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If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/750 Thanks! 1 00:00:15,130 --> 00:00:17,079 Welcome, everybody, to the next talk 2 00:00:17,080 --> 00:00:19,629 hacking collective as a laboratory, 3 00:00:19,630 --> 00:00:21,369 our speaker is Martin Darold. 4 00:00:21,370 --> 00:00:22,959 He's from Poland. 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,809 And this talk is about as about sociology 6 00:00:25,810 --> 00:00:28,149 and the talk will offer you an insight 7 00:00:28,150 --> 00:00:30,969 on the sociological research 8 00:00:30,970 --> 00:00:33,489 that has been done on hacker spaces 9 00:00:33,490 --> 00:00:34,809 and hacking collectives. 10 00:00:34,810 --> 00:00:36,579 And now I ask you for a warm round of 11 00:00:36,580 --> 00:00:38,979 applause to great margins. 12 00:00:38,980 --> 00:00:39,980 Have a lot of fun. 13 00:00:46,410 --> 00:00:48,479 Hi, my name is Martin 14 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:50,399 Zero Time, a member of the Warsaw 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:52,589 hackerspace, I'm also 16 00:00:52,590 --> 00:00:54,149 the candidate that sociologic at the 17 00:00:54,150 --> 00:00:55,889 Institute of Sociology at the University 18 00:00:55,890 --> 00:00:57,299 of Also. 19 00:00:57,300 --> 00:00:59,639 Before I start, I ask you, 20 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:01,919 please imagine a computer 21 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:03,179 bug. 22 00:01:03,180 --> 00:01:04,859 It could be a software bug. 23 00:01:04,860 --> 00:01:05,969 It could be an exploit. 24 00:01:05,970 --> 00:01:07,499 It could be a hardware bug. 25 00:01:07,500 --> 00:01:09,839 It could be the start of your hacking 26 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:11,939 career. It could be the bug that you are 27 00:01:11,940 --> 00:01:13,469 struggling currently. 28 00:01:13,470 --> 00:01:16,529 Please imagine any kind of computer bug. 29 00:01:16,530 --> 00:01:18,209 You do not have to be a hacker if you are 30 00:01:18,210 --> 00:01:19,979 just interested. It could be a bug that 31 00:01:19,980 --> 00:01:22,559 you just read about in the popular press. 32 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:23,639 I do not care. 33 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,309 Please imagine that's 10 seconds. 34 00:01:26,310 --> 00:01:27,569 Any kind of computer bug. 35 00:01:32,810 --> 00:01:34,909 So I guess that 36 00:01:34,910 --> 00:01:37,399 some of you can imagine 37 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,829 the computer bug also thought about 38 00:01:39,830 --> 00:01:41,629 how it works. 39 00:01:41,630 --> 00:01:43,849 Some of you forgot how to 40 00:01:43,850 --> 00:01:45,979 stop it working, some of 41 00:01:45,980 --> 00:01:48,229 your thought, how to exploit it, how 42 00:01:48,230 --> 00:01:50,389 to make money of it, or how to 43 00:01:50,390 --> 00:01:52,549 make this good, this bug 44 00:01:52,550 --> 00:01:55,429 for a good cause or any kind of cause. 45 00:01:55,430 --> 00:01:58,099 Some of you also perhaps 46 00:01:58,100 --> 00:02:00,799 forgot how to make it visible 47 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:02,989 or how to make it invisible 48 00:02:02,990 --> 00:02:05,509 or what machines, instruments 49 00:02:05,510 --> 00:02:08,089 would it take to make it to 50 00:02:08,090 --> 00:02:10,099 change the degrees of visibility? 51 00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:12,479 Would it not need an oscilloscope? 52 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,569 Would it need a server or 53 00:02:14,570 --> 00:02:15,679 any kind of software? 54 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,369 Perhaps some of you thought about 55 00:02:19,370 --> 00:02:21,469 systematic bugs, bugs 56 00:02:21,470 --> 00:02:24,409 that are inherent to particular designs. 57 00:02:24,410 --> 00:02:26,479 Some of you might have thought about 58 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,359 situational box that are exceptional, 59 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,189 connected with particular sets of 60 00:02:31,190 --> 00:02:33,469 constraints that do not happen 61 00:02:33,470 --> 00:02:34,879 every time. 62 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,069 Obviously, some of those questions 63 00:02:37,070 --> 00:02:39,139 are technological questions. 64 00:02:39,140 --> 00:02:40,579 Some of those questions might be 65 00:02:40,580 --> 00:02:43,429 connected with science or medicine 66 00:02:43,430 --> 00:02:45,919 because the question about knowledge 67 00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:48,049 is inherently connected with different 68 00:02:48,050 --> 00:02:50,389 kinds of scientific, technological, 69 00:02:50,390 --> 00:02:52,009 medical reasoning. 70 00:02:52,010 --> 00:02:54,439 But there are kind of questions 71 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,509 that we when we start asking 72 00:02:56,510 --> 00:02:58,909 them, we come closer to economical 73 00:02:58,910 --> 00:03:00,859 issues or sociological issues or 74 00:03:00,860 --> 00:03:01,969 philosophical issues. 75 00:03:03,110 --> 00:03:05,329 And sociology of science 76 00:03:05,330 --> 00:03:07,459 is about what is 77 00:03:07,460 --> 00:03:09,619 common for the people 78 00:03:09,620 --> 00:03:11,989 who are shared by the same thinking 79 00:03:11,990 --> 00:03:14,539 or similar thinking about particular 80 00:03:14,540 --> 00:03:16,549 categories of knowledge. 81 00:03:16,550 --> 00:03:18,859 So when you start asking 82 00:03:18,860 --> 00:03:21,079 questions, who may see 83 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,479 that particular kind of bug 84 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,879 or when we start the questions, 85 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,099 what does it take to 86 00:03:28,100 --> 00:03:30,019 see that particular kind of bug in a 87 00:03:30,020 --> 00:03:31,939 sense of situational setting or a 88 00:03:31,940 --> 00:03:33,349 sociological setting? 89 00:03:33,350 --> 00:03:35,149 Then we are studying that. 90 00:03:35,150 --> 00:03:37,099 Then we are starting to ask philosophical 91 00:03:37,100 --> 00:03:39,709 questions or sociological questions. 92 00:03:39,710 --> 00:03:41,989 The difference is when 93 00:03:41,990 --> 00:03:44,089 a philosopher asks about 94 00:03:44,090 --> 00:03:46,399 knowledge, he or she thinks 95 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,229 about the individual. 96 00:03:48,230 --> 00:03:50,509 And when a sociologist starts 97 00:03:50,510 --> 00:03:52,999 asking similar questions, he or she 98 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:54,139 thinks about the group. 99 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,289 So some of you might 100 00:03:58,290 --> 00:04:00,809 have thought about the particular 101 00:04:00,810 --> 00:04:02,969 kind of man in the middle attacks, for 102 00:04:02,970 --> 00:04:04,679 example, as described at CloudFlare 103 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,509 Block, it's OK. 104 00:04:06,510 --> 00:04:08,669 Some of you might have thought about 105 00:04:08,670 --> 00:04:11,099 syphilis or maybe not, 106 00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:12,929 because this is a different kind of bug 107 00:04:12,930 --> 00:04:15,149 and it doesn't and it's 108 00:04:15,150 --> 00:04:18,208 not that closely connected with computers 109 00:04:18,209 --> 00:04:19,599 or is it? 110 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,659 So when we 111 00:04:21,660 --> 00:04:24,269 fall, when we think about the box, 112 00:04:24,270 --> 00:04:26,399 our knowledge in terms of sociological 113 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,739 knowledge, we start 114 00:04:28,740 --> 00:04:30,929 to understand that 115 00:04:30,930 --> 00:04:33,089 learning to see a bug 116 00:04:33,090 --> 00:04:36,149 is also about belonging 117 00:04:36,150 --> 00:04:38,249 to a particular group. 118 00:04:38,250 --> 00:04:40,259 When we start to see different kind of 119 00:04:40,260 --> 00:04:42,689 bugs, when we learn how to manipulate 120 00:04:42,690 --> 00:04:44,729 them, how to exploit them in a different 121 00:04:44,730 --> 00:04:47,249 kind of way, we are also being closer 122 00:04:47,250 --> 00:04:49,379 and closer to particular knowledge 123 00:04:49,380 --> 00:04:51,719 or particular experts, sub 124 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,819 societies or sub social groups. 125 00:04:55,050 --> 00:04:57,299 And obviously the bug is connected 126 00:04:57,300 --> 00:04:58,439 with a particular setting. 127 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,480 It might be situational, but 128 00:05:01,530 --> 00:05:03,809 more often than not, it also needs 129 00:05:03,810 --> 00:05:06,119 an extra work to make it visible. 130 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,369 It doesn't mean that this is artificial 131 00:05:08,370 --> 00:05:09,449 or natural. 132 00:05:09,450 --> 00:05:11,549 It just means that it's not 133 00:05:11,550 --> 00:05:13,709 obvious or 134 00:05:13,710 --> 00:05:15,779 it requires a special norat or a 135 00:05:15,780 --> 00:05:18,029 special social setting in 136 00:05:18,030 --> 00:05:20,039 order to make it visible. 137 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,349 This is one thing that is shared between 138 00:05:22,350 --> 00:05:24,839 syphilis and men in the middle attack. 139 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:26,969 They are not visible at the 140 00:05:26,970 --> 00:05:28,229 first glance. 141 00:05:28,230 --> 00:05:30,329 They need some kind of expert setting 142 00:05:30,330 --> 00:05:32,699 in order to become visible. 143 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:34,769 And the social of science is about 144 00:05:34,770 --> 00:05:36,120 that kind of expert settings. 145 00:05:37,410 --> 00:05:39,599 So to see or not 146 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,669 to see a particular bug is also to 147 00:05:41,670 --> 00:05:43,679 belong or not to belong to a particular 148 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:44,680 knowledge group. 149 00:05:45,570 --> 00:05:47,639 And sociology of science have 150 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:48,989 has different strengths. 151 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,409 One strain is proposed 152 00:05:52,410 --> 00:05:54,779 by Merton and it 153 00:05:54,780 --> 00:05:57,209 works that science 154 00:05:57,210 --> 00:05:59,519 was a source of certified knowledge for 155 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,589 the rest of society. 156 00:06:01,590 --> 00:06:03,389 The science was the only source of 157 00:06:03,390 --> 00:06:05,849 knowledge. The other types of knowledge 158 00:06:05,850 --> 00:06:07,349 was not certified. 159 00:06:07,350 --> 00:06:09,749 The Merton would go crazy if 160 00:06:09,750 --> 00:06:11,879 he thought about Harker's, 161 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:12,880 but. 162 00:06:13,790 --> 00:06:15,500 Fortunately, he didn't have two 163 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,429 other kinds of sociological thoughts 164 00:06:19,430 --> 00:06:21,229 would be proposals was proposed, for 165 00:06:21,230 --> 00:06:23,489 example, by Bruno Latour and he proposed 166 00:06:23,490 --> 00:06:25,459 that technology is society made to 167 00:06:25,460 --> 00:06:26,449 rubble. 168 00:06:26,450 --> 00:06:29,029 And it means that particular design 169 00:06:29,030 --> 00:06:31,399 decisions that were made 170 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,259 or a particular design decisions that 171 00:06:33,260 --> 00:06:35,239 were that seemed to be random, 172 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,849 accidental, eventually 173 00:06:37,850 --> 00:06:40,159 became more and more stable, 174 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,919 more and more constrained 175 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,229 and more and more embedded in the fabric 176 00:06:45,230 --> 00:06:46,759 of society. 177 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,069 For example, if we decide 178 00:06:49,070 --> 00:06:51,439 where do we put our bridges, 179 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,629 if we decide what measures of 180 00:06:53,630 --> 00:06:55,999 our networks are enough 181 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,399 to ensure privacy or security, 182 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,679 we are making long term decisions that 183 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,749 will shape the societies that will 184 00:07:02,750 --> 00:07:03,750 come after us. 185 00:07:04,730 --> 00:07:07,129 My and those approaches 186 00:07:07,130 --> 00:07:09,119 are good and many people are working with 187 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,359 them, with our goods, with 188 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:12,529 rather interesting results. 189 00:07:12,530 --> 00:07:14,359 But I wish to talk about approach 190 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,459 proposed by Ludwik Fleck, 191 00:07:16,460 --> 00:07:18,859 the Polish sociologist, Polish 192 00:07:18,860 --> 00:07:21,320 philosopher, Polish microbiologist, 193 00:07:22,550 --> 00:07:24,109 and he proposed the notion of what 194 00:07:24,110 --> 00:07:27,229 collective it was in the 1930s. 195 00:07:27,230 --> 00:07:28,459 He published in German, 196 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,059 so perhaps not all of you 197 00:07:32,060 --> 00:07:34,279 might have read about him. 198 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,499 So he proposed that the collective 199 00:07:36,500 --> 00:07:38,959 is a group of people who shared 200 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,479 the similar epistemological approaches. 201 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,849 What do I mean? If I say epistemological 202 00:07:43,850 --> 00:07:46,069 approaches, for example, 203 00:07:46,070 --> 00:07:48,139 if a certain group of people 204 00:07:48,140 --> 00:07:50,389 agree more or less 205 00:07:50,390 --> 00:07:52,519 that something counts as 206 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,589 a good evidence or 207 00:07:54,590 --> 00:07:57,589 something counts as truth 208 00:07:57,590 --> 00:08:00,169 or some methods of achieving 209 00:08:00,170 --> 00:08:02,539 truth are better or more reliable 210 00:08:02,540 --> 00:08:04,939 than other, then perhaps 211 00:08:04,940 --> 00:08:06,859 this group of people might be a 212 00:08:06,860 --> 00:08:08,239 collective. 213 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,579 What is more advanced sign of collective 214 00:08:10,580 --> 00:08:12,889 collective? It would be the ability to 215 00:08:12,890 --> 00:08:15,319 recognize some patterns 216 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,689 that would be invisible to other. 217 00:08:17,690 --> 00:08:20,149 That kind of pattern might be a syphilis 218 00:08:20,150 --> 00:08:22,159 bacteria at the microscope. 219 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,649 That type of pattern might be 220 00:08:24,650 --> 00:08:26,989 many in the middle attack in the cold, 221 00:08:26,990 --> 00:08:29,359 but it's about seeing the pattern 222 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,408 that other group of people would not see. 223 00:08:32,409 --> 00:08:34,808 And learning to see that pattern is also 224 00:08:34,809 --> 00:08:36,939 starting to belonging to that particular 225 00:08:36,940 --> 00:08:37,940 group. 226 00:08:38,770 --> 00:08:41,259 And we are sociologists of science. 227 00:08:42,370 --> 00:08:44,499 We are somewhat different than 228 00:08:44,500 --> 00:08:46,629 our friends from psychology department 229 00:08:46,630 --> 00:08:48,369 or our friends in cognitive science 230 00:08:48,370 --> 00:08:50,469 department because we think that 231 00:08:50,470 --> 00:08:52,869 thinking is a collective endeavor. 232 00:08:52,870 --> 00:08:55,179 We do not really believe that 233 00:08:55,180 --> 00:08:58,179 people think on their own. 234 00:08:58,180 --> 00:09:01,899 We believe that when a particular 235 00:09:01,900 --> 00:09:04,109 individual starts thinking 236 00:09:04,110 --> 00:09:06,519 he or she is thinking with his 237 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,579 or her books, experiences, 238 00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:11,709 histories, biographies and so on, so on 239 00:09:11,710 --> 00:09:14,079 and many more advanced projects, 240 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,359 for example, open source software 241 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,579 or architecture or software or 242 00:09:18,580 --> 00:09:20,679 Wasserman Test to detect 243 00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:21,729 syphilis. 244 00:09:21,730 --> 00:09:23,769 It was a collective endeavor. 245 00:09:23,770 --> 00:09:26,079 And we also think that thinking 246 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,569 involves minds, but also involves 247 00:09:28,570 --> 00:09:30,339 hands and eyes. 248 00:09:30,340 --> 00:09:32,469 Sometimes we do not have the 249 00:09:32,470 --> 00:09:34,659 idea of solution 250 00:09:34,660 --> 00:09:35,829 in our mind. 251 00:09:35,830 --> 00:09:38,289 Sometimes we just come upon it, 252 00:09:38,290 --> 00:09:40,779 you know, with tinkering, 253 00:09:40,780 --> 00:09:43,149 with seeing things in microscopes 254 00:09:43,150 --> 00:09:44,150 or in cold. 255 00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:48,349 So how does it work in practice? 256 00:09:48,350 --> 00:09:50,449 I spent some years 257 00:09:50,450 --> 00:09:53,629 watching and talking and observing 258 00:09:53,630 --> 00:09:55,789 my friends from different hocus-pocus in 259 00:09:55,790 --> 00:09:58,729 Poland and in some neighboring countries, 260 00:09:58,730 --> 00:10:00,829 I gather the data 261 00:10:00,830 --> 00:10:03,019 I got privilege and access 262 00:10:03,020 --> 00:10:05,269 to many parts of their private 263 00:10:05,270 --> 00:10:06,689 or hucking lives. 264 00:10:06,690 --> 00:10:08,199 They talk with me. 265 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:09,799 Then I gathered this data. 266 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:11,359 I analyzed it. 267 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,669 The first set of analysis is called 268 00:10:13,670 --> 00:10:15,979 First Stage Coding, and this is looking 269 00:10:15,980 --> 00:10:18,529 for basic patterns, basic biographical 270 00:10:18,530 --> 00:10:20,599 patterns, basic situational 271 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,149 patterns, basing, for example, 272 00:10:23,150 --> 00:10:25,249 group rituals, rather simple 273 00:10:25,250 --> 00:10:27,559 stuff. Then basing on that, 274 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:30,109 I devised some kind of models. 275 00:10:30,110 --> 00:10:32,269 I test them and eventually 276 00:10:32,270 --> 00:10:33,679 I publish papers. 277 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:35,899 So this is the classical 278 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:38,059 sociological route of 279 00:10:38,060 --> 00:10:40,129 work, but some of you might 280 00:10:40,130 --> 00:10:41,989 not know it. 281 00:10:41,990 --> 00:10:44,119 So what about 282 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:45,120 the laboratory? 283 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,589 So through sociologist of science, 284 00:10:48,590 --> 00:10:50,689 since Merton spent 285 00:10:50,690 --> 00:10:52,159 an awful, awful lot of time in 286 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,589 laboratories because laboratory 287 00:10:54,590 --> 00:10:57,619 for a Modern Society is a special place. 288 00:10:57,620 --> 00:10:59,689 This is the place where not only 289 00:10:59,690 --> 00:11:01,100 science is made, 290 00:11:02,150 --> 00:11:04,609 but this is also a place where future 291 00:11:04,610 --> 00:11:06,799 society is kind of shaped up, 292 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,159 not because in the laboratory we could 293 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,439 devise any kind of knowledge or 294 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,749 not because any kind of truth 295 00:11:14,750 --> 00:11:17,119 could be socially constructed 296 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,519 no matter whatever, but because 297 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,469 many of the decisions made in 298 00:11:21,470 --> 00:11:24,049 laboratories have significant 299 00:11:24,050 --> 00:11:25,400 political consequences. 300 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,969 I'm not only talking about decisions 301 00:11:28,970 --> 00:11:31,039 made in programing communities, but 302 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,169 it also dates back, for example, to 303 00:11:33,170 --> 00:11:35,239 Program Manhattan or the 304 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:36,859 Wasserman Test for syphilis. 305 00:11:38,270 --> 00:11:41,419 So what is the laboratory 306 00:11:41,420 --> 00:11:43,789 or what makes the hackerspace a special 307 00:11:43,790 --> 00:11:44,790 kind of laboratory? 308 00:11:46,690 --> 00:11:49,569 As a rule of thumb, laboratory 309 00:11:49,570 --> 00:11:52,269 is a kind of separated space 310 00:11:52,270 --> 00:11:54,339 when you could make when 311 00:11:54,340 --> 00:11:56,679 you could make mistakes freely, 312 00:11:56,680 --> 00:11:59,169 the mistakes made in the open society 313 00:11:59,170 --> 00:12:01,269 cost more than mistakes made in 314 00:12:01,270 --> 00:12:02,649 the laboratory. 315 00:12:02,650 --> 00:12:05,349 And laboratory enables you 316 00:12:05,350 --> 00:12:07,809 to kind of limit the space 317 00:12:07,810 --> 00:12:10,029 or time or causes in 318 00:12:10,030 --> 00:12:11,619 order to manipulate them. 319 00:12:11,620 --> 00:12:13,299 Things in the laboratory might happen 320 00:12:13,300 --> 00:12:15,819 faster, might happen slower, might 321 00:12:15,820 --> 00:12:17,769 happen on different scales, for example, 322 00:12:17,770 --> 00:12:19,569 in the scale of microscope on in the 323 00:12:19,570 --> 00:12:21,699 scope of Microsoft's sociological 324 00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:22,989 models. 325 00:12:22,990 --> 00:12:24,759 And you could, for example, limit some 326 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:25,760 causes. 327 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:28,779 And in the sociology of science, 328 00:12:28,780 --> 00:12:30,819 sometimes we say that in the laboratory 329 00:12:30,820 --> 00:12:33,669 the first regulations are reverted. 330 00:12:33,670 --> 00:12:35,949 It means that in the outside world 331 00:12:35,950 --> 00:12:38,349 the bacteria are stronger because 332 00:12:38,350 --> 00:12:40,359 they are they are harder to spot. 333 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,159 They are harder to catch. 334 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,169 But in the laboratory, we could limit 335 00:12:44,170 --> 00:12:46,449 them. We could cut, 336 00:12:46,450 --> 00:12:48,579 cut, cut that cut them 337 00:12:48,580 --> 00:12:50,409 in our in our networks and our 338 00:12:50,410 --> 00:12:51,410 instruments. 339 00:12:52,090 --> 00:12:53,769 But what is particular for the 340 00:12:53,770 --> 00:12:55,839 hackerspace or any other kind of 341 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,969 informatics technology laboratory 342 00:12:57,970 --> 00:13:00,399 that in the case of a great laboratory 343 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,859 and hackerspace in silico 344 00:13:02,860 --> 00:13:04,779 is the same as individual. 345 00:13:04,780 --> 00:13:06,909 It means that there isn't 346 00:13:06,910 --> 00:13:09,069 there is very fine line between 347 00:13:09,070 --> 00:13:11,469 theoretical model and 348 00:13:11,470 --> 00:13:13,389 practical application. 349 00:13:13,390 --> 00:13:15,549 For example, in physics, in chemistry, 350 00:13:15,550 --> 00:13:18,099 in biology, computer model 351 00:13:18,100 --> 00:13:20,289 is very much separated that 352 00:13:20,290 --> 00:13:22,149 the wetwork, the bench work, the real 353 00:13:22,150 --> 00:13:23,499 work, whatever you call it. 354 00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:25,839 But in the information security 355 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,059 theoretical model could 356 00:13:28,060 --> 00:13:30,909 be more or less testable 357 00:13:30,910 --> 00:13:32,979 or in many cases could be tested. 358 00:13:32,980 --> 00:13:35,439 As far as you may 359 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,059 say, there are exceptions. 360 00:13:37,060 --> 00:13:38,979 I know about the supercomputers. 361 00:13:38,980 --> 00:13:41,289 I know that not all theoretical 362 00:13:41,290 --> 00:13:43,449 informatics could be tested 363 00:13:43,450 --> 00:13:45,609 on the spot, but as a general 364 00:13:45,610 --> 00:13:47,860 principle, it works more or less 365 00:13:48,970 --> 00:13:51,100 that particular laboratory. 366 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:54,739 As we know from Thek is often linked 367 00:13:54,740 --> 00:13:57,199 with particular collective 368 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,299 foot collective is a group of 369 00:13:59,300 --> 00:14:01,549 people not sure, as I said, 370 00:14:01,550 --> 00:14:04,039 similar epistemological patterns. 371 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,079 And in the case of hackerspace, that kind 372 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,959 of hacking collective 373 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:09,919 could be recognized. 374 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:11,809 For example, with accepting this 375 00:14:11,810 --> 00:14:14,119 principle is to tinker with something, 376 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,119 is to understand something to something. 377 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,219 It doesn't mean we would go 378 00:14:19,220 --> 00:14:20,220 with that 379 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,029 after some, don't worry. 380 00:14:23,030 --> 00:14:26,029 But it comes with kind of cost 381 00:14:26,030 --> 00:14:27,559 because in the observed hacking 382 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,229 communities, uh, 383 00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:31,879 they are often brilliant engineers. 384 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,739 They are often brilliant programmers or 385 00:14:33,740 --> 00:14:34,740 tinkerers. 386 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,849 I couldn't pay more respect to them, 387 00:14:37,850 --> 00:14:40,639 but more often than not, um, 388 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,009 they have some problems with stabilizing 389 00:14:43,010 --> 00:14:44,209 the knowledge. 390 00:14:44,210 --> 00:14:46,669 Often the manuals or 391 00:14:46,670 --> 00:14:49,039 tutorials or documentation 392 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,589 provided by hackers is limited 393 00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:53,719 or in the best case scenario 394 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:55,849 is often linked to the 395 00:14:55,850 --> 00:14:57,469 direct product. 396 00:14:57,470 --> 00:14:59,179 Hackers do not have much. 397 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,949 Patients or do not have 398 00:15:02,950 --> 00:15:05,109 much do 399 00:15:05,110 --> 00:15:07,659 not put much, much attention 400 00:15:07,660 --> 00:15:09,609 to general principles. 401 00:15:09,610 --> 00:15:11,709 This is the difference from many natural 402 00:15:11,710 --> 00:15:12,879 scientists. 403 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,069 Many natural science scientists are 404 00:15:15,070 --> 00:15:17,889 looking for general rules, 405 00:15:17,890 --> 00:15:20,169 generalizations, whereas 406 00:15:20,170 --> 00:15:23,679 hackers would go for application 407 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:24,999 for scientists. 408 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,279 Something is true if we could 409 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,649 make our general predictable model. 410 00:15:29,650 --> 00:15:31,959 And for Hocker, something is true 411 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,399 if it works. 412 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,589 Obviously, some engineers would do 413 00:15:35,590 --> 00:15:37,899 differently. Some 414 00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:40,059 some natural sciences artists also 415 00:15:40,060 --> 00:15:42,219 do differently, but we would go 416 00:15:42,220 --> 00:15:43,989 it in a moment. 417 00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:46,059 But if the hackers 418 00:15:46,060 --> 00:15:47,889 have problems with stability of the 419 00:15:47,890 --> 00:15:49,959 products of the hacker space, 420 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,879 what is the most stable product of the 421 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:53,379 hacker space? 422 00:15:53,380 --> 00:15:55,719 I think that the most stable 423 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,249 product of the hacker space are the 424 00:15:57,250 --> 00:15:58,250 hackers themselves. 425 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,269 Not many products of the hacker space 426 00:16:01,270 --> 00:16:03,789 have the similar amount of documentation 427 00:16:03,790 --> 00:16:06,549 or a similar amount of autonomy 428 00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:07,550 as the hackers. 429 00:16:09,420 --> 00:16:11,789 You code, you do not need much to operate 430 00:16:11,790 --> 00:16:13,889 the hacker, what you need much to operate 431 00:16:13,890 --> 00:16:14,890 the hocking products. 432 00:16:17,510 --> 00:16:19,609 And they are much how to say it from the 433 00:16:19,610 --> 00:16:21,529 sociological point of view, the hackers 434 00:16:21,530 --> 00:16:23,569 are much easier to handle than hacking 435 00:16:23,570 --> 00:16:25,039 products. 436 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,379 But the more comparisons 437 00:16:27,380 --> 00:16:29,599 with natural sciences, if 438 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,759 we I compared the data on the 439 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,009 hacker spaces collected by me in several 440 00:16:34,010 --> 00:16:35,779 hacker spaces in the period of three 441 00:16:35,780 --> 00:16:37,849 years and so on, so on, we have 442 00:16:37,850 --> 00:16:39,979 the data on CERN and 443 00:16:39,980 --> 00:16:41,869 Max Planck Institute collected by 444 00:16:41,870 --> 00:16:44,059 Cardinal Certina and we have some 445 00:16:44,060 --> 00:16:44,989 similarities. 446 00:16:44,990 --> 00:16:48,409 For example, compared with physics, 447 00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:51,079 Harker's more often than not. 448 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,759 What agreed that the knowledge belongs to 449 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,009 the whole community, the 450 00:16:55,010 --> 00:16:56,689 knowledge would be more distributed. 451 00:16:56,690 --> 00:16:58,759 One, and this is not 452 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,009 very surprising because we know that open 453 00:17:01,010 --> 00:17:02,329 source models are open. 454 00:17:02,330 --> 00:17:04,519 Hardware has some similar roots 455 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,669 with physics physics community in CERN. 456 00:17:07,670 --> 00:17:11,029 So the historical argument stands. 457 00:17:11,030 --> 00:17:13,249 But also what is 458 00:17:13,250 --> 00:17:15,469 less obvious is that hackers, 459 00:17:15,470 --> 00:17:17,719 as well as particle physicists, 460 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,969 also like to gossip, 461 00:17:19,970 --> 00:17:22,039 to talk about machines. 462 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,348 We know that many physical instruments 463 00:17:24,349 --> 00:17:27,139 operate more or less or are 464 00:17:27,140 --> 00:17:29,329 rated more or less, and 465 00:17:29,330 --> 00:17:31,879 they have good days and bad days. 466 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,009 Um, they are we do not 467 00:17:34,010 --> 00:17:35,629 always write about it in scientific 468 00:17:35,630 --> 00:17:37,729 papers. But if you remember 469 00:17:37,730 --> 00:17:40,249 about the issues of detection of 470 00:17:40,250 --> 00:17:42,319 Higgs boson and many 471 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,719 false claims or problems with CERN 472 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,539 announcement and their own limitations, 473 00:17:47,540 --> 00:17:50,209 you would see the trace of a of it. 474 00:17:50,210 --> 00:17:52,339 But comparing comparing Harker's with 475 00:17:52,340 --> 00:17:53,869 physics is rather obvious. 476 00:17:53,870 --> 00:17:55,939 We know that there is a hackerspace near 477 00:17:55,940 --> 00:17:58,309 CERN and many of the electronic people 478 00:17:58,310 --> 00:18:00,469 or physics people from CERN are members 479 00:18:00,470 --> 00:18:02,359 of that hackerspace. 480 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:03,919 It's really nothing new. 481 00:18:05,210 --> 00:18:07,609 But what is more interesting is comparing 482 00:18:07,610 --> 00:18:09,709 Harker's with biologists from Max Planck 483 00:18:09,710 --> 00:18:12,259 Institute is, for example, 484 00:18:12,260 --> 00:18:13,460 some biologists 485 00:18:14,510 --> 00:18:16,819 agree with the classical hucking 486 00:18:16,820 --> 00:18:19,369 stance not to understand 487 00:18:19,370 --> 00:18:21,230 something is to produce that. 488 00:18:22,530 --> 00:18:24,599 You do not have to devise a general 489 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,539 model, you just need to devise the tools 490 00:18:27,540 --> 00:18:29,819 if you are able to manipulate it, then 491 00:18:29,820 --> 00:18:30,820 you understand it. 492 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,499 Other thing would be the recognition of 493 00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:37,219 authorship in our important chunks, 494 00:18:37,220 --> 00:18:39,289 and the third thing would be the 495 00:18:39,290 --> 00:18:41,509 more attention to quick trial and 496 00:18:41,510 --> 00:18:44,119 error cycle in this particular 497 00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:45,229 biological setting. 498 00:18:45,230 --> 00:18:48,229 In the observed period, it was 499 00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:49,879 I'm open to discussion. 500 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,129 Many of the biologists 501 00:18:52,130 --> 00:18:54,229 doing the work, doing the bench work, 502 00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:55,490 doing the laboratory work, 503 00:18:56,690 --> 00:18:59,149 relied on quick trial and error cycle 504 00:18:59,150 --> 00:19:01,759 without doing much formal 505 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,889 calculations, without resolving 506 00:19:03,890 --> 00:19:05,719 much to formal models. 507 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,789 Just unlike the physicists, 508 00:19:07,790 --> 00:19:09,949 physicists, you know, you need a lot 509 00:19:09,950 --> 00:19:12,049 of simulations between before you 510 00:19:12,050 --> 00:19:13,789 put up put on your atlas. 511 00:19:16,790 --> 00:19:18,859 But this is rather interesting 512 00:19:18,860 --> 00:19:20,629 classical sociological stuff. 513 00:19:20,630 --> 00:19:22,999 But let's do something crazy. 514 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,399 Let's reverse the thinking. 515 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,649 We were looking at the hackers 516 00:19:27,650 --> 00:19:29,389 as they were scientists. 517 00:19:29,390 --> 00:19:30,559 We have some differences. 518 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,059 We have some similarities. 519 00:19:32,060 --> 00:19:34,459 But let's look at the hackers, 520 00:19:34,460 --> 00:19:36,619 as are some sort of 521 00:19:36,620 --> 00:19:38,509 social syphilis. 522 00:19:38,510 --> 00:19:39,510 I'm really sorry, 523 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,549 but we know 524 00:19:46,550 --> 00:19:49,909 that syphilis, in the time of Fleck 525 00:19:49,910 --> 00:19:52,789 shown something about the society, 526 00:19:52,790 --> 00:19:55,069 for example, shown that many 527 00:19:55,070 --> 00:19:57,139 of respected middle aged 528 00:19:57,140 --> 00:19:59,749 men were not as faithful 529 00:19:59,750 --> 00:20:01,429 as they claimed to be. 530 00:20:03,260 --> 00:20:05,509 It shows something about the need 531 00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:07,729 of public health care. 532 00:20:07,730 --> 00:20:09,829 It also shows something about who 533 00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:12,049 knows, who really knows something 534 00:20:12,050 --> 00:20:14,749 about small tiny box 535 00:20:14,750 --> 00:20:17,869 in the invisible to other people. 536 00:20:17,870 --> 00:20:19,969 And up to some extent, 537 00:20:19,970 --> 00:20:22,189 and this is a metaphor, you know, I 538 00:20:22,190 --> 00:20:24,319 do not claim that hackers are bacteria. 539 00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:28,489 I also think that hackers 540 00:20:28,490 --> 00:20:30,200 is a kind of but 541 00:20:33,950 --> 00:20:36,019 might act as a bacteria 542 00:20:36,020 --> 00:20:38,299 in a certain settings in a scale 543 00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:39,300 of society 544 00:20:40,610 --> 00:20:42,349 because they revealed some things that 545 00:20:42,350 --> 00:20:43,939 otherwise would be hidden. 546 00:20:43,940 --> 00:20:46,069 And what is also a similarity 547 00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:48,319 is that hackers do not need our 548 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,109 knowledge about the whole system. 549 00:20:51,110 --> 00:20:53,269 They do not need to understand the 550 00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:55,489 whole setting. 551 00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:57,289 Physicists need all the data. 552 00:20:57,290 --> 00:20:59,149 Biologists need all the data. 553 00:20:59,150 --> 00:21:01,429 But syphilis and hackers 554 00:21:01,430 --> 00:21:03,499 need only one access point. 555 00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:04,579 One entry point. 556 00:21:05,980 --> 00:21:08,679 This is obviously classical, 557 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,989 no lateral symmetry between attacker 558 00:21:10,990 --> 00:21:13,809 and defender and hero in training, 559 00:21:13,810 --> 00:21:15,939 treating some hackers as attackers. 560 00:21:15,940 --> 00:21:17,900 But for the sake of metaphor, let it be. 561 00:21:19,690 --> 00:21:20,690 What if 562 00:21:21,910 --> 00:21:24,399 if some kind of hacking 563 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,559 history or history 564 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,019 of hackers or social your hacker 565 00:21:29,020 --> 00:21:31,569 resemble up to some extent 566 00:21:31,570 --> 00:21:34,779 history of syphilis and biologists? 567 00:21:34,780 --> 00:21:36,939 Maybe we could also 568 00:21:36,940 --> 00:21:39,219 think or maybe we would see that 569 00:21:39,220 --> 00:21:41,709 some kind of genetics, genetics 570 00:21:41,710 --> 00:21:44,019 of exploits or 571 00:21:44,020 --> 00:21:45,999 genetics of hacker spaces. 572 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,279 And this is made because people 573 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,649 working on security are working 574 00:21:50,650 --> 00:21:52,749 on different generations of 575 00:21:52,750 --> 00:21:54,999 bugs and evolutions of bugs and 576 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,439 people working on hacker spaces. 577 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,449 Talk about generation of hacker spaces, 578 00:21:58,450 --> 00:21:59,619 for example, Matsoukas. 579 00:22:01,030 --> 00:22:03,339 But also we know 580 00:22:03,340 --> 00:22:05,379 that many of the natural sciences, for 581 00:22:05,380 --> 00:22:07,509 example, chemistry or medical data, 582 00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:09,789 moved to automation discovery systems 583 00:22:09,790 --> 00:22:11,919 based on machine learning. 584 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,019 I would be very much 585 00:22:14,020 --> 00:22:16,329 amazed if some 586 00:22:16,330 --> 00:22:18,519 parties weren't breathing 587 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,449 machine learning systems on exploit and 588 00:22:20,450 --> 00:22:22,389 parts of Patris. 589 00:22:22,390 --> 00:22:24,519 We have automatic discovery systems 590 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:25,539 on biology. 591 00:22:25,540 --> 00:22:27,369 We have automatic discovery systems in 592 00:22:27,370 --> 00:22:29,889 chemistry, in medical data. 593 00:22:29,890 --> 00:22:32,049 I am almost sure that there is 594 00:22:32,050 --> 00:22:34,239 a beast in the Google 595 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,459 or in the NSA that we that 596 00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:38,559 it's feeding on exploits, that 597 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,809 it's feeding on blog posts 598 00:22:40,810 --> 00:22:42,219 and that it's feeding on this 599 00:22:42,220 --> 00:22:43,510 presentation at this moment. 600 00:22:44,650 --> 00:22:46,809 But here comes 601 00:22:46,810 --> 00:22:49,659 the interesting part. 602 00:22:49,660 --> 00:22:52,569 I said that hackers some half 603 00:22:52,570 --> 00:22:54,129 or sometimes have problems with 604 00:22:54,130 --> 00:22:55,629 stability. 605 00:22:55,630 --> 00:22:58,329 Reports produced by hacker spaces 606 00:22:58,330 --> 00:23:01,089 are less standardized, 607 00:23:01,090 --> 00:23:03,159 standardized than inscriptions 608 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,109 and or reports or scientific papers 609 00:23:05,110 --> 00:23:07,979 presented by the formal 610 00:23:07,980 --> 00:23:09,399 laboratories. 611 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,709 It means that knowledge from the 612 00:23:11,710 --> 00:23:13,869 formal physics laboratory 613 00:23:13,870 --> 00:23:16,239 is much more easier to translate 614 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,250 into machine learning system. 615 00:23:19,370 --> 00:23:21,949 It means that it's easier to standardize 616 00:23:21,950 --> 00:23:24,379 knowledge and it's me, 617 00:23:24,380 --> 00:23:26,809 but on the other hand, as my friend 618 00:23:26,810 --> 00:23:29,209 put it to me, we still feeding 619 00:23:29,210 --> 00:23:31,249 the computers knowledge about the 620 00:23:31,250 --> 00:23:32,299 computers. 621 00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:34,639 So it's the translation part is easier. 622 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,459 So it it goes both ways. 623 00:23:37,460 --> 00:23:39,769 But nevertheless, the issue 624 00:23:39,770 --> 00:23:41,839 of standardization in this 625 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:43,190 kind in this part, 626 00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:46,669 it's no longer a bug, 627 00:23:46,670 --> 00:23:48,739 it's a feature or it's it's 628 00:23:48,740 --> 00:23:51,049 an issue less 629 00:23:51,050 --> 00:23:52,549 standardized knowledge. 630 00:23:52,550 --> 00:23:55,129 You know, the whole set 631 00:23:55,130 --> 00:23:58,009 of blog posts, tutorials, 632 00:23:58,010 --> 00:24:00,349 YouTube's gossip's CTF 633 00:24:00,350 --> 00:24:03,109 reports, whatever, they do not resemble 634 00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:05,329 scientific papers, but maybe this 635 00:24:05,330 --> 00:24:06,919 is good bye. 636 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:08,239 Maybe this is what we need. 637 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,369 So I know that 638 00:24:12,370 --> 00:24:14,769 people have found some cure 639 00:24:14,770 --> 00:24:16,639 for syphilis. 640 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:17,640 It's good, 641 00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:21,769 but I really hope that 642 00:24:21,770 --> 00:24:23,929 and when they found that cure for 643 00:24:23,930 --> 00:24:26,359 syphilis, many of the collectives 644 00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:28,639 collaborated, they emerged, they 645 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,459 changed, they were forced to collaborate. 646 00:24:31,460 --> 00:24:33,739 They need to understand and translate 647 00:24:33,740 --> 00:24:36,049 from one mode of thinking, one 648 00:24:36,050 --> 00:24:38,719 mode of knowledge production to another. 649 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,909 They learned to talk to each other and 650 00:24:40,910 --> 00:24:43,309 they created something bigger. 651 00:24:43,310 --> 00:24:45,919 I really hope that some hackers 652 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,199 would start up 653 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,079 or will continue translating 654 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,209 to them to other types of 655 00:24:53,210 --> 00:24:54,889 knowledge production, for example, 656 00:24:54,890 --> 00:24:56,659 knowledge production. But journalists, we 657 00:24:56,660 --> 00:24:58,969 know that it is acquiring the knowledge 658 00:24:58,970 --> 00:25:00,679 production by the academic people. 659 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,689 We know that is it's acquiring and so on 660 00:25:02,690 --> 00:25:03,859 and so on. 661 00:25:03,860 --> 00:25:05,989 And the last thing I really hope 662 00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:08,059 not unlike the syphilis 663 00:25:08,060 --> 00:25:10,700 and unlike the history of FLAC, 664 00:25:11,900 --> 00:25:13,729 I really hope that Hawking would not be 665 00:25:13,730 --> 00:25:15,109 cured. 666 00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:17,299 Because we do not need the syphilis, but 667 00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:19,579 we need the hackers, and 668 00:25:19,580 --> 00:25:22,279 I really wish on this point, 669 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,439 um, I really wish to 670 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,629 express my sincere gratitude to all 671 00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:28,789 the participants of my study for 672 00:25:28,790 --> 00:25:30,889 the three years I observed you and 673 00:25:30,890 --> 00:25:32,599 you granted me the privilege to be 674 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,699 observed. You agree 675 00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:36,079 to give interviews. 676 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,029 And I am really grateful for that. 677 00:25:38,030 --> 00:25:39,030 Thank you very much. 678 00:25:49,980 --> 00:25:51,629 Thank you very much, Martin, fire talk 679 00:25:51,630 --> 00:25:53,429 and all your insights, we luckily have 680 00:25:53,430 --> 00:25:55,229 five minutes left for questions and 681 00:25:55,230 --> 00:25:56,909 answers. So if you have any questions, 682 00:25:56,910 --> 00:25:58,589 please move to the microphones that we 683 00:25:58,590 --> 00:26:00,569 have throughout the room, please. 684 00:26:00,570 --> 00:26:01,570 Your first question, 685 00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:06,029 please move close microphone this 686 00:26:06,030 --> 00:26:06,639 working. 687 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,729 Yeah, it is. OK, so in your 688 00:26:08,730 --> 00:26:10,619 experience doing this research, did you 689 00:26:10,620 --> 00:26:13,409 ever find hackers in a research lab? 690 00:26:13,410 --> 00:26:15,809 And if you found any positive effect 691 00:26:15,810 --> 00:26:18,119 of this and if not and you ran 692 00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:19,829 a simulation in your head, what do you 693 00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:21,749 think would be a positive outcome of 694 00:26:21,750 --> 00:26:23,609 having hackers in a research lab? 695 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,569 I've run into several accounts, 696 00:26:27,570 --> 00:26:29,189 for example, during this Congress. 697 00:26:29,190 --> 00:26:31,169 One, people have two affiliations. 698 00:26:31,170 --> 00:26:32,819 They were affiliated in particular 699 00:26:32,820 --> 00:26:34,679 hacking collective, and at the same time, 700 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,379 they were active in the academic field. 701 00:26:37,380 --> 00:26:40,149 We know that that people exist. 702 00:26:40,150 --> 00:26:42,389 Um, I haven't met 703 00:26:42,390 --> 00:26:44,759 many of them, but I met several 704 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,919 scientists, turned hackers or 705 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,139 hackers learning some things from 706 00:26:49,140 --> 00:26:50,399 science. 707 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,559 And I think this is beneficial. 708 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,899 If you are more interested in that, 709 00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:57,119 please look into my papers about hacking 710 00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:58,979 collective as a trading zone. 711 00:26:58,980 --> 00:27:01,559 I have a special part of 712 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,019 research done on the translation 713 00:27:04,020 --> 00:27:05,210 intergroup issues. 714 00:27:06,270 --> 00:27:07,019 Thank you very much. 715 00:27:07,020 --> 00:27:09,389 Second question, um, you said 716 00:27:09,390 --> 00:27:11,699 that hackers are 717 00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:14,849 like syphilis through to the society 718 00:27:14,850 --> 00:27:17,249 and I'm sorry, but I didn't understand 719 00:27:17,250 --> 00:27:19,889 in which radio the syphilis. 720 00:27:19,890 --> 00:27:21,119 Can you repeat it? 721 00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:22,120 Yeah, of course. 722 00:27:23,130 --> 00:27:24,809 This is a metaphor. 723 00:27:24,810 --> 00:27:25,890 Uh, I really 724 00:27:28,140 --> 00:27:30,449 like the hackers sometime 725 00:27:30,450 --> 00:27:32,579 in some sense act as a 726 00:27:32,580 --> 00:27:34,769 syphilis because 727 00:27:34,770 --> 00:27:37,169 first of all, they reveal 728 00:27:37,170 --> 00:27:39,479 some things about society 729 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,869 that others otherwise would be hidden. 730 00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:45,629 Second, in order to see 731 00:27:45,630 --> 00:27:47,789 the actions of 732 00:27:47,790 --> 00:27:50,369 the hackers, you need a different 733 00:27:50,370 --> 00:27:51,929 collective. 734 00:27:51,930 --> 00:27:54,739 And what is peculiar, I haven't talked 735 00:27:54,740 --> 00:27:56,909 much about it, but this is 736 00:27:56,910 --> 00:27:59,249 the moment. In some cases, 737 00:27:59,250 --> 00:28:01,949 the same people that are reacting 738 00:28:01,950 --> 00:28:03,629 would be the same. Collect the 739 00:28:03,630 --> 00:28:04,559 collective. 740 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:05,939 That would be the cause. 741 00:28:05,940 --> 00:28:08,039 And this is characteristic for hackers 742 00:28:09,060 --> 00:28:11,219 because some actions done by the 743 00:28:11,220 --> 00:28:13,979 hackers could only be understood 744 00:28:13,980 --> 00:28:15,569 within the hacking community. 745 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,529 So that that is the extent of metaphor, 746 00:28:19,530 --> 00:28:21,779 this is not about causing harm 747 00:28:21,780 --> 00:28:24,749 or any kind of negative 748 00:28:24,750 --> 00:28:26,690 stereotypes connected with Hocker. 749 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,729 Thank you. Do we have any other 750 00:28:29,730 --> 00:28:31,679 questions? We still have some time left. 751 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,199 So if you have a question or comment, 752 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,549 feel free to move to one of the 753 00:28:35,550 --> 00:28:36,550 microphones. 754 00:28:38,620 --> 00:28:40,849 It seems to me that this is not the case, 755 00:28:40,850 --> 00:28:42,669 so please give another warm round of 756 00:28:42,670 --> 00:28:44,109 applause to Martin. Thank you very much 757 00:28:44,110 --> 00:28:45,110 for your talk.