551 00:55:49,930 --> 00:55:52,089 at the same time, we have to make sure 1552 00:55:52,090 --> 00:55:54,429 that we take a balanced approach. 1553 00:55:54,430 --> 00:55:56,799 And we look at these things 1554 00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,499 in a scale that's befitting 1555 00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:00,999 what they are. 1556 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:02,799 The attacks in Paris were horrible and no 1557 00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:03,939 one would deny that. 1558 00:56:03,940 --> 00:56:06,309 Unfortunately, according 1559 00:56:06,310 --> 00:56:08,439 to Nobel Peace Prize 1560 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,599 winning statisticians 1561 00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:12,819 and doctors, there have been four million 1562 00:56:12,820 --> 00:56:14,919 deaths since the war 1563 00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,139 on terror from indigenous Muslim 1564 00:56:17,140 --> 00:56:18,379 peoples in their own lands. 1565 00:56:19,570 --> 00:56:21,729 So we have to if we 1566 00:56:21,730 --> 00:56:24,159 want to get past this war on terror, 1567 00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:25,779 we have to move towards a situation of 1568 00:56:25,780 --> 00:56:27,249 justice for all peoples. 1569 00:56:27,250 --> 00:56:29,679 And to be honest, we have to 1570 00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:31,839 realize that and take our 1571 00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:33,699 own privilege into account. 1572 00:56:33,700 --> 00:56:35,349 Western lives are valuable. 1573 00:56:35,350 --> 00:56:37,449 All lives are but our eastern lives 1574 00:56:37,450 --> 00:56:39,939 as well. And as long as we are rampaging 1575 00:56:39,940 --> 00:56:42,459 around the world, dropping bombs 1576 00:56:42,460 --> 00:56:44,559 willy nilly, then there are 1577 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:46,119 going to be those people that are going 1578 00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,189 to seek to attack us in 1579 00:56:48,190 --> 00:56:49,149 the same sort of way. 1580 00:56:49,150 --> 00:56:50,679 It's horrific and it's wrong and it 1581 00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:51,609 shouldn't happen. 1582 00:56:51,610 --> 00:56:53,919 But it happened with the Irish. 1583 00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,109 It happened in South in 1584 00:56:56,110 --> 00:56:58,389 South Africa with the ANC and Nelson 1585 00:56:58,390 --> 00:56:59,859 Mandela was involved in bombing 1586 00:56:59,860 --> 00:57:01,419 campaigns. 1587 00:57:01,420 --> 00:57:03,489 And so we have to look at 1588 00:57:03,490 --> 00:57:05,829 this in the context of history and 1589 00:57:05,830 --> 00:57:07,479 not take history away from what's going 1590 00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:08,480 on at the moment. 1591 00:57:17,060 --> 00:57:18,910 A question from the Internet, please. 1592 00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:24,039 So this question is, is kitsch 1593 00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:25,839 connected to other groups which fight 1594 00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:27,909 against or prevent in the 1595 00:57:27,910 --> 00:57:28,910 UK? 1596 00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:31,840 Yeah, in terms of working against 1597 00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:35,019 PREVENT, there's a very 1598 00:57:35,020 --> 00:57:37,299 good organization called Prevent Watch 1599 00:57:37,300 --> 00:57:39,999 which do incredible work 1600 00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:41,619 dealing with the people who are affected 1601 00:57:41,620 --> 00:57:42,879 by it. 1602 00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,219 We had a case just recently of 1603 00:57:45,220 --> 00:57:47,439 an eight year old boy who was 1604 00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:48,549 in class. They were discussing 1605 00:57:48,550 --> 00:57:50,469 environmentalism. 1606 00:57:50,470 --> 00:57:51,639 And this eight year old boy said, I think 1607 00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:53,559 it's really good what Greenpeace do. 1608 00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:55,209 They get out there and they stop the 1609 00:57:55,210 --> 00:57:57,069 Japanese from killing the whales. 1610 00:57:57,070 --> 00:57:58,659 They crash their boats into them. 1611 00:57:58,660 --> 00:58:00,879 They kind of like eco terrorists. 1612 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,129 And two hours later, he was being taken 1613 00:58:03,130 --> 00:58:04,869 out of the classroom by police and 1614 00:58:04,870 --> 00:58:06,459 questioned about his views on Israel and 1615 00:58:06,460 --> 00:58:08,499 Palestine and ISIS. 1616 00:58:08,500 --> 00:58:10,149 This is an eight year old child in the 1617 00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:11,629 United Kingdom. 1618 00:58:11,630 --> 00:58:13,359 Prevent. Watch that case. 1619 00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:14,319 I worked with Cage. 1620 00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:15,909 We got it out into the public sphere. 1621 00:58:15,910 --> 00:58:17,709 We're working with the US, the largest 1622 00:58:17,710 --> 00:58:20,079 student body in the UK. 1623 00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:21,219 They have a 1624 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,229 they are working with us widely 1625 00:58:26,230 --> 00:58:28,419 in the university setting. 1626 00:58:28,420 --> 00:58:30,489 We're working with a whole range of 1627 00:58:30,490 --> 00:58:32,079 organizations. 1628 00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,150 Too many to list, really mopac 1629 00:58:35,470 --> 00:58:37,569 the modifier. 1630 00:58:37,570 --> 00:58:38,949 I mean, the list goes on and on and on. 1631 00:58:41,910 --> 00:58:43,410 Microphone number four, please. 1632 00:58:44,670 --> 00:58:45,959 Thanks. 1633 00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:47,889 So my question is, if you want, I believe 1634 00:58:47,890 --> 00:58:49,379 if you want to change behavior, we 1635 00:58:49,380 --> 00:58:51,509 basically have to understand why this 1636 00:58:51,510 --> 00:58:53,699 behavior. So if you could you put 1637 00:58:53,700 --> 00:58:55,769 yourself in the shoes of the government. 1638 00:58:55,770 --> 00:58:57,599 What is what is their narrative? 1639 00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,009 Are they what you say? 1640 00:58:59,010 --> 00:59:01,139 Oh, we just want to find terrorist 1641 00:59:01,140 --> 00:59:03,239 activity domestic or to demand 1642 00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:05,579 votes or to direct money or 1643 00:59:05,580 --> 00:59:07,169 what are their intentions? 1644 00:59:07,170 --> 00:59:08,249 There's a couple of problems. 1645 00:59:08,250 --> 00:59:09,419 There's there's a couple of issues. 1646 00:59:09,420 --> 00:59:10,349 And that's a really great question. 1647 00:59:10,350 --> 00:59:12,569 By the way, there's a couple of 1648 00:59:12,570 --> 00:59:13,529 issues here from the government's 1649 00:59:13,530 --> 00:59:15,599 perspective. One, we have a 1650 00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,879 very strong neoconservative push going 1651 00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:20,249 on across multiple governments 1652 00:59:20,250 --> 00:59:22,499 at the moment, which are very hawkish 1653 00:59:22,500 --> 00:59:24,599 and seek to enrich 1654 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,269 the military industrial complex 1655 00:59:27,270 --> 00:59:29,009 to they've got a fundamental 1656 00:59:29,010 --> 00:59:30,509 misunderstanding about the way that 1657 00:59:30,510 --> 00:59:31,379 terrorism happens. 1658 00:59:31,380 --> 00:59:33,449 So we're constantly told in the 1659 00:59:33,450 --> 00:59:34,559 media that it's all to do with 1660 00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:36,659 radicalization and understandings 1661 00:59:36,660 --> 00:59:38,879 of Islam and people 1662 00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:41,279 you know, one guy starts wearing a thobe, 1663 00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,079 thing grows a beard, and the next thing 1664 00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:44,189 you know, he's probably going to be 1665 00:59:44,190 --> 00:59:47,099 joining ISIS, the academic 1666 00:59:47,100 --> 00:59:48,659 experts in these fields, 1667 00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:53,849 mosques, Hageman, who is Axia 1668 00:59:53,850 --> 00:59:56,309 and actually came up with this theory 1669 00:59:56,310 --> 00:59:57,599 and other experts who say this is 1670 00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,609 complete nonsense. 1671 00:59:59,610 --> 01:00:01,469 The terrorism that we face now is like 1672 01:00:01,470 --> 01:00:02,699 every other terrorism. 1673 01:00:02,700 --> 01:00:04,799 It comes from political 1674 01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:05,939 dissatisfaction. 1675 01:00:05,940 --> 01:00:08,099 And that's why Cage, we 1676 01:00:08,100 --> 01:00:09,419 always try to try to use the term 1677 01:00:09,420 --> 01:00:10,949 political violence, because that's what 1678 01:00:10,950 --> 01:00:13,259 it is. It's a it's a political 1679 01:00:13,260 --> 01:00:14,549 situation. We need to find a political 1680 01:00:14,550 --> 01:00:15,689 solution to it. 1681 01:00:15,690 --> 01:00:17,469 So that sort of answers. 1682 01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:26,969 And the last question, microphone 1683 01:00:26,970 --> 01:00:27,970 two, please. 1684 01:00:28,910 --> 01:00:30,119 Hi. Hi. 1685 01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:31,979 Thank you for your question or sorry, 1686 01:00:31,980 --> 01:00:33,509 this is my question. Thank you for your 1687 01:00:33,510 --> 01:00:34,510 time. 1688 01:00:35,610 --> 01:00:37,109 I know exactly how you feel right now. 1689 01:00:38,670 --> 01:00:39,670 Yeah. 1690 01:00:40,500 --> 01:00:42,719 OK, but 1691 01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:43,770 it's see, that's on stage. 1692 01:00:45,090 --> 01:00:47,819 I guess my question to you is, 1693 01:00:47,820 --> 01:00:49,829 as a technologist, how can we better 1694 01:00:49,830 --> 01:00:52,289 support you and build better tools and 1695 01:00:52,290 --> 01:00:54,509 basically build tools that are effective 1696 01:00:54,510 --> 01:00:57,119 for your organization, for organizations 1697 01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:58,469 like you? 1698 01:00:58,470 --> 01:00:59,849 Thank you very much. 1699 01:00:59,850 --> 01:01:02,019 I think that what 1700 01:01:02,020 --> 01:01:04,229 we need, especially at the moment, is 1701 01:01:04,230 --> 01:01:06,659 advice and working with people who are 1702 01:01:06,660 --> 01:01:08,129 experts in these sorts of areas. 1703 01:01:08,130 --> 01:01:09,749 And there are a lot of things that, for 1704 01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:10,750 example, 1705 01:01:11,940 --> 01:01:13,889 there's software now that's going out and 1706 01:01:13,890 --> 01:01:15,659 being rolled out across the country in 1707 01:01:15,660 --> 01:01:18,659 schools where 1708 01:01:18,660 --> 01:01:20,309 if you type in any one of a number of 1709 01:01:20,310 --> 01:01:22,049 keywords, you get flagged up for the 1710 01:01:22,050 --> 01:01:23,639 prevention measures, which I was telling 1711 01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:25,379 you about, where kids get taken out of 1712 01:01:25,380 --> 01:01:27,299 schools and questioned by the police and 1713 01:01:27,300 --> 01:01:28,529 sometimes even taken away from their 1714 01:01:28,530 --> 01:01:29,530 families. 1715 01:01:30,330 --> 01:01:32,969 When we found out about the software, 1716 01:01:32,970 --> 01:01:35,039 we found out that 1717 01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:37,139 the some of the names 1718 01:01:37,140 --> 01:01:39,569 on the list for ordinary 1719 01:01:39,570 --> 01:01:41,610 activists who have 1720 01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,059 very, very clearly have no reason 1721 01:01:45,060 --> 01:01:47,279 to be on any such list. 1722 01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:49,919 And so we we're like, this is McCarthyist 1723 01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:51,329 system. 1724 01:01:51,330 --> 01:01:53,549 And anyone checking the typing things in 1725 01:01:53,550 --> 01:01:55,769 can innocently then cause 1726 01:01:55,770 --> 01:01:57,779 problems for themselves later on. 1727 01:01:57,780 --> 01:01:59,009 One of the things that we tried to do was 1728 01:01:59,010 --> 01:02:01,199 find out and work out what 1729 01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:02,249 the full list was. 1730 01:02:02,250 --> 01:02:04,799 We had a screenshot of a presentation 1731 01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,049 that they gave, but 1732 01:02:07,050 --> 01:02:09,209 we couldn't and we had no idea of 1733 01:02:09,210 --> 01:02:10,980 how to approach those sorts of problems. 1734 01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,349 So working with people like yourselves 1735 01:02:14,350 --> 01:02:16,559 to deal with these things 1736 01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,139 would be very, very good 1737 01:02:19,140 --> 01:02:21,299 and sort of getting into sort 1738 01:02:21,300 --> 01:02:23,399 of finding out and 1739 01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:25,199 researching these sorts of issues. 1740 01:02:32,500 --> 01:02:34,539 Thank you very much for this inspiring 1741 01:02:34,540 --> 01:02:37,269 talk. It's kind of disturbing, 1742 01:02:37,270 --> 01:02:39,759 but we all have to know that. 1743 01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:41,229 Thank you. Thank you very much for having 1744 01:02:41,230 --> 01:02:42,230 me.