0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/380 Thanks! 1 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,489 I know you don't think that works 2 00:00:14,490 --> 00:00:17,009 great. Yeah, welcome to our talk. 3 00:00:17,010 --> 00:00:19,079 We will talk about Natalie, 4 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:21,299 obviously with a focus 5 00:00:21,300 --> 00:00:22,829 on what happened in the last year and 6 00:00:22,830 --> 00:00:24,869 also what happened in the past years in 7 00:00:24,870 --> 00:00:26,729 the Netherlands, particularly because 8 00:00:26,730 --> 00:00:29,339 they have a net neutrality law 9 00:00:29,340 --> 00:00:30,449 for quite some time now. 10 00:00:30,450 --> 00:00:32,669 And we want to look at experience, what 11 00:00:32,670 --> 00:00:34,739 lessons can be learned from it, and 12 00:00:34,740 --> 00:00:36,989 also look at more global and European 13 00:00:36,990 --> 00:00:38,489 perspective. 14 00:00:38,490 --> 00:00:40,679 But first to us, 15 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:42,599 too, my name is Thomas Cloninger. 16 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,699 I based in Vienna and 17 00:00:44,700 --> 00:00:45,749 therefore in for City. 18 00:00:45,750 --> 00:00:46,750 And that's what I hate. 19 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:49,709 I'm also a member of the Catholic Church 20 00:00:49,710 --> 00:00:52,229 of Germany and I had the privilege 21 00:00:52,230 --> 00:00:54,779 to work with European digital rights 22 00:00:54,780 --> 00:00:56,879 in their Brussels office 23 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,189 during the hot phase of the negotiations 24 00:00:59,190 --> 00:01:01,349 about telecoms, single market proposal, 25 00:01:01,350 --> 00:01:03,479 the net neutrality law in Europe that 26 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:04,480 we will talk about. 27 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:07,919 So I'm ready and I'm working 28 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:09,479 for bits of freedom. 29 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,549 We are a Dutch civil rights 30 00:01:11,550 --> 00:01:13,319 organization, and 31 00:01:14,580 --> 00:01:16,649 because lots of topics which 32 00:01:16,650 --> 00:01:17,849 have an impact on the Netherlands are 33 00:01:17,850 --> 00:01:20,279 coming from a European level, 34 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,289 we are also working a lot in Brussels 35 00:01:22,290 --> 00:01:24,150 with Edry and other organizations. 36 00:01:25,770 --> 00:01:27,839 And at the end of this 37 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:29,729 talk, we would like you to remember two 38 00:01:29,730 --> 00:01:30,730 things. 39 00:01:31,500 --> 00:01:33,239 So the first thing would be ordinary 40 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,129 citizens put inevitability on the 41 00:01:35,130 --> 00:01:37,199 political agenda before and 42 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:38,310 we need to do that again. 43 00:01:39,330 --> 00:01:41,639 The second thing I want you to remember 44 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,979 when you leave this hole is 45 00:01:43,980 --> 00:01:46,199 there are there are a number of 46 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,299 unsolved issues and we 47 00:01:48,300 --> 00:01:51,239 need your expertize to solve those 48 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,249 problems. But first, let's get back to 49 00:01:53,250 --> 00:01:55,349 what is the 50 00:01:55,350 --> 00:01:55,959 problem. 51 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:57,869 Yeah, we have a simple definition here 52 00:01:57,870 --> 00:01:59,849 from this is net neutrality dot org, 53 00:01:59,850 --> 00:02:01,769 which is on the website of the Global 54 00:02:01,770 --> 00:02:04,379 Coalition on net neutrality, where NGOs 55 00:02:04,380 --> 00:02:06,629 from all around the world assemble to 56 00:02:06,630 --> 00:02:08,939 fight more and more globalized battle 57 00:02:08,940 --> 00:02:11,069 when it comes to open Internet 58 00:02:11,070 --> 00:02:12,719 and freedom online. 59 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:14,969 And basically, it states that we have 60 00:02:14,970 --> 00:02:17,159 to keep the Internet open 61 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,409 as a platform and 62 00:02:19,410 --> 00:02:21,779 prevent discrimination from all sorts. 63 00:02:22,980 --> 00:02:25,049 You can also look at net neutrality from 64 00:02:25,050 --> 00:02:26,219 its principles. 65 00:02:26,220 --> 00:02:29,009 And there are really three principles. 66 00:02:29,010 --> 00:02:31,619 First is end to end, so 67 00:02:31,620 --> 00:02:33,779 to Internet different and other 68 00:02:33,780 --> 00:02:35,069 networks like, for example, the TV 69 00:02:35,070 --> 00:02:36,989 network is a network of peers there. 70 00:02:36,990 --> 00:02:39,089 Every end note as the possibility 71 00:02:39,090 --> 00:02:41,009 to make a connection to any other end 72 00:02:41,010 --> 00:02:43,349 note. And there is no centralized 73 00:02:43,350 --> 00:02:45,419 control. There is no one single 74 00:02:45,420 --> 00:02:47,519 authorization hub where we have to 75 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:48,750 register, where I have to 76 00:02:49,980 --> 00:02:52,199 ask for allowance for every connection 77 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:53,879 that I want to establish. 78 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,099 Instead, it's left up to the endnotes 79 00:02:56,100 --> 00:02:58,739 to decide whether a connection 80 00:02:58,740 --> 00:03:01,199 is legitimate, is correct, is legal. 81 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,659 This is both a technological decision. 82 00:03:03,660 --> 00:03:04,949 Back in the days when the Internet was 83 00:03:04,950 --> 00:03:07,079 invented, it served the purpose 84 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,149 of implementing 85 00:03:09,150 --> 00:03:10,739 the optimal network design because we 86 00:03:10,740 --> 00:03:12,719 didn't have to calculate the power to 87 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,149 make decisions in the natural cops. 88 00:03:15,150 --> 00:03:17,609 But it's also a political decision about 89 00:03:17,610 --> 00:03:19,709 disabling control within the 90 00:03:19,710 --> 00:03:20,710 network. 91 00:03:21,300 --> 00:03:23,369 The second principle, which is tied into 92 00:03:23,370 --> 00:03:25,019 that is the best effort. 93 00:03:25,020 --> 00:03:27,119 Best effort means that within 94 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,819 the Internet, within the transit nodes, 95 00:03:29,820 --> 00:03:31,979 there should be no differentiation 96 00:03:31,980 --> 00:03:32,909 between packages. 97 00:03:32,910 --> 00:03:34,979 So every data packet is 98 00:03:34,980 --> 00:03:36,539 transmitted like every other, and there 99 00:03:36,540 --> 00:03:38,219 should be no distinction based on the 100 00:03:38,220 --> 00:03:40,309 protocol or the source or 101 00:03:40,310 --> 00:03:43,049 the destination or 102 00:03:43,050 --> 00:03:45,089 legality of the packages. 103 00:03:45,090 --> 00:03:47,579 This best effort principle also applies 104 00:03:47,580 --> 00:03:49,739 not only to technical discrimination, but 105 00:03:49,740 --> 00:03:52,109 also to economic discriminations. 106 00:03:52,110 --> 00:03:54,479 Because what we see increasingly is 107 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,639 that the price of certain data 108 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,859 packages varies that some 109 00:03:58,860 --> 00:04:00,639 packages cost more than others. 110 00:04:01,650 --> 00:04:04,109 There's a practice called zero rating 111 00:04:04,110 --> 00:04:06,389 where certain services 112 00:04:06,390 --> 00:04:08,249 are excluded from your monthly data cap. 113 00:04:08,250 --> 00:04:10,259 So even if you have no megabytes left for 114 00:04:10,260 --> 00:04:12,449 this month, you can still use Facebook 115 00:04:12,450 --> 00:04:14,819 or Spotify and stuff like that. 116 00:04:14,820 --> 00:04:16,949 And there's a third principle that 117 00:04:16,950 --> 00:04:18,419 is essential for understanding the 118 00:04:18,420 --> 00:04:20,909 debate. And that's the reason why 119 00:04:20,910 --> 00:04:23,249 we have to fight this fight, because 120 00:04:23,250 --> 00:04:25,619 providers want to vertically integrate 121 00:04:25,620 --> 00:04:27,899 along the value chain of their network. 122 00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:30,089 They see how much money can be made 123 00:04:30,090 --> 00:04:32,459 with us as consumers, with us, 124 00:04:32,460 --> 00:04:34,589 as users who give away their data. 125 00:04:34,590 --> 00:04:35,909 And they just want to have a piece of the 126 00:04:35,910 --> 00:04:37,979 cake. They want to have a piece 127 00:04:37,980 --> 00:04:40,109 of the profits that Google or Amazon are 128 00:04:40,110 --> 00:04:42,449 making with us over their network. 129 00:04:42,450 --> 00:04:44,789 So in a way, they see us as their captive 130 00:04:44,790 --> 00:04:47,129 audience and their goal is to 131 00:04:47,130 --> 00:04:49,379 establish a kind of double sided market 132 00:04:49,380 --> 00:04:51,509 where they sell us 133 00:04:51,510 --> 00:04:53,969 their customers to the service providers 134 00:04:53,970 --> 00:04:56,159 that want to reach us or 135 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,019 don't just sell us Internet instead deals 136 00:04:58,020 --> 00:04:59,519 or want to sell us each individual 137 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,079 service that we want to use. 138 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,499 We put this in pictures and 139 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:06,509 you might know that because that's a very 140 00:05:06,510 --> 00:05:08,609 popular image was created several years 141 00:05:08,610 --> 00:05:11,259 ago and we were often called female. 142 00:05:11,260 --> 00:05:12,889 As for putting something like that up, 143 00:05:12,890 --> 00:05:14,589 you know, like you have to pay if you 144 00:05:14,590 --> 00:05:16,719 want to play World of Warcraft or 145 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,059 if you want to read The New York Times. 146 00:05:19,060 --> 00:05:21,129 So every single service suddenly has 147 00:05:21,130 --> 00:05:22,300 a price tag on the Internet. 148 00:05:23,470 --> 00:05:26,079 But sadly, this has become reality. 149 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,149 This is an offer of T-Mobile, 150 00:05:28,150 --> 00:05:29,499 Hungary. 151 00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:32,199 They are even worse offers from 152 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,749 Orange, France, where you have 153 00:05:34,750 --> 00:05:36,939 each individual type of service with 154 00:05:36,940 --> 00:05:39,429 a price that is actually not euros D-R 155 00:05:39,430 --> 00:05:41,440 Hungarian forint but 156 00:05:43,510 --> 00:05:44,669 Google Translate. Thank you. 157 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,189 But we have seen a 158 00:05:48,190 --> 00:05:50,319 huge increase in 159 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,689 the products in Europe that violate 160 00:05:52,690 --> 00:05:53,829 net neutrality. 161 00:05:53,830 --> 00:05:55,659 According to the Digital Fuel Monitor. 162 00:05:55,660 --> 00:05:58,299 We are a little bit above hundred 163 00:05:58,300 --> 00:06:00,999 of such net neutrality violating products 164 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:02,409 right now in Europe. 165 00:06:02,410 --> 00:06:04,329 So this is a debate which is happening 166 00:06:04,330 --> 00:06:06,729 really fast and the market is creating 167 00:06:06,730 --> 00:06:07,730 facts. 168 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:10,749 Delena politicians wait to establish 169 00:06:10,750 --> 00:06:12,159 any meaningful legislation that would 170 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,319 safeguard it in the long run, 171 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,719 their window of opportunity to just 172 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,489 create new facts and abolish the 173 00:06:18,490 --> 00:06:20,739 principle of net neutrality. 174 00:06:20,740 --> 00:06:22,899 But now on the bright side to 175 00:06:22,900 --> 00:06:24,159 the Netherlands. 176 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:25,959 So that doesn't happen if you have an 177 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:27,879 energy enshrined by law. 178 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:28,809 And that's what happened in the 179 00:06:28,810 --> 00:06:29,810 Netherlands. 180 00:06:30,340 --> 00:06:32,889 We have this law since 2013 181 00:06:34,060 --> 00:06:37,209 when in effect, beginning of 2013. 182 00:06:37,210 --> 00:06:39,309 So we have this law now for about 183 00:06:39,310 --> 00:06:40,310 two years 184 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,049 that didn't come, that 185 00:06:44,050 --> 00:06:46,359 didn't just fall out from the sky. 186 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,579 We, uh, the law 187 00:06:48,580 --> 00:06:50,679 became came there because after 188 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,409 a long debate and 189 00:06:53,410 --> 00:06:55,509 that debate or so the debate, we couldn't 190 00:06:55,510 --> 00:06:57,879 do that by our own we as bits of freedom. 191 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:59,889 We have been doing this with lots of work 192 00:06:59,890 --> 00:07:00,890 with volunteers. 193 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,779 So two years before this debate 194 00:07:04,780 --> 00:07:07,419 started, we already wrote down a 195 00:07:07,420 --> 00:07:09,909 position paper in which we said 196 00:07:09,910 --> 00:07:12,489 why neutrality is important and 197 00:07:12,490 --> 00:07:14,619 how it should how it should look like 198 00:07:14,620 --> 00:07:16,449 that position paper was written with the 199 00:07:16,450 --> 00:07:18,129 help of volunteers. 200 00:07:18,130 --> 00:07:20,319 And when KPN 201 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,569 announced they were thinking 202 00:07:22,570 --> 00:07:24,769 they were planning to to, 203 00:07:24,770 --> 00:07:27,129 uh, to monetize the use of WhatsApp 204 00:07:27,130 --> 00:07:29,949 by their users, um, 205 00:07:29,950 --> 00:07:32,169 people got angry and 206 00:07:32,170 --> 00:07:33,979 we were able to build a campaign site and 207 00:07:33,980 --> 00:07:36,039 have those people explain their 208 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,109 angriness with the politicians, with 209 00:07:38,110 --> 00:07:40,749 members of parliament, and only because 210 00:07:40,750 --> 00:07:42,859 all those people did that, um, 211 00:07:42,860 --> 00:07:44,949 it became a topic on a political 212 00:07:44,950 --> 00:07:46,269 agenda. 213 00:07:46,270 --> 00:07:47,589 And that's very important to remember, 214 00:07:47,590 --> 00:07:50,319 because it will it shows that 215 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,479 if you are angry 216 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,489 about something and you tell politicians 217 00:07:54,490 --> 00:07:56,949 about it, then something can change. 218 00:07:56,950 --> 00:07:59,149 And without you speaking out, the 219 00:07:59,150 --> 00:08:00,150 change will not happen. 220 00:08:01,750 --> 00:08:02,750 So. 221 00:08:04,170 --> 00:08:06,269 Then what actually we have 222 00:08:06,270 --> 00:08:08,429 in law to 223 00:08:08,430 --> 00:08:10,409 read a law, it's very important to look 224 00:08:10,410 --> 00:08:13,169 first at the explanatory memorandum, 225 00:08:13,170 --> 00:08:15,419 it's a kind of addendum to the law 226 00:08:15,420 --> 00:08:17,549 and which explains why you have 227 00:08:17,550 --> 00:08:19,709 this law. And in the Netherlands 228 00:08:19,710 --> 00:08:21,899 law, that is explanatory memorandum 229 00:08:21,900 --> 00:08:22,889 is very clear. 230 00:08:22,890 --> 00:08:25,289 It says the net neutrality article 231 00:08:25,290 --> 00:08:27,539 aims to maximize the choice and freedom 232 00:08:27,540 --> 00:08:29,309 of expression on the Internet for end 233 00:08:29,310 --> 00:08:30,749 users. 234 00:08:30,750 --> 00:08:32,969 It also says that end users 235 00:08:32,970 --> 00:08:34,558 should be able to decide what content 236 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,239 they want to send and receive. 237 00:08:37,650 --> 00:08:38,759 So if there is 238 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:41,788 something unclear about a text in the 239 00:08:41,789 --> 00:08:42,899 law, if there are 240 00:08:43,980 --> 00:08:46,649 different interpretations of the law, 241 00:08:46,650 --> 00:08:48,179 then the lawyers will look at this 242 00:08:48,180 --> 00:08:50,399 explanatory memorandum to see how 243 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,529 it should be, how they should 244 00:08:52,530 --> 00:08:53,530 decide on that. 245 00:08:54,270 --> 00:08:56,699 So this 246 00:08:56,700 --> 00:08:58,709 text in its explanatory memorandum is a 247 00:08:58,710 --> 00:09:01,199 very important part of the law. 248 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,419 The law itself says providers of 249 00:09:03,420 --> 00:09:05,729 Internet access services do not hinder 250 00:09:05,730 --> 00:09:07,889 or slow down applications and services 251 00:09:07,890 --> 00:09:08,890 on the Internet. 252 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:10,720 So. 253 00:09:11,370 --> 00:09:13,439 They are not allowed to block access 254 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:14,999 to specific websites, they are not 255 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,129 allowed to throttle access 256 00:09:17,130 --> 00:09:19,229 to other websites, and of 257 00:09:19,230 --> 00:09:20,789 course, this is a rule. 258 00:09:20,790 --> 00:09:22,049 So there are exceptions. 259 00:09:22,050 --> 00:09:23,189 And in this case, there are four 260 00:09:23,190 --> 00:09:24,809 exceptions. I will mention two of them. 261 00:09:26,190 --> 00:09:28,439 The first exception is to minimize 262 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,509 the effects of congestion. 263 00:09:30,510 --> 00:09:32,639 So think of a 264 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,919 location where you have only 265 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:36,719 a limited amount of capacity. 266 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:38,870 Think of a music festival. 267 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,449 You have lots of users in 268 00:09:42,450 --> 00:09:44,489 a very short period and on a temporary, 269 00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:47,909 if temporary, lots of users in a small 270 00:09:47,910 --> 00:09:49,979 location. And the capacity 271 00:09:49,980 --> 00:09:52,409 of network may not be sufficient 272 00:09:52,410 --> 00:09:54,659 for the use for all of the 273 00:09:54,660 --> 00:09:56,039 users. 274 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,099 So the network operator in that case may 275 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:01,319 restrict traffic, 276 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:02,369 certain traffic. 277 00:10:02,370 --> 00:10:04,379 He may restrict access to certain 278 00:10:04,380 --> 00:10:05,380 websites. 279 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,279 But and that's the second half of the 280 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,529 sentence, it's important then 281 00:10:10,530 --> 00:10:12,659 that equal types of traffic 282 00:10:12,660 --> 00:10:15,029 that they are treated equally 283 00:10:15,030 --> 00:10:17,339 and that means if such 284 00:10:17,340 --> 00:10:19,619 a network operator would decide to block 285 00:10:19,620 --> 00:10:21,929 access to YouTube, he would also 286 00:10:21,930 --> 00:10:24,509 need to, uh, to block access to 287 00:10:24,510 --> 00:10:26,640 similar websites like the video. 288 00:10:30,700 --> 00:10:34,149 A second exception is to preserve 289 00:10:34,150 --> 00:10:36,129 the integrity and security of the network 290 00:10:36,130 --> 00:10:38,199 and, um, and, uh, the 291 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,719 surface of the provider or the customer 292 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:41,709 premises equipment. 293 00:10:41,710 --> 00:10:44,010 So, uh, director of the customer, 294 00:10:45,190 --> 00:10:47,859 think of a twenty four that is hijacked 295 00:10:47,860 --> 00:10:50,109 and that is only serving, uh, nasty 296 00:10:50,110 --> 00:10:52,479 malware and a nasty malware, maybe, 297 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,579 um, maybe of harm to 298 00:10:54,580 --> 00:10:57,069 the um to the network. 299 00:10:57,070 --> 00:10:59,169 In that case, um, 300 00:10:59,170 --> 00:11:01,479 the provider may choose 301 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,489 to block access to the network. 302 00:11:06,750 --> 00:11:08,279 And then there's one other part of the 303 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,109 provision, which is very important, it's 304 00:11:10,110 --> 00:11:12,179 this one and says providers do not 305 00:11:12,180 --> 00:11:14,399 make the price dependent on the services 306 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,109 or the applications which are offered or 307 00:11:16,110 --> 00:11:17,039 used. 308 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,139 So a provider is in the not 309 00:11:19,140 --> 00:11:20,140 allowed to 310 00:11:21,630 --> 00:11:23,999 allow a story to publish 311 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,960 or to make available a 312 00:11:27,250 --> 00:11:29,309 a new service, which is 313 00:11:29,310 --> 00:11:30,839 competitive to the ones already on the 314 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,909 Internet and not charge for that 315 00:11:32,910 --> 00:11:34,829 one while charging for the other ones. 316 00:11:34,830 --> 00:11:37,229 Or if they get into agreement 317 00:11:37,230 --> 00:11:39,299 with, for example, Spotify not 318 00:11:39,300 --> 00:11:40,889 charging for Spotify. 319 00:11:40,890 --> 00:11:42,989 So that will be in just 320 00:11:42,990 --> 00:11:44,999 like terms already explained, it will be 321 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,000 not. 322 00:11:47,580 --> 00:11:49,799 So that would not get off from the data 323 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:50,800 cap you have. 324 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:55,199 So how does that compare to other laws 325 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:56,159 around the world? 326 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,989 Yeah, um, we made 327 00:11:58,990 --> 00:12:01,139 yeah, we made a little comparison 328 00:12:01,140 --> 00:12:03,569 chart about how these different 329 00:12:03,570 --> 00:12:05,759 laws compare 330 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:06,959 to each other. 331 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,179 And here you have like 332 00:12:09,180 --> 00:12:11,159 most of the net neutrality legislations 333 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:12,989 that are around the world right now. 334 00:12:12,990 --> 00:12:15,569 And it's not only just loss, 335 00:12:15,570 --> 00:12:17,799 it's also what we call soft law, like 336 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,009 self-regulation, where the regulator 337 00:12:20,010 --> 00:12:22,199 and the ISPs come together and 338 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:23,159 make some rules. 339 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,319 And then the ISP 340 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,449 decides that he wants to follow this like 341 00:12:27,450 --> 00:12:28,499 a little bit like corporate social 342 00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:30,329 responsibility. 343 00:12:30,330 --> 00:12:32,279 We decided we don't want to do the nasty 344 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,249 stuff these soft laws 345 00:12:35,250 --> 00:12:37,409 usually have. The big problem that they 346 00:12:37,410 --> 00:12:39,599 are not enforceable are Norway 347 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,369 was the first country in the world to do 348 00:12:41,370 --> 00:12:42,719 anything about net neutrality back in 349 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:43,949 2008. 350 00:12:43,950 --> 00:12:46,439 And they also have this big ISP 351 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:47,699 called Telenor. 352 00:12:47,700 --> 00:12:50,099 And this one just decided 353 00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:51,329 you want to step out of the soft 354 00:12:51,330 --> 00:12:53,669 regulation and just 355 00:12:53,670 --> 00:12:55,799 basically do whatever he wants 356 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,989 to know. Was also the second ISP 357 00:12:57,990 --> 00:13:00,299 off the Comcast to go into an agreement 358 00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:01,499 with Netflix. 359 00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:03,539 So soft lights don't work hard laws. 360 00:13:03,540 --> 00:13:05,940 The only stuff that really matters 361 00:13:06,990 --> 00:13:08,549 then, price discrimination. 362 00:13:08,550 --> 00:13:10,679 That's exactly what Rio just mentioned 363 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:13,289 before, that I don't discriminate 364 00:13:13,290 --> 00:13:15,419 based on the network, on the technical 365 00:13:15,420 --> 00:13:17,759 side, but only on the economic side 366 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,039 of the pricing of certain data packages. 367 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:21,840 And that we see that 368 00:13:22,890 --> 00:13:25,049 Chile and Netherlands have really 369 00:13:25,050 --> 00:13:27,329 good solutions found for that, honestly, 370 00:13:27,330 --> 00:13:29,549 is one of the best in the world. 371 00:13:29,550 --> 00:13:31,679 And on the other side, it's particularly 372 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:33,450 Dael where we have soft laws. 373 00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:35,760 This is not in the scope 374 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,419 then prevent to light 375 00:13:40,420 --> 00:13:42,809 as SS stands for 376 00:13:42,810 --> 00:13:44,219 specialized services. 377 00:13:44,220 --> 00:13:46,109 I'm sure you heard of that. 378 00:13:46,110 --> 00:13:47,519 Specialized services. 379 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,259 We all know it as a play. 380 00:13:49,260 --> 00:13:51,329 If you do not only buy Internet from your 381 00:13:51,330 --> 00:13:53,819 ISP, but also your telephone 382 00:13:53,820 --> 00:13:56,009 and your TV, it's called 383 00:13:56,010 --> 00:13:58,349 a triple play or a specialized service 384 00:13:58,350 --> 00:14:00,269 because there are other services running 385 00:14:00,270 --> 00:14:02,159 through the same pipes, but they are not 386 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,079 Internet. There is something different. 387 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,089 That's also what qualifies a specialized 388 00:14:06,090 --> 00:14:07,499 service. It is special. 389 00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:09,659 It's not just not a random online 390 00:14:09,660 --> 00:14:12,119 service that we know from the Internet 391 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:13,409 and under this category, also 392 00:14:13,410 --> 00:14:14,819 legitimately for things like 393 00:14:14,820 --> 00:14:16,229 telemedicine. If you want to do an 394 00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:17,969 operation, you don't want to do it over 395 00:14:17,970 --> 00:14:20,369 the Internet like self-driving 396 00:14:20,370 --> 00:14:22,509 cars and Industry 4.0, whatever 397 00:14:22,510 --> 00:14:24,389 that means. If it's a critical thing, 398 00:14:24,390 --> 00:14:26,489 then you don't want to run it over the 399 00:14:26,490 --> 00:14:28,439 Internet, then it is a specialized 400 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,359 service because it's set apart from 401 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:31,949 everything else that's happening on the 402 00:14:31,950 --> 00:14:32,950 Internet. 403 00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:35,489 But there's a problem of that. 404 00:14:35,490 --> 00:14:37,469 Although we have this nicely laid out 405 00:14:37,470 --> 00:14:39,719 concept, which is also 406 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,329 historically have been has been the way 407 00:14:42,330 --> 00:14:44,459 in which regulators looked at 408 00:14:44,460 --> 00:14:45,929 the market and looked what Internet 409 00:14:45,930 --> 00:14:47,429 service providers did all around the 410 00:14:47,430 --> 00:14:48,629 world. 411 00:14:48,630 --> 00:14:50,489 Slowly, these barriers between online 412 00:14:50,490 --> 00:14:52,619 services and specialized services 413 00:14:52,620 --> 00:14:54,719 have weakened and things have been 414 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:55,889 reclassified. 415 00:14:55,890 --> 00:14:57,959 And these days we see stuff 416 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,999 like Spotify, like Zappos, like 417 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,219 Dailymotion being 418 00:15:02,220 --> 00:15:04,229 operated under the category of 419 00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:06,729 specialized services or managed services, 420 00:15:06,730 --> 00:15:08,279 whatever you want to call it. 421 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,949 And they're just abusing 422 00:15:10,950 --> 00:15:13,169 these loopholes, which often also 423 00:15:13,170 --> 00:15:15,269 exist in net neutrality legislation. 424 00:15:15,270 --> 00:15:17,519 This is a huge thing for for 425 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,679 the European debate will 426 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,299 come to in a minute. 427 00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:22,589 So we have this knowledge. 428 00:15:22,590 --> 00:15:23,939 What specialized services are it? 429 00:15:23,940 --> 00:15:26,969 We can go back to the table and see that 430 00:15:26,970 --> 00:15:28,409 Slovenia is actually the best country 431 00:15:28,410 --> 00:15:30,539 that managed to distinguish these two 432 00:15:30,540 --> 00:15:32,339 types of services. 433 00:15:32,340 --> 00:15:34,619 And the Netherlands and Chile, 434 00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:36,329 which have in principle really good 435 00:15:36,330 --> 00:15:38,579 legislations, just don't 436 00:15:38,580 --> 00:15:41,189 have this in their scope because usually 437 00:15:41,190 --> 00:15:42,899 just don't have to regulate specialized 438 00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:44,549 services. If you just want to keep the 439 00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:46,719 Internet open and free, you can do 440 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,029 it with plain and simple 441 00:15:48,030 --> 00:15:49,649 nondiscrimination rules. 442 00:15:49,650 --> 00:15:52,079 And if the regulator 443 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,209 does its job well, then usually you 444 00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:55,439 don't have to worry about just 445 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:56,759 reclassifying services. 446 00:15:58,380 --> 00:15:59,790 Just to go a little bit in the other 447 00:16:00,870 --> 00:16:03,329 columns, blocking of 448 00:16:03,330 --> 00:16:04,179 competitors is a. 449 00:16:04,180 --> 00:16:05,949 Usually something which comes with every 450 00:16:05,950 --> 00:16:08,049 net neutrality legislation, you you'll 451 00:16:08,050 --> 00:16:10,309 know that if you have 452 00:16:10,310 --> 00:16:12,369 think Vodafone is it here in Germany, if 453 00:16:12,370 --> 00:16:14,439 you have a contract and they prohibit 454 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,689 you from using Skype or any other voice 455 00:16:16,690 --> 00:16:18,839 of IP service 456 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:20,679 so that you have to use their expensive 457 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,439 roaming instead of going to a competitor, 458 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,509 that's a widespread practice here 459 00:16:25,510 --> 00:16:27,849 in Europe that you block your competitors 460 00:16:27,850 --> 00:16:29,979 in terms of services so that your 461 00:16:29,980 --> 00:16:31,929 customers have no freedom of choice and 462 00:16:31,930 --> 00:16:34,000 cannot switch to another service. 463 00:16:35,410 --> 00:16:37,569 And yet there are 464 00:16:37,570 --> 00:16:39,819 only these two laws in Europe, in 465 00:16:39,820 --> 00:16:41,739 the Netherlands and Slovenia, U.K. 466 00:16:41,740 --> 00:16:44,229 and Switzerland have some nonfunctional, 467 00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:45,669 soft regulations. 468 00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:47,649 And funny enough, South Korea is the only 469 00:16:47,650 --> 00:16:49,569 country in Asia that they touch to 470 00:16:49,570 --> 00:16:50,570 subject 471 00:16:51,670 --> 00:16:53,739 will go to the Latin 472 00:16:53,740 --> 00:16:55,599 American countries later. 473 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,669 But now to the European debate. 474 00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:59,829 That's really where the meat of this talk 475 00:16:59,830 --> 00:17:00,830 lies. 476 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,369 In September 2013, the European 477 00:17:03,370 --> 00:17:06,279 Commission proposed new regulation 478 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:07,669 called Telecoms Single Market. 479 00:17:07,670 --> 00:17:09,519 That's a huge legislative package which 480 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,889 regulates stuff like roaming, 481 00:17:11,890 --> 00:17:13,989 acquiring spectrums, but also 482 00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:14,990 net neutrality. 483 00:17:16,089 --> 00:17:17,949 But sadly, the net neutrality parts of 484 00:17:17,950 --> 00:17:20,229 this law were really like the opposite 485 00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:21,399 of net neutrality. 486 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,709 They would allow ISPs to basically 487 00:17:23,710 --> 00:17:25,779 do everything they want, to have the 488 00:17:25,780 --> 00:17:27,618 vertical integration and establish 489 00:17:27,619 --> 00:17:29,499 themselves as gatekeepers what we can do 490 00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:30,699 online. 491 00:17:30,700 --> 00:17:32,949 So we were really outraged about 492 00:17:32,950 --> 00:17:34,239 this proposal. 493 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,269 And then we decided a year ago 494 00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:38,650 he and Circusy free 495 00:17:39,670 --> 00:17:41,979 to start a campaign while 496 00:17:41,980 --> 00:17:42,909 we launched a campaign. 497 00:17:42,910 --> 00:17:44,959 It was already up to a year ago. 498 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:46,909 And you can still find it on the Internet 499 00:17:46,910 --> 00:17:49,359 that you and this campaign 500 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:51,729 really tipped the favor in 501 00:17:51,730 --> 00:17:52,900 the European Parliament. 502 00:17:54,070 --> 00:17:56,319 We wanted citizens to first 503 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:57,879 get them informed about what's happening 504 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,009 here and also get them engaged and 505 00:18:00,010 --> 00:18:02,439 do something about the Internet. 506 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,389 And we offered them free ways of doing 507 00:18:04,390 --> 00:18:05,390 that. 508 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:07,989 First, of course, they could send an 509 00:18:07,990 --> 00:18:10,599 email to their parliamentarians 510 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,369 and also they could call them free of 511 00:18:12,370 --> 00:18:13,179 charge. 512 00:18:13,180 --> 00:18:15,279 And the really funny thing was that 513 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,439 we also had the possibility of 514 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,259 sending faxes to the offices of the MEPs. 515 00:18:20,260 --> 00:18:21,369 And this was funny. 516 00:18:21,370 --> 00:18:23,649 And this was new because 517 00:18:23,650 --> 00:18:25,719 in the European Parliament, 518 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,849 it's like the fax machine 519 00:18:27,850 --> 00:18:29,349 is also the printer. 520 00:18:29,350 --> 00:18:31,359 So you cannot really disconnect the fax 521 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:33,099 machine without also disconnecting the 522 00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:34,599 printer and. 523 00:18:41,810 --> 00:18:43,939 And so people could just go to 524 00:18:43,940 --> 00:18:46,729 the website, we had some boilerplate 525 00:18:46,730 --> 00:18:49,519 texts, which was also 526 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,079 at the current debate, you know, like 527 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,329 which committee is discussing what, but 528 00:18:53,330 --> 00:18:54,979 people could also just put in their 529 00:18:54,980 --> 00:18:57,319 random messages and make 530 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,749 their message come out physically 531 00:18:59,750 --> 00:19:01,999 in the office of the MP. 532 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,139 And this was 533 00:19:04,140 --> 00:19:05,769 a huge success. 534 00:19:05,770 --> 00:19:07,879 Here are some facts about it. 535 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,859 Over 40000 faxes were 536 00:19:10,970 --> 00:19:13,219 sent out, at least from 537 00:19:13,220 --> 00:19:15,289 twenty one thousand. We can 538 00:19:15,290 --> 00:19:16,969 say for sure that it was delivered 539 00:19:16,970 --> 00:19:19,339 because we only had the free seven 540 00:19:19,340 --> 00:19:21,559 gateways. So at the high peaks, 541 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,179 there were much more faxes that we could 542 00:19:23,180 --> 00:19:24,229 send through. 543 00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:26,389 But still, this is a lot of paper and 544 00:19:26,390 --> 00:19:27,390 that is 545 00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:30,529 the website we had. 546 00:19:30,530 --> 00:19:32,689 So if the Internet was translated in 547 00:19:32,690 --> 00:19:34,339 nine languages and they want to touch on 548 00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:35,839 this subject because particularly for 549 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,279 this technical audience, this might be 550 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,389 interesting. 551 00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:40,369 The whole website was on GitHub. 552 00:19:40,370 --> 00:19:42,289 So the source code of our campaign 553 00:19:42,290 --> 00:19:44,719 website was an open source 554 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,759 collaborative portal. 555 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,829 And so everybody could look at the 556 00:19:48,830 --> 00:19:51,379 source code, proposed changes. 557 00:19:51,380 --> 00:19:53,119 And we also had a new section where you 558 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:55,279 could learn how to translate 559 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:56,599 the whole website. 560 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,879 And that's the reason why we managed 561 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,369 to have nine translations even in Albania 562 00:20:01,370 --> 00:20:03,409 are not even part of the EU, but somebody 563 00:20:03,410 --> 00:20:05,359 from Albania thought this is an important 564 00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:05,959 issue. 565 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,329 I want my people to be informed about it. 566 00:20:08,330 --> 00:20:10,609 So I think this is really a best practice 567 00:20:10,610 --> 00:20:12,829 for the digital civil liberties 568 00:20:12,830 --> 00:20:14,929 community that we should open source our 569 00:20:14,930 --> 00:20:17,209 campaigns, not only that others can learn 570 00:20:17,210 --> 00:20:19,519 from it, but also to allow 571 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,039 other people to to get engaged and 572 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,199 maybe collaborate on language, on 573 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:25,279 languages, or 574 00:20:26,420 --> 00:20:27,420 just find typos. 575 00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:31,339 And yeah, I mentioned before that 576 00:20:31,340 --> 00:20:33,529 I had the privilege to work 577 00:20:33,530 --> 00:20:35,119 in Brussels with the European Digital 578 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:37,459 Rights Office, and we did a lot 579 00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:39,589 of advocacy work there, you have 580 00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:41,659 to understand either the European digital 581 00:20:41,660 --> 00:20:43,879 rights as well as access now to 582 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,069 all the organizations that take care of 583 00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:48,139 our civil liberties within 584 00:20:48,140 --> 00:20:50,039 Brussels in the European bubble. 585 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,189 And they do in tremendously important 586 00:20:52,190 --> 00:20:54,589 work. And we 587 00:20:54,590 --> 00:20:56,389 did so many things over these months. 588 00:20:56,390 --> 00:20:58,609 But few want to highlight 589 00:20:58,610 --> 00:21:00,409 because they are also best practices. 590 00:21:00,410 --> 00:21:02,509 We analyzed each and every 591 00:21:02,510 --> 00:21:04,159 amendment that was tabled to the 592 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,959 legislative text. 593 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:06,979 We wrote booklets. 594 00:21:06,980 --> 00:21:08,899 We wrote many one pages. 595 00:21:08,900 --> 00:21:10,639 For example, look at small and medium 596 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,589 sized companies involved in the debate. 597 00:21:12,590 --> 00:21:14,299 Net neutrality is also a competition 598 00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:16,369 issue, and they helped us 599 00:21:16,370 --> 00:21:18,979 a lot because suddenly it was not just 600 00:21:18,980 --> 00:21:21,079 left liberals civil liberty, people 601 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,809 calling their MEPs, it was companies 602 00:21:23,810 --> 00:21:26,209 from their own country telling them, 603 00:21:26,210 --> 00:21:28,339 I will lose my existence or I will 604 00:21:28,340 --> 00:21:30,859 have a much harder time competing 605 00:21:30,860 --> 00:21:33,589 online if you pass this legislation. 606 00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:34,939 And this helped a lot. 607 00:21:34,940 --> 00:21:37,129 And one thing, why this 608 00:21:37,130 --> 00:21:39,169 lady here, Neelie Kroes, the Commissioner 609 00:21:39,170 --> 00:21:41,419 for Digital Agenda back then, 610 00:21:41,420 --> 00:21:43,550 is on the bema right now, is that 611 00:21:44,690 --> 00:21:46,879 we also had many lobby 612 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,219 documents that we created to kind of keep 613 00:21:49,220 --> 00:21:51,259 ahead of the narrative, which was always 614 00:21:51,260 --> 00:21:52,909 pressure because the telecom lobby was 615 00:21:52,910 --> 00:21:54,409 was always fighting with us. 616 00:21:54,410 --> 00:21:56,269 It was really a short term battle. 617 00:21:56,270 --> 00:21:58,699 And we had 618 00:21:58,700 --> 00:22:00,979 one really good trick which worked well, 619 00:22:00,980 --> 00:22:02,899 which was that we made our messages 620 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:04,219 funny. 621 00:22:04,220 --> 00:22:06,769 We like we wrote subtitles to speeches 622 00:22:06,770 --> 00:22:09,229 of the commissioner, which not only 623 00:22:09,230 --> 00:22:10,889 showed real meaning of what you were 624 00:22:10,890 --> 00:22:13,219 saying, but they also were funny. 625 00:22:13,220 --> 00:22:15,409 They revealed the truth 626 00:22:15,410 --> 00:22:16,999 and the assistants like them. 627 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,589 The assistants ended it round to their 628 00:22:18,590 --> 00:22:20,329 friends in the parliament. 629 00:22:20,330 --> 00:22:22,549 And so our messages spread really widely, 630 00:22:22,550 --> 00:22:24,380 much faster than they would usually do. 631 00:22:26,090 --> 00:22:27,529 We have to look at the time. 632 00:22:27,530 --> 00:22:29,689 But to finish 633 00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:31,429 up with Europe, that's basically the 634 00:22:31,430 --> 00:22:34,159 outcome that we had. We won in plenary 635 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:35,809 with the votes of the Social Democrats, 636 00:22:35,810 --> 00:22:37,579 the Liberals, the Greens and the left, 637 00:22:39,290 --> 00:22:42,709 and we got real net neutrality. 638 00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:43,909 You will see it later on the legal 639 00:22:43,910 --> 00:22:44,910 comparison. 640 00:22:45,740 --> 00:22:47,479 This is a huge success because nobody 641 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,129 believed it would actually make it in the 642 00:22:49,130 --> 00:22:50,269 European Parliament. 643 00:22:50,270 --> 00:22:51,829 It was so close to the election. 644 00:22:51,830 --> 00:22:53,509 It's such a complex issue. 645 00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:55,909 But still, because people got engaged, 646 00:22:55,910 --> 00:22:58,489 we could turn to favor 647 00:22:58,490 --> 00:23:00,619 and and to parliamentarians passed 648 00:23:00,620 --> 00:23:01,759 a really good text. 649 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,199 Still, the text is not perfect because 650 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,359 enforcement is weak, but we'll come to 651 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:16,409 that later. 652 00:23:16,410 --> 00:23:18,469 First, I want to go to 653 00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:20,579 the the basic principle of 654 00:23:20,580 --> 00:23:22,619 how a law is done in Europe looks like 655 00:23:22,620 --> 00:23:25,319 that the commission proposes legislation. 656 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,239 Only the commission can do that. 657 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,769 And then it has to go through the 658 00:23:28,770 --> 00:23:31,499 parliament where all the representatives 659 00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:33,569 that we all votes it, the 660 00:23:33,570 --> 00:23:35,729 751 people and we have 661 00:23:35,730 --> 00:23:37,919 to council where the 28 member state 662 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,169 sits. So mostly the ministries, 663 00:23:40,170 --> 00:23:41,969 when it comes to net neutrality, it's 664 00:23:41,970 --> 00:23:43,889 mostly the economic or the infrastructure 665 00:23:43,890 --> 00:23:46,079 ministry that deals with these things. 666 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,999 So currently we're at this stage, the 667 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,039 commission proposed really shitty tax 668 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,139 which were kill, that in reality the 669 00:23:52,140 --> 00:23:53,159 parliament saved it. 670 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,599 And now it's up to the council because 671 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,909 it's one one and the council 672 00:23:56,910 --> 00:23:58,859 is the fight where we are right now. 673 00:23:58,860 --> 00:24:00,989 And to give you an overview, again, in 674 00:24:00,990 --> 00:24:03,119 the same scheme as before, 675 00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:04,769 the commission proposed something really 676 00:24:04,770 --> 00:24:07,709 bad, which basically fails on all levels. 677 00:24:07,710 --> 00:24:09,779 The parliament did a 678 00:24:09,780 --> 00:24:10,739 great job. 679 00:24:10,740 --> 00:24:13,259 They like they put a solution forward. 680 00:24:13,260 --> 00:24:15,119 Then the Italian presidency 681 00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:18,359 had two proposals, 682 00:24:19,530 --> 00:24:21,299 more or less. Both of them push it. 683 00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:23,489 And then the Polish and the Dutch 684 00:24:23,490 --> 00:24:25,199 government came forward with really good 685 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,200 language. 686 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,039 They more or less oriented themselves 687 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,499 on the Dutch legislation and 688 00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:33,629 really proposed a good text. 689 00:24:33,630 --> 00:24:35,309 We're speaking of October, November here. 690 00:24:35,310 --> 00:24:37,619 And it really looked good back then. 691 00:24:37,620 --> 00:24:39,719 But this December, Germany 692 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,340 put forward a text which 693 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,029 changed the whole game because Germany 694 00:24:45,030 --> 00:24:46,919 proposed the tax, which would basically 695 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,019 allow all sorts of discrimination 696 00:24:49,020 --> 00:24:52,139 on all levels to even allow 697 00:24:52,140 --> 00:24:54,389 blocking your competitors, which 698 00:24:54,390 --> 00:24:56,309 is something most national legislation 699 00:24:56,310 --> 00:24:57,209 would never do. 700 00:24:57,210 --> 00:24:59,099 And even the Italians allowed that. 701 00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:01,349 But the Germans still would 702 00:25:01,350 --> 00:25:03,119 allow that in their text. 703 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:05,189 And the real satirical thing is that they 704 00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:07,469 are selling this as a compromise. 705 00:25:07,470 --> 00:25:09,389 Merkel is saying this is a compromise 706 00:25:09,390 --> 00:25:11,969 between the Internet society 707 00:25:11,970 --> 00:25:14,219 and the industry lobby. 708 00:25:14,220 --> 00:25:17,189 It is not a compromise, not even closely. 709 00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:18,959 And we have to call them out, 710 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:20,939 particularly the Social Democrats, 711 00:25:20,940 --> 00:25:22,739 because it Sigmar Gabriel, who is 712 00:25:22,740 --> 00:25:24,749 negotiating this, and the Social 713 00:25:24,750 --> 00:25:27,509 Democrats still have some 714 00:25:27,510 --> 00:25:29,009 pressure points. They still feel 715 00:25:29,010 --> 00:25:30,539 something. I think the conservatives are 716 00:25:30,540 --> 00:25:32,399 lost in this issue. 717 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,619 But the Social Democrats, I 718 00:25:34,620 --> 00:25:36,149 think there is still hope. And this is an 719 00:25:36,150 --> 00:25:38,279 issue which has to be resolved within 720 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,479 Germany. 721 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,789 In the council, we have some 722 00:25:41,790 --> 00:25:43,469 other big countries which are opposing 723 00:25:43,470 --> 00:25:45,659 us. And so if Germany is following up 724 00:25:45,660 --> 00:25:47,819 on this line, the outlook is quite 725 00:25:47,820 --> 00:25:48,820 that. 726 00:25:49,820 --> 00:25:51,889 So save the Internet was 727 00:25:51,890 --> 00:25:54,469 like relaunching the Web 2.0, and 728 00:25:54,470 --> 00:25:56,809 we now have a new 729 00:25:56,810 --> 00:25:58,969 website which allows you to send 730 00:25:58,970 --> 00:26:01,489 emails to the ministries and 731 00:26:01,490 --> 00:26:03,019 the permanent representatives of your 732 00:26:03,020 --> 00:26:04,159 country. 733 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:05,749 Again, you have boilerplate e-mails, but 734 00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:07,819 it's better if you write your own text 735 00:26:07,820 --> 00:26:09,829 why you think that mentality is important 736 00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:10,849 from your perspective. 737 00:26:12,050 --> 00:26:14,779 And just to 738 00:26:14,780 --> 00:26:16,700 summarize the European stuff. 739 00:26:18,940 --> 00:26:21,129 There's a basic premise, 740 00:26:21,130 --> 00:26:23,349 a basic goal behind what 741 00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:25,569 the commission and Germany, 742 00:26:25,570 --> 00:26:26,679 as well as the U.K. 743 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,809 and Spain, all countries 744 00:26:28,810 --> 00:26:30,999 with big incumbent telcos like 745 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,069 Deutsche Telekom, like Vodafone, 746 00:26:33,070 --> 00:26:35,079 like Telefonica, big ISPs that 747 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,569 automatically engaged the old want, 748 00:26:37,570 --> 00:26:39,729 market consolidation just means 749 00:26:39,730 --> 00:26:42,009 instead of the like 150 750 00:26:42,010 --> 00:26:43,929 small and medium ISPs that we have right 751 00:26:43,930 --> 00:26:46,239 now in Europe, they want to shrink 752 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,939 it down to just four big pan-European 753 00:26:48,940 --> 00:26:51,229 ISPs. Very similarly to the wider 754 00:26:51,230 --> 00:26:52,700 American market is structured right now. 755 00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:55,479 There are several reasons for that. 756 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,129 They believe that this will boost 757 00:26:57,130 --> 00:26:59,259 economy, economy, or else 758 00:26:59,260 --> 00:27:01,809 it would create more jobs and ultimately 759 00:27:01,810 --> 00:27:03,189 it would lead to more infrastructure 760 00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:04,089 investment. 761 00:27:04,090 --> 00:27:06,489 They know that it will cost billions 762 00:27:06,490 --> 00:27:09,219 to make Europe 763 00:27:09,220 --> 00:27:11,409 fit when it comes to fiber, to 764 00:27:11,410 --> 00:27:13,389 the new benefits that we all need for the 765 00:27:13,390 --> 00:27:14,829 21st century. 766 00:27:14,830 --> 00:27:17,319 And they believe this bet 767 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,629 that if we give the ISPs 768 00:27:19,630 --> 00:27:22,269 regulatory holidays, they will just start 769 00:27:22,270 --> 00:27:23,650 investing in infrastructure. 770 00:27:24,850 --> 00:27:26,649 The second summary of the tape is that we 771 00:27:26,650 --> 00:27:27,579 sat in the council. 772 00:27:27,580 --> 00:27:29,349 We are really good at getting people 773 00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:30,999 engaged to the commission and also to the 774 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:31,989 parliament. 775 00:27:31,990 --> 00:27:33,879 But when it comes to the council, well, 776 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,279 28 member states sit 777 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:37,989 as Internet society. 778 00:27:37,990 --> 00:27:40,059 We don't have the capacity 779 00:27:40,060 --> 00:27:42,219 or the architecture to really 780 00:27:42,220 --> 00:27:43,449 put pressure on that. 781 00:27:43,450 --> 00:27:45,129 Organizations like Greenpeace can do that 782 00:27:45,130 --> 00:27:47,169 because they are in every country and 783 00:27:47,170 --> 00:27:49,119 coordinate pan-European. 784 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:51,129 We still have to catch up in this regard 785 00:27:51,130 --> 00:27:52,509 because we see it as not only net 786 00:27:52,510 --> 00:27:54,159 neutrality or the fight about data 787 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,009 retention and data protection or similar 788 00:27:57,010 --> 00:27:59,499 and have to hurry up national fallbacks 789 00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:01,719 are necessary because if we fail with 790 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,579 this law, the earliest we will get 791 00:28:03,580 --> 00:28:06,039 European legislation that would safeguard 792 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,949 net neutrality is 2018. 793 00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:10,899 And remember what I said before, the 794 00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:12,999 market is creating facts, so we 795 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,969 may not have time until 2018 796 00:28:15,970 --> 00:28:17,139 at the earliest. 797 00:28:17,140 --> 00:28:19,149 So maybe national fallbacks are necessary 798 00:28:19,150 --> 00:28:20,619 to at least keep the principle of life in 799 00:28:20,620 --> 00:28:21,700 some European countries. 800 00:28:22,930 --> 00:28:26,509 Now to the Dutch experience. 801 00:28:26,510 --> 00:28:27,510 Thank you. 802 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,459 So before we had another 803 00:28:32,460 --> 00:28:34,619 tragedy in the Netherlands, the 804 00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:37,169 telcos were explaining 805 00:28:37,170 --> 00:28:38,170 to the people, like, 806 00:28:39,270 --> 00:28:41,309 if you have an android, you by law, then 807 00:28:41,310 --> 00:28:43,439 your subscription will be a lot 808 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,139 more expensive than it is now. 809 00:28:46,140 --> 00:28:48,029 And I could tell you our experience, 810 00:28:48,030 --> 00:28:50,339 that's not the case. Maybe it has become 811 00:28:50,340 --> 00:28:52,379 a bit more expensive, but definitely not 812 00:28:52,380 --> 00:28:54,029 that expensive that there's a lot of 813 00:28:54,030 --> 00:28:55,030 difference. 814 00:28:55,890 --> 00:28:58,049 But what did we 815 00:28:58,050 --> 00:28:59,489 experience? 816 00:28:59,490 --> 00:29:01,739 So the Dutch law is 817 00:29:01,740 --> 00:29:04,169 being enforced by an array named 818 00:29:04,170 --> 00:29:06,359 AQM It's the authority for 819 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,159 consumers and markets. 820 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,160 And 821 00:29:10,770 --> 00:29:13,169 I can say if I would say that the 822 00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:15,689 enforcement is mediocre at best. 823 00:29:15,690 --> 00:29:17,939 There have been five five investigations 824 00:29:17,940 --> 00:29:20,819 have started and 825 00:29:20,820 --> 00:29:23,159 three of those are still underway 826 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,529 and only two of them have a ruling. 827 00:29:25,530 --> 00:29:27,569 One of those rulings is quite good. 828 00:29:27,570 --> 00:29:29,309 The other one is surprisingly bad. 829 00:29:30,420 --> 00:29:31,690 The first one is 830 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,629 within that in a train and 831 00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:38,579 train in the Netherlands is more like 832 00:29:38,580 --> 00:29:39,580 this. 833 00:29:43,020 --> 00:29:45,059 So the Internet train is offered by 834 00:29:45,060 --> 00:29:47,459 T-Mobile for the mobile 835 00:29:47,460 --> 00:29:49,649 network, and of course, everyone 836 00:29:49,650 --> 00:29:51,959 is limited and is frequently changing 837 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,479 capacity that is available. 838 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,759 And without network management, 839 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,260 of course, that will be 840 00:29:59,550 --> 00:30:01,049 not working at all. 841 00:30:01,050 --> 00:30:03,269 So that's railways is 842 00:30:03,270 --> 00:30:05,519 blocking access to video websites 843 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,470 and is throttling 844 00:30:08,820 --> 00:30:10,679 file sharing protocols. 845 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,629 And the question brought forward to the 846 00:30:12,630 --> 00:30:14,699 NRA was, is that a 847 00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:16,400 violation of net neutrality? 848 00:30:18,390 --> 00:30:20,519 The NRA said, we believe 849 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,259 that in this case, blocking and delaying 850 00:30:22,260 --> 00:30:24,749 services that require large capacity 851 00:30:24,750 --> 00:30:26,909 is necessary to minimize the effects of 852 00:30:26,910 --> 00:30:28,650 congestion on mobile connection. 853 00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:32,159 So the NRA said it's not a violation 854 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,439 because four for one, 855 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,539 it's necessary because there's a limited 856 00:30:36,540 --> 00:30:38,039 capacity available. 857 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,109 And second, because blocking and 858 00:30:40,110 --> 00:30:42,779 slowing down is done indiscriminately. 859 00:30:42,780 --> 00:30:45,299 So this is not a violation 860 00:30:45,300 --> 00:30:47,369 of the Dutch, uh, 861 00:30:47,370 --> 00:30:50,169 law. And I think that's, um, 862 00:30:50,170 --> 00:30:51,630 that sounds reasonable to me. 863 00:30:52,990 --> 00:30:55,709 Your case is access, which is 864 00:30:55,710 --> 00:30:58,289 kind of a brand of the telco Vodafone 865 00:30:58,290 --> 00:31:00,629 and the content provider RTL. 866 00:31:00,630 --> 00:31:02,999 Their offer is a subscription 867 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,229 where you can have 868 00:31:05,310 --> 00:31:08,249 voice, text and Internet access 869 00:31:08,250 --> 00:31:09,629 on your mobile phone. 870 00:31:09,630 --> 00:31:11,489 And in addition to that, you can get an 871 00:31:11,490 --> 00:31:13,439 app and an app allows you allows the 872 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,629 customers to watch Archil content 873 00:31:15,630 --> 00:31:18,089 without charging the customers 874 00:31:18,090 --> 00:31:20,399 Dataplan. So you get that RTL content 875 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:21,400 for free. 876 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,449 In other words, that's that's what 877 00:31:24,450 --> 00:31:26,759 I call zero rate or sponsored 878 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:27,760 data. 879 00:31:28,260 --> 00:31:29,549 That's a clear violation of net 880 00:31:29,550 --> 00:31:31,619 neutrality, of course, both in the 881 00:31:31,620 --> 00:31:34,009 principle and the under 882 00:31:34,010 --> 00:31:35,130 the law in the Netherlands. 883 00:31:36,900 --> 00:31:39,059 But the NRA's response to this one is 884 00:31:39,060 --> 00:31:40,060 a bit curious. 885 00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:43,259 And yet to say Vodafone will end this 886 00:31:43,260 --> 00:31:45,359 violation by offering the service as a 887 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,429 separate service, which can be used 888 00:31:47,430 --> 00:31:49,079 independent to the Internet access 889 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:50,080 service. 890 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,309 Um, so the NRA agrees that 891 00:31:53,310 --> 00:31:55,019 this is a violation and something needs 892 00:31:55,020 --> 00:31:56,429 to change. 893 00:31:56,430 --> 00:31:58,709 Um, so this may proceed, 894 00:31:58,710 --> 00:32:00,629 provided that the system is offered as a 895 00:32:00,630 --> 00:32:02,789 separate service, they name 896 00:32:02,790 --> 00:32:03,790 it, like it. 897 00:32:04,230 --> 00:32:06,629 Um, so practically this means 898 00:32:06,630 --> 00:32:09,179 that you as a consumer may 899 00:32:09,180 --> 00:32:11,249 get a subscription where 900 00:32:11,250 --> 00:32:13,289 you can get data, where you can get a 901 00:32:13,290 --> 00:32:15,419 voice and text and you can 902 00:32:15,420 --> 00:32:17,909 get the app and see the article content, 903 00:32:17,910 --> 00:32:19,709 even if you don't have Internet access on 904 00:32:19,710 --> 00:32:20,940 that subscription. 905 00:32:22,110 --> 00:32:24,179 But it also means that if you have 906 00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:26,909 a subscription where you have voice, 907 00:32:26,910 --> 00:32:29,459 text and Internet access, 908 00:32:29,460 --> 00:32:31,739 you also get this separate service 909 00:32:31,740 --> 00:32:32,729 for free. 910 00:32:32,730 --> 00:32:34,829 And that means that in the end, nothing 911 00:32:34,830 --> 00:32:36,179 has changed because you have 912 00:32:36,180 --> 00:32:38,549 subscriptions with full Internet access 913 00:32:38,550 --> 00:32:41,279 and exit and RTL 914 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,019 app with content comes free. 915 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,499 So in my opinion, 916 00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:48,599 this solution they 917 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:49,739 thought of is 918 00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:53,669 not a real solution because 919 00:32:53,670 --> 00:32:56,099 the violation is still intact. 920 00:32:56,100 --> 00:32:57,749 So it's a horrible ruling. 921 00:32:57,750 --> 00:32:59,639 And I've been told that, uh, the minister 922 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,189 of economic affairs wasn't amused 923 00:33:02,190 --> 00:33:04,529 when they became aware of this ruling. 924 00:33:05,550 --> 00:33:08,589 So what are the open debates? 925 00:33:08,590 --> 00:33:10,769 Um, in the Netherlands, 926 00:33:10,770 --> 00:33:12,929 the minister at the Ministry of Economic 927 00:33:12,930 --> 00:33:15,119 Affairs is drafting a 928 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,339 new policy document which would 929 00:33:17,340 --> 00:33:20,129 make some of those, uh, 930 00:33:20,130 --> 00:33:22,319 uh, cases, which are not clear 931 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,539 now, which would, uh, clarify 932 00:33:24,540 --> 00:33:26,549 those situations. 933 00:33:26,550 --> 00:33:28,799 And, uh, there are 934 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,349 three topics which are mentioned in this 935 00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:32,309 document. 936 00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:34,979 First of all, the question, should 937 00:33:34,980 --> 00:33:37,379 the ISP that is that 938 00:33:37,380 --> 00:33:39,959 provides you with the, uh, 939 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:40,739 connection? 940 00:33:40,740 --> 00:33:43,109 Should they do also IPV six, 941 00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:45,029 should or should it be forced to provide 942 00:33:45,030 --> 00:33:46,030 IPV six? 943 00:33:46,830 --> 00:33:49,139 The government says it does not the case 944 00:33:49,140 --> 00:33:51,329 because I before and IPV six is what 945 00:33:51,330 --> 00:33:53,189 is used as a transport layer. 946 00:33:53,190 --> 00:33:55,559 And net neutrality is only about 947 00:33:56,570 --> 00:33:58,019 the services that are used that are 948 00:33:58,020 --> 00:33:59,759 provided over this layer. 949 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,889 So, uh, IPV six would 950 00:34:01,890 --> 00:34:04,059 not be a requirement if you have an 951 00:34:04,060 --> 00:34:05,060 emergency. 952 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,459 The other thing they are discussing is 953 00:34:08,460 --> 00:34:10,799 what exactly is a Internet access 954 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:11,729 service? 955 00:34:11,730 --> 00:34:13,769 So that's the word that is used in the 956 00:34:13,770 --> 00:34:14,009 law. 957 00:34:14,010 --> 00:34:16,349 But it's not that doesn't have 958 00:34:16,350 --> 00:34:17,729 a definition. 959 00:34:17,730 --> 00:34:20,129 So, uh, they're are debating 960 00:34:20,130 --> 00:34:21,968 on what is actually an Internet access 961 00:34:21,969 --> 00:34:22,888 service. 962 00:34:22,889 --> 00:34:25,198 So the Internet in a train, that's 963 00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:27,718 a clear example. Everybody agrees that's 964 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:29,839 that's something which should be, um, 965 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,129 uh, where that majority should apply. 966 00:34:32,130 --> 00:34:34,919 But for example, in a hotel, 967 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:36,928 that's a different case and they haven't 968 00:34:36,929 --> 00:34:39,509 yet decided. I think this will invent 969 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,899 the Internet access in a hotel. 970 00:34:42,900 --> 00:34:43,900 It will not be, 971 00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:46,830 uh, have have well 972 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:49,239 applied. 973 00:34:50,070 --> 00:34:52,289 And then this is 974 00:34:52,290 --> 00:34:53,738 already mentioned. 975 00:34:53,739 --> 00:34:55,769 So the and also what Thomas already 976 00:34:55,770 --> 00:34:58,079 mentioned is you have these, um, 977 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,509 separate services manager service, single 978 00:35:00,510 --> 00:35:01,379 services. 979 00:35:01,380 --> 00:35:03,569 And I think that the, uh, 980 00:35:03,570 --> 00:35:05,969 policy document that is drafted now will 981 00:35:05,970 --> 00:35:08,489 provide more, um, 982 00:35:08,490 --> 00:35:09,829 clear structure on that as well. 983 00:35:13,140 --> 00:35:16,049 Yeah, now we go to yet 984 00:35:16,050 --> 00:35:18,449 now we go to the global debate, 985 00:35:20,460 --> 00:35:23,459 I think you may have noticed that 986 00:35:23,460 --> 00:35:25,050 there was something going on in the US. 987 00:35:26,370 --> 00:35:28,530 Verizon succeeded in 988 00:35:29,550 --> 00:35:31,259 killing the old regulation about 989 00:35:31,260 --> 00:35:33,179 neutrality in the US. 990 00:35:33,180 --> 00:35:35,459 They just say that 991 00:35:35,460 --> 00:35:37,469 this hinders their freedom of speech to 992 00:35:37,470 --> 00:35:39,599 discriminate the content within 993 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:40,649 their networks. 994 00:35:40,650 --> 00:35:42,329 And they actually got through with it and 995 00:35:42,330 --> 00:35:44,559 they killed the old regulation that 996 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,949 the American regulator FCC 997 00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:48,119 proposed. 998 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,219 And then this huge battle started in the 999 00:35:50,220 --> 00:35:52,349 US where also, again, a lot 1000 00:35:52,350 --> 00:35:54,239 of civil society was engaged. 1001 00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:56,789 Our sister campaigns Internet.com 1002 00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:58,319 was revised. 1003 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,239 Many civil society groups, as well as 1004 00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:02,339 Silicon Valley joined into the fight 1005 00:36:02,340 --> 00:36:05,309 because the new rules the FCC proposed 1006 00:36:05,310 --> 00:36:07,529 were really horrible, similarly to what 1007 00:36:07,530 --> 00:36:09,119 the Germans just sort of committed and 1008 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,709 originally put forward. 1009 00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:13,649 And then also 1010 00:36:13,650 --> 00:36:15,869 things happened like John Oliver touched 1011 00:36:15,870 --> 00:36:17,969 the issue of net neutrality and his very 1012 00:36:17,970 --> 00:36:19,949 popular Daily Show. 1013 00:36:19,950 --> 00:36:22,349 And this all spiked and aggregated 1014 00:36:22,350 --> 00:36:24,599 so that around four million comments 1015 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,359 were submitted to the consultation 1016 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,519 Baffsky had put up for the 1017 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:30,779 new rules. 1018 00:36:30,780 --> 00:36:33,119 And in general, we can say to 1019 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,249 the question in the US really boils 1020 00:36:35,250 --> 00:36:37,589 down to public opinion 1021 00:36:37,590 --> 00:36:39,329 versus industry lobby. 1022 00:36:39,330 --> 00:36:41,009 There is no question about the public 1023 00:36:41,010 --> 00:36:43,079 opinion. Even in conservative 1024 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,209 Republican circles, net neutrality 1025 00:36:45,210 --> 00:36:47,519 is seen as a good thing for 1026 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,079 competition, for freedom of speech, for 1027 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:50,579 various reasons. 1028 00:36:50,580 --> 00:36:53,639 But still, the industry lobby manages to 1029 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,130 make it a political issue and still 1030 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:58,919 delayed a decision. 1031 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,319 And then Obama came 1032 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,479 out and and like publicly said, 1033 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,669 net neutrality is important and we 1034 00:37:05,670 --> 00:37:07,199 have to make it a law. 1035 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,329 And the rules he proposed 1036 00:37:09,330 --> 00:37:11,399 in his statement also look really 1037 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:12,809 fine, drafted like he understood the 1038 00:37:12,810 --> 00:37:15,329 problem and proposed a real solution. 1039 00:37:15,330 --> 00:37:17,339 But sadly, he is not the person to 1040 00:37:17,340 --> 00:37:18,959 decide. It's this guy 1041 00:37:20,250 --> 00:37:22,889 whom he appointed, Tom Wheeler, 1042 00:37:22,890 --> 00:37:25,169 the current chair of the 1043 00:37:25,170 --> 00:37:27,479 American Regulatory Authority FCC. 1044 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,609 It's his decision whether or not we'll 1045 00:37:29,610 --> 00:37:31,949 have net neutrality in the US 1046 00:37:31,950 --> 00:37:33,129 or not. 1047 00:37:33,130 --> 00:37:35,189 And we'll 1048 00:37:35,190 --> 00:37:36,959 see, I guess, in 2015. 1049 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,149 This decision will fall either way. 1050 00:37:39,150 --> 00:37:41,239 But it's definitely boils down to was 1051 00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:43,469 this public opinion versus industry 1052 00:37:43,470 --> 00:37:44,789 lobbying? 1053 00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:47,549 But it's not just the US and 1054 00:37:47,550 --> 00:37:48,749 the EU. 1055 00:37:48,750 --> 00:37:50,849 This debate is global 1056 00:37:50,850 --> 00:37:52,499 and particularly in Africa. 1057 00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:55,199 Net neutrality is a huge issue 1058 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,539 because most people there don't have any 1059 00:37:57,540 --> 00:37:58,889 Internet access at all. 1060 00:37:58,890 --> 00:38:01,229 But what they sometimes have is 1061 00:38:01,230 --> 00:38:03,779 so-called Facebook zero, where 1062 00:38:03,780 --> 00:38:05,549 everything they have from the Internet is 1063 00:38:05,550 --> 00:38:08,159 just Facebook or Google 1064 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,589 or Twitter, those big companies 1065 00:38:10,590 --> 00:38:13,049 that can afford to pay for 1066 00:38:13,050 --> 00:38:15,359 the data that the customers need to reach 1067 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:16,860 them or to users need to reach them. 1068 00:38:18,030 --> 00:38:20,129 Those put up crazy stuff 1069 00:38:20,130 --> 00:38:22,229 like Zeppelins that get their Internet 1070 00:38:22,230 --> 00:38:24,509 from a satellite and then project 1071 00:38:24,510 --> 00:38:26,879 a GSM network in really rural 1072 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,069 areas. They really take money in their 1073 00:38:29,070 --> 00:38:31,109 hands to bring Internet in rural areas, 1074 00:38:31,110 --> 00:38:33,059 but not really Internet, only their 1075 00:38:33,060 --> 00:38:34,379 services. 1076 00:38:34,380 --> 00:38:36,479 And so there is a huge 1077 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,279 part of the population in some areas 1078 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,140 which only has a 1079 00:38:41,370 --> 00:38:43,649 net, which only has disservices. 1080 00:38:43,650 --> 00:38:45,149 That's everything they know from the 1081 00:38:45,150 --> 00:38:46,150 Internet. 1082 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:48,959 And this is really important. 1083 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,429 If you look at development theory, I 1084 00:38:50,430 --> 00:38:52,589 mean, I'm an anthropologist 1085 00:38:52,590 --> 00:38:54,959 and this is a topic close to me. 1086 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,329 What we are doing in the global south is 1087 00:38:57,330 --> 00:38:59,699 establishing new dependency circles. 1088 00:38:59,700 --> 00:39:01,769 We're making these economies dependent 1089 00:39:01,770 --> 00:39:04,619 on us, on our Western services. 1090 00:39:04,620 --> 00:39:07,049 We actively prevent local 1091 00:39:07,050 --> 00:39:09,209 services to come up startups in 1092 00:39:09,210 --> 00:39:11,549 Africa that come up with 1093 00:39:11,550 --> 00:39:13,589 the real needed services that the people 1094 00:39:13,590 --> 00:39:15,899 have. They are good examples for that. 1095 00:39:15,900 --> 00:39:18,359 Africa has established elaborate 1096 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,989 SMS payment and information systems, 1097 00:39:20,990 --> 00:39:22,769 as is often the only means of 1098 00:39:22,770 --> 00:39:24,089 communication that people have in a 1099 00:39:24,090 --> 00:39:26,159 chronically. And still they managed 1100 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,739 to compensate 1101 00:39:28,740 --> 00:39:30,809 with these tools the fact that 1102 00:39:30,810 --> 00:39:33,989 most Africans don't have bank accounts. 1103 00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:36,659 So there is a real need for modern 1104 00:39:36,660 --> 00:39:38,189 telecommunications technology in this 1105 00:39:38,190 --> 00:39:40,169 continent. That's still the way to 1106 00:39:40,170 --> 00:39:42,329 society is making global south even 1107 00:39:42,330 --> 00:39:45,629 more dependent to Western companies. 1108 00:39:45,630 --> 00:39:48,209 And this is 1109 00:39:48,210 --> 00:39:50,669 similarly, in a way, the case in Asia 1110 00:39:50,670 --> 00:39:52,439 where also exhilarating is really common. 1111 00:39:53,790 --> 00:39:56,069 But the net neutrality debate is not. 1112 00:39:56,070 --> 00:39:57,839 South Korea's the only country that has 1113 00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,999 legislation on this topic 1114 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,679 and it's not really good. 1115 00:40:02,910 --> 00:40:05,159 And in general, the 1116 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:06,989 net neutrality paradigm is not really 1117 00:40:06,990 --> 00:40:08,429 widespread in Asia, 1118 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,369 differently so in Latin America. 1119 00:40:13,370 --> 00:40:14,689 As I mentioned before, Sheila was the 1120 00:40:14,690 --> 00:40:16,789 first country to 1121 00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:18,709 make a law about net neutrality and 1122 00:40:18,710 --> 00:40:20,149 actually a quite good one. 1123 00:40:20,150 --> 00:40:23,449 It was copied by eBay people and Ecuador 1124 00:40:23,450 --> 00:40:25,969 recently. Also, Brazil adopted the civil 1125 00:40:25,970 --> 00:40:28,219 constitutional law about Internet, 1126 00:40:28,220 --> 00:40:30,019 which also includes provision about net 1127 00:40:30,020 --> 00:40:31,189 neutrality. 1128 00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:32,570 And also Mexico recently 1129 00:40:33,770 --> 00:40:35,509 put a law forward, which is not good, but 1130 00:40:35,510 --> 00:40:37,339 still they did something on this topic. 1131 00:40:37,340 --> 00:40:39,259 So Latin America is a really interesting 1132 00:40:39,260 --> 00:40:41,329 area when it comes to 1133 00:40:41,330 --> 00:40:42,330 net neutrality. 1134 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,159 I know the final thing I want to mention 1135 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:47,899 is probably something a little bit 1136 00:40:47,900 --> 00:40:49,639 heated, but I feel really strongly about 1137 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,290 it and I want to speak out about it. 1138 00:40:52,460 --> 00:40:55,039 We all love Wikipedia and 1139 00:40:56,660 --> 00:40:59,209 but sadly, there is a stain on that love, 1140 00:40:59,210 --> 00:41:00,869 at least for me, Wikipedia. 1141 00:41:00,870 --> 00:41:03,319 There is a product of 1142 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,629 Wikipedia. It's a project which to run 1143 00:41:05,630 --> 00:41:07,579 where they do exactly the same as 1144 00:41:07,580 --> 00:41:09,799 Facebook. Basically, they pay for 1145 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,899 the data that, Audy, 1146 00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:13,489 they make agreements with ISPs. 1147 00:41:13,490 --> 00:41:15,019 There's actually no money flowing, but 1148 00:41:15,020 --> 00:41:17,119 they make agreements with ISPs so 1149 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,189 that Wikipedia is excluded from any 1150 00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:20,329 data charges. 1151 00:41:20,330 --> 00:41:22,399 So if I have a feature phone 1152 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,529 and I have only a contract worth a few 1153 00:41:24,530 --> 00:41:26,599 Assam's and a few minutes per 1154 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,579 month, I can I can phone with somebody 1155 00:41:28,580 --> 00:41:29,959 and I have no Internet. 1156 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,119 I can still see Wikipedia, I can 1157 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,189 still edit Wikipedia, 1158 00:41:34,190 --> 00:41:35,929 but that's the only thing I see from the 1159 00:41:35,930 --> 00:41:37,249 Internet. 1160 00:41:37,250 --> 00:41:40,489 Of course, they're doing this to foster 1161 00:41:40,490 --> 00:41:42,229 the sum of all human knowledge. 1162 00:41:42,230 --> 00:41:44,119 They want to get their market, their 1163 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,429 service out there to more people like 1164 00:41:46,430 --> 00:41:48,589 Facebook. They see that only one billion 1165 00:41:48,590 --> 00:41:50,989 people is in the Internet, but 1166 00:41:50,990 --> 00:41:52,369 they're much more people in the world. 1167 00:41:52,370 --> 00:41:54,199 And so why don't we try to reach those 1168 00:41:56,270 --> 00:41:58,669 ultimately is also about brand 1169 00:41:58,670 --> 00:42:01,129 establishing themselves 1170 00:42:01,130 --> 00:42:03,529 in these new markets, 1171 00:42:03,530 --> 00:42:05,749 which will soon have Internet 1172 00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:06,889 and hopefully will develop. 1173 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,549 But imagine if Encyclopedia 1174 00:42:10,550 --> 00:42:12,949 Britannica had a service 1175 00:42:12,950 --> 00:42:14,150 like this 10 years ago. 1176 00:42:15,230 --> 00:42:17,449 Something like Wikipedia never could 1177 00:42:17,450 --> 00:42:20,089 have come into existence because 1178 00:42:20,090 --> 00:42:21,979 there would already be one incumbent 1179 00:42:21,980 --> 00:42:24,169 player that's hugely dominant, that 1180 00:42:24,170 --> 00:42:26,539 has a free 1181 00:42:26,540 --> 00:42:28,719 access to all the customer base, and 1182 00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:30,019 it doesn't matter if it's the best 1183 00:42:30,020 --> 00:42:31,699 service, but it's free. 1184 00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:33,589 And so people will use that. 1185 00:42:33,590 --> 00:42:36,049 And Wikipedia is a community 1186 00:42:36,050 --> 00:42:38,419 project. Never would have 1187 00:42:38,420 --> 00:42:40,399 taken off and come to the point where 1188 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:41,400 they are right now. 1189 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,509 So the reason 1190 00:42:50,510 --> 00:42:52,669 I mean, this is all known for for quite 1191 00:42:52,670 --> 00:42:54,859 some time, but the reason why I wanted 1192 00:42:54,860 --> 00:42:57,079 to to mention this here is because 1193 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:58,080 of this letter, 1194 00:42:59,150 --> 00:43:00,150 Jila 1195 00:43:01,460 --> 00:43:03,139 amended its net neutrality law to 1196 00:43:03,140 --> 00:43:04,759 prohibit price discrimination zero 1197 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,699 rating. They want to outlaw that as well. 1198 00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:09,999 And Wikimedia 1199 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,349 Media actively engaged in the policy 1200 00:43:12,350 --> 00:43:15,469 debate in Scheeler and fought 1201 00:43:15,470 --> 00:43:17,599 this amendment, fought civil rights 1202 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,699 legislation to 1203 00:43:19,700 --> 00:43:22,099 keep loopholes in there that would allow 1204 00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:24,290 them to offer Wikipedia zero. 1205 00:43:25,310 --> 00:43:27,689 And this was the tipping point for me 1206 00:43:27,690 --> 00:43:29,929 where I thought this 1207 00:43:29,930 --> 00:43:31,429 is not going in the right direction. 1208 00:43:31,430 --> 00:43:33,649 If a public 1209 00:43:33,650 --> 00:43:36,259 Fundación actively engages in 1210 00:43:36,260 --> 00:43:38,359 a policy battle abroad in another country 1211 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,759 to fight good legislation 1212 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,769 that has been pushed for by civil 1213 00:43:42,770 --> 00:43:45,109 society, we really have a problem 1214 00:43:45,110 --> 00:43:46,609 we have to talk about. 1215 00:43:46,610 --> 00:43:48,679 And also, even if we accept the basic 1216 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,169 premise that Wikipedia is a good thing, 1217 00:43:51,170 --> 00:43:52,819 it's hard to question whether cheater's 1218 00:43:52,820 --> 00:43:54,829 the right country for it because Chile is 1219 00:43:54,830 --> 00:43:56,269 not Africa. 1220 00:43:56,270 --> 00:43:58,279 In Chile, you have to spend like two 1221 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,829 percent of your monthly income to 1222 00:44:00,830 --> 00:44:02,869 afford a mobile prepaid Internet 1223 00:44:02,870 --> 00:44:04,069 subscription. 1224 00:44:04,070 --> 00:44:06,289 That similarly to Denmark. 1225 00:44:06,290 --> 00:44:08,479 And now we are not speaking of a country 1226 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,499 where there is no Internet in average. 1227 00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:12,619 Four hundred people in Chile, they have 1228 00:44:12,620 --> 00:44:15,349 130 mobile subscriptions. 1229 00:44:15,350 --> 00:44:17,509 So we're not speaking of 1230 00:44:17,510 --> 00:44:19,309 a developing country still. 1231 00:44:19,310 --> 00:44:21,649 I've been at Wikimania and I've talked 1232 00:44:21,650 --> 00:44:23,179 with people from the foundation that are 1233 00:44:23,180 --> 00:44:25,429 tasked with dealing these things and 1234 00:44:26,510 --> 00:44:28,219 they are country criteria for which 1235 00:44:28,220 --> 00:44:30,199 countries Wikipedia is considered or not. 1236 00:44:31,490 --> 00:44:33,079 They said they would publish them. 1237 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,329 Actually, so far they've done 1238 00:44:35,330 --> 00:44:36,330 nothing. 1239 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:39,889 And think to to end this 1240 00:44:39,890 --> 00:44:41,820 debate, we have to go back to the 1241 00:44:43,370 --> 00:44:44,959 vision statement of the Wikipedia 1242 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:45,960 Foundation. 1243 00:44:46,970 --> 00:44:48,469 Imagine a world in which every single 1244 00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:50,659 human being can freely share the sum 1245 00:44:50,660 --> 00:44:52,069 of all knowledge. 1246 00:44:52,070 --> 00:44:53,989 This is our commitment, and I'm 1247 00:44:53,990 --> 00:44:55,519 questioning whether the sum of all 1248 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,589 knowledge can only be one service of the 1249 00:44:57,590 --> 00:44:59,839 Internet, because what you're doing 1250 00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:01,869 is also they are opening the floodgates. 1251 00:45:01,870 --> 00:45:04,369 Facebook zero is right behind them. 1252 00:45:04,370 --> 00:45:06,139 Once Wikipedia is established in a 1253 00:45:06,140 --> 00:45:08,509 country, there is no way you can prevent 1254 00:45:08,510 --> 00:45:10,789 Facebook zero from following 1255 00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:12,139 on the steps. 1256 00:45:12,140 --> 00:45:14,329 And so we really have 1257 00:45:14,330 --> 00:45:17,419 to look at the larger picture here, 1258 00:45:17,420 --> 00:45:19,249 whether we want to continue 1259 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,729 in this direction and also have to 1260 00:45:22,730 --> 00:45:24,979 say that there is a battle within 1261 00:45:24,980 --> 00:45:27,139 Wikimedia and it's mostly the foundation 1262 00:45:27,140 --> 00:45:29,539 and some lawyers within the foundation 1263 00:45:29,540 --> 00:45:30,739 that are pushing for this 1264 00:45:32,180 --> 00:45:34,069 on on local chapters. 1265 00:45:34,070 --> 00:45:35,119 It might look differently. 1266 00:45:38,410 --> 00:45:40,329 So for time constraints, I'm going to do 1267 00:45:40,330 --> 00:45:41,349 this quick, rather quickly, 1268 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,109 so remember at the beginning, I was 1269 00:45:44,110 --> 00:45:46,509 talking about the two things 1270 00:45:46,510 --> 00:45:48,579 you should remember when you leaving 1271 00:45:48,580 --> 00:45:49,580 this room. 1272 00:45:50,950 --> 00:45:53,229 The first thing was ordinary citizens 1273 00:45:53,230 --> 00:45:54,939 putting energy on the political agenda 1274 00:45:54,940 --> 00:45:57,549 before and we need to do that again. 1275 00:45:57,550 --> 00:46:00,159 So that's what Thomas discussed 1276 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,619 about the European legislation. 1277 00:46:02,620 --> 00:46:04,779 If we want net neutrality 1278 00:46:04,780 --> 00:46:07,089 enshrined in European law, then 1279 00:46:07,090 --> 00:46:09,249 we you need to get in touch 1280 00:46:09,250 --> 00:46:11,689 with your ministries 1281 00:46:11,690 --> 00:46:13,989 in your member state, 1282 00:46:13,990 --> 00:46:16,059 because only that will 1283 00:46:16,060 --> 00:46:18,279 make them convinced that the people 1284 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,369 that you think 1285 00:46:21,370 --> 00:46:22,599 is important. 1286 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,849 So you need to so you can do that. 1287 00:46:24,850 --> 00:46:26,919 So go to the website, save the 1288 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,469 Internet to the EU and 1289 00:46:30,730 --> 00:46:32,709 help make this point. 1290 00:46:32,710 --> 00:46:35,139 If you want to do more, 1291 00:46:35,140 --> 00:46:37,239 get in touch with your 1292 00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:39,069 regional national digital civil rights 1293 00:46:39,070 --> 00:46:41,319 organization and do and help them 1294 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:42,999 with whatever you're good at. 1295 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,650 And if you can't spend any time, 1296 00:46:47,140 --> 00:46:50,109 do a donation and help them financially. 1297 00:46:50,110 --> 00:46:52,539 The other thing I 1298 00:46:52,540 --> 00:46:54,249 mentioned in the beginning was there are 1299 00:46:54,250 --> 00:46:56,289 unsolved issues and civil society needs 1300 00:46:56,290 --> 00:46:57,759 your expertize. 1301 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,819 So one of those unsolved issues is 1302 00:47:00,820 --> 00:47:03,279 the one that goes on, 1303 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,649 uh, the problem with, uh, 1304 00:47:05,650 --> 00:47:07,779 peering and transit's and 1305 00:47:07,780 --> 00:47:10,089 not going into details on that now. 1306 00:47:10,090 --> 00:47:12,159 But if you want to help, think with 1307 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,229 us on that, then come to 1308 00:47:14,230 --> 00:47:16,509 Noisey Square tomorrow at 5:00 1309 00:47:16,510 --> 00:47:18,579 where we have a workshop and where 1310 00:47:18,580 --> 00:47:21,009 we will discuss that problem 1311 00:47:21,010 --> 00:47:22,509 for now. 1312 00:47:22,510 --> 00:47:23,510 Question everything. 1313 00:47:27,130 --> 00:47:28,130 Thank you. 1314 00:47:36,810 --> 00:47:38,399 Thank you very much. 1315 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,529 Even though it took longer than 1316 00:47:40,530 --> 00:47:42,659 initially planned, we still have 1317 00:47:42,660 --> 00:47:45,089 quite some time for questions. 1318 00:47:46,410 --> 00:47:48,689 Let's start here in the MIKE three 1319 00:47:48,690 --> 00:47:51,150 and then go to the Internet. 1320 00:47:52,230 --> 00:47:54,989 Yeah, there's a couple of things 1321 00:47:54,990 --> 00:47:56,819 which are quite important for network 1322 00:47:56,820 --> 00:47:59,339 networking as well as 1323 00:47:59,340 --> 00:48:01,529 first, you want to have a level 1324 00:48:01,530 --> 00:48:03,749 playing field, not just on the IP 1325 00:48:03,750 --> 00:48:05,579 level, but also also on the fiber. 1326 00:48:05,580 --> 00:48:08,069 So I think 1327 00:48:08,070 --> 00:48:10,499 probably some of you already know 1328 00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:12,209 stock up, which is in stock. 1329 00:48:13,260 --> 00:48:15,689 They have a municipality 1330 00:48:15,690 --> 00:48:17,879 owned parabolic 1331 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,309 operator that's like 1332 00:48:20,310 --> 00:48:22,369 10 years ago already 1333 00:48:22,370 --> 00:48:24,449 that it was very common in Stockholm. 1334 00:48:24,450 --> 00:48:25,769 Look at the fiber to home 1335 00:48:27,010 --> 00:48:28,619 at that time. 1336 00:48:28,620 --> 00:48:30,329 It was 100 megabits or something like 1337 00:48:30,330 --> 00:48:32,519 that. But that's 1338 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:33,239 kind of critical. 1339 00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:35,759 Also, if you look at the US market, 1340 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:37,979 the Google Fiber is doing the same 1341 00:48:37,980 --> 00:48:38,980 thing over there 1342 00:48:41,460 --> 00:48:42,460 that 1343 00:48:43,540 --> 00:48:45,689 I had some other plots as well. 1344 00:48:45,690 --> 00:48:48,149 But the letter there's also 1345 00:48:48,150 --> 00:48:50,549 the complaint that the operators always 1346 00:48:50,550 --> 00:48:52,649 keep complaining about 1347 00:48:52,650 --> 00:48:55,049 how they can't profitably run 1348 00:48:55,050 --> 00:48:56,009 something. 1349 00:48:56,010 --> 00:48:58,109 It's important to tell them that, OK, 1350 00:48:58,110 --> 00:49:00,419 fine, we give the job to somebody 1351 00:49:00,420 --> 00:49:01,420 else because 1352 00:49:03,060 --> 00:49:05,369 not just the fiber, but just about every 1353 00:49:05,370 --> 00:49:06,869 every service you can. 1354 00:49:06,870 --> 00:49:08,609 If you level the playing field, there 1355 00:49:08,610 --> 00:49:11,219 will be someone who wants that market. 1356 00:49:11,220 --> 00:49:13,529 And at the moment, for 1357 00:49:13,530 --> 00:49:15,629 the Deutsche Telekom tells you that they 1358 00:49:15,630 --> 00:49:17,789 can't do it, then in 1359 00:49:17,790 --> 00:49:19,379 the process, you can also screw them, 1360 00:49:19,380 --> 00:49:21,569 screw the telecom, which 1361 00:49:21,570 --> 00:49:22,650 is very big benefit. 1362 00:49:24,100 --> 00:49:25,300 OK, that's let's 1363 00:49:26,570 --> 00:49:27,539 think of an answer. 1364 00:49:27,540 --> 00:49:29,639 Can it please remind everybody who 1365 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:30,599 is leaving? 1366 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:32,609 Be quiet. 1367 00:49:32,610 --> 00:49:33,389 Thank you. 1368 00:49:33,390 --> 00:49:35,459 OK, just one question, one 1369 00:49:35,460 --> 00:49:37,319 comment about what you said and 1370 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,690 particularly mentioned in Stockholm. 1371 00:49:40,770 --> 00:49:42,209 Personally, just as a note, I think 1372 00:49:42,210 --> 00:49:43,739 functional separation is something we 1373 00:49:43,740 --> 00:49:44,849 should aim for. 1374 00:49:44,850 --> 00:49:46,349 And I would like to see functional 1375 00:49:46,350 --> 00:49:48,539 separation in the political 1376 00:49:48,540 --> 00:49:50,879 programs of political parties, 1377 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,009 because that's honestly the only real 1378 00:49:53,010 --> 00:49:55,049 solution for the competition problem. 1379 00:49:55,050 --> 00:49:57,119 As long as a company owns 1380 00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,089 the infrastructure and also provides the 1381 00:49:59,090 --> 00:50:00,929 extra service over it, there will be no 1382 00:50:00,930 --> 00:50:01,979 real competition. 1383 00:50:01,980 --> 00:50:03,599 Only if you separate those two, 1384 00:50:04,950 --> 00:50:07,289 you can really adequately assess 1385 00:50:07,290 --> 00:50:09,509 the cost of infrastructure investment. 1386 00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:11,579 You can have a logical decision 1387 00:50:11,580 --> 00:50:13,679 about where to invest in infrastructure 1388 00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,019 and you have a race to the top instead 1389 00:50:16,020 --> 00:50:17,669 of to the bottom when it comes to 1390 00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:19,409 offering the maximum bandwidth 1391 00:50:19,410 --> 00:50:20,410 technically possible. 1392 00:50:25,150 --> 00:50:27,070 No question from the Internet. 1393 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,079 Yeah, there's one question 1394 00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,339 whether there is collaboration 1395 00:50:34,340 --> 00:50:36,939 sort with the Internet society 1396 00:50:36,940 --> 00:50:39,069 I usoc to gain people 1397 00:50:39,070 --> 00:50:40,389 power for Brussels. 1398 00:50:44,500 --> 00:50:46,809 Particularly access now is working 1399 00:50:46,810 --> 00:50:49,059 on this field with the 1400 00:50:49,060 --> 00:50:51,289 international Internet bodies. 1401 00:50:51,290 --> 00:50:53,469 There's also the 1402 00:50:53,470 --> 00:50:55,119 Net Neutrality Coalition, which was 1403 00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,249 founded to more 1404 00:50:57,250 --> 00:50:59,379 foster the academic debate, but also 1405 00:50:59,380 --> 00:51:01,749 close to the ATF and similar 1406 00:51:01,750 --> 00:51:02,750 bodies. 1407 00:51:03,610 --> 00:51:05,709 And there has been talk about 1408 00:51:05,710 --> 00:51:07,479 establishing net neutrality as a basic 1409 00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:09,389 principle on a UN level. 1410 00:51:10,390 --> 00:51:12,709 But these are all long term programs 1411 00:51:12,710 --> 00:51:14,889 and usually they don't kick back 1412 00:51:14,890 --> 00:51:17,319 towards the real hard 1413 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,479 national or supranational policy debates 1414 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,519 that we have in Europe or in the US. 1415 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:22,629 Definitely for the long term. 1416 00:51:22,630 --> 00:51:23,979 I think this is something we have to look 1417 00:51:23,980 --> 00:51:26,409 at, but short, medium term, 1418 00:51:26,410 --> 00:51:27,929 I think not much will happen there. 1419 00:51:29,630 --> 00:51:32,059 Now on microphone one, please. 1420 00:51:32,060 --> 00:51:33,229 Thank you very much, thank you for your 1421 00:51:33,230 --> 00:51:34,699 talk and thank you for the great work 1422 00:51:34,700 --> 00:51:36,799 already done for the European Parliament. 1423 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,449 Now, the fight is in the council. 1424 00:51:38,450 --> 00:51:40,189 That means that the fight is in all of 1425 00:51:40,190 --> 00:51:41,569 the European member states. 1426 00:51:41,570 --> 00:51:43,759 The problem is that we need to 1427 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:45,889 organize the fight that you did in the 1428 00:51:45,890 --> 00:51:48,439 Netherlands for each national 1429 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,569 state. How do we how 1430 00:51:50,570 --> 00:51:52,729 do we do that? How do we engage 1431 00:51:52,730 --> 00:51:54,949 consumer organizations and 1432 00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:57,259 make this about competition, equal 1433 00:51:57,260 --> 00:51:59,419 markets and consumers? 1434 00:51:59,420 --> 00:52:01,489 Because they weren't part of 1435 00:52:01,490 --> 00:52:03,300 the organizations that you mentioned that 1436 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:06,469 we actually established an answer to 1437 00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:07,279 that. 1438 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:08,479 It's a global coalition on net 1439 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:09,480 neutrality, 1440 00:52:10,670 --> 00:52:12,829 which is a network of NGOs all around 1441 00:52:12,830 --> 00:52:15,169 the world that care about net neutrality. 1442 00:52:15,170 --> 00:52:17,959 A good example is recently in Tunis, 1443 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,119 an ISP proposed new products, 1444 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,579 which is very similar to the ones that 1445 00:52:22,580 --> 00:52:24,979 KPN ISP in the Netherlands proposed, 1446 00:52:24,980 --> 00:52:27,349 that that kind of pushed a debate towards 1447 00:52:27,350 --> 00:52:28,669 the point where the net neutrality law 1448 00:52:28,670 --> 00:52:29,539 was established. 1449 00:52:29,540 --> 00:52:31,399 And because we had this global network, 1450 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,589 we could provide to local Tunisian 1451 00:52:33,590 --> 00:52:35,659 NGO with all the information, 1452 00:52:35,660 --> 00:52:37,849 all the arguments, all the materials they 1453 00:52:37,850 --> 00:52:40,699 needed to quickly 1454 00:52:40,700 --> 00:52:42,589 respond to this threat. 1455 00:52:42,590 --> 00:52:44,809 So this is a global debate and we'll 1456 00:52:44,810 --> 00:52:46,699 see it pop up in many more countries. 1457 00:52:46,700 --> 00:52:49,939 And I think only global collaboration 1458 00:52:49,940 --> 00:52:52,009 and information sharing and open 1459 00:52:52,010 --> 00:52:54,439 source can help to really 1460 00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,059 win this battle because the other side 1461 00:52:56,060 --> 00:52:58,489 has so much more money than we. 1462 00:52:58,490 --> 00:52:59,690 So and in addition to that, 1463 00:53:01,070 --> 00:53:03,409 has already mentioned during the during 1464 00:53:03,410 --> 00:53:06,229 talk that we the council, 1465 00:53:06,230 --> 00:53:08,449 that's a problem which is not limited to 1466 00:53:08,450 --> 00:53:10,189 net neutrality debate only. 1467 00:53:10,190 --> 00:53:12,319 So I think that the NGOs 1468 00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:14,419 in Europe need to make an 1469 00:53:14,420 --> 00:53:16,549 effort there and see and see how we 1470 00:53:16,550 --> 00:53:18,429 can do this better. 1471 00:53:18,430 --> 00:53:20,809 And so, for instance, 1472 00:53:20,810 --> 00:53:23,149 it's fairly easy. We are a fairly 1473 00:53:23,150 --> 00:53:25,729 professional organization, but 1474 00:53:25,730 --> 00:53:27,019 it's not just about Netherlands. 1475 00:53:27,020 --> 00:53:28,789 It's also about other countries where 1476 00:53:28,790 --> 00:53:30,829 other member states, where they have 1477 00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:33,829 less organized, where there's less 1478 00:53:33,830 --> 00:53:35,719 organized organizations. 1479 00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:37,849 So I'm not 1480 00:53:37,850 --> 00:53:39,919 sure what the answer 1481 00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,259 is to your question, but it's definitely 1482 00:53:42,260 --> 00:53:43,789 a hard one and definitely one we need to 1483 00:53:43,790 --> 00:53:44,790 fix. 1484 00:53:47,370 --> 00:53:49,019 Now back to my three 1485 00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:53,639 comments on the train, they could just 1486 00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:55,619 survive the bandwidth limits. 1487 00:53:55,620 --> 00:53:57,030 But my question is there 1488 00:53:58,380 --> 00:54:01,199 is any exemptions for emergencies 1489 00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,449 in 08, for example, because 1490 00:54:03,450 --> 00:54:05,519 on the traditional 1491 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,739 face calls, it don't you 1492 00:54:07,740 --> 00:54:09,869 don't even need a subscription or even 1493 00:54:09,870 --> 00:54:12,059 a SIM card in your phone 1494 00:54:12,060 --> 00:54:13,659 to call them services. 1495 00:54:13,660 --> 00:54:16,469 So the exemptions like that around. 1496 00:54:16,470 --> 00:54:18,839 And what about 1497 00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,089 the costs pricing to things differently 1498 00:54:21,090 --> 00:54:22,409 based on the cost of providing the 1499 00:54:22,410 --> 00:54:23,849 service, for example? 1500 00:54:23,850 --> 00:54:26,339 Could I give a larger one megabit, 1501 00:54:26,340 --> 00:54:28,619 100 megabits, even a cable 1502 00:54:28,620 --> 00:54:31,349 to my to make they take their third 1503 00:54:31,350 --> 00:54:33,729 line, but the 1504 00:54:33,730 --> 00:54:35,849 deluxe is much 1505 00:54:35,850 --> 00:54:38,219 faster speeds because local 1506 00:54:38,220 --> 00:54:40,199 traffic is much cheaper to provide. 1507 00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:42,509 So can local traffic be high 1508 00:54:42,510 --> 00:54:44,219 bandwidth? 1509 00:54:44,220 --> 00:54:45,869 The scale could apply to interplanetary 1510 00:54:45,870 --> 00:54:47,709 traffic as well. 1511 00:54:47,710 --> 00:54:49,360 Well, that example. 1512 00:54:51,660 --> 00:54:53,279 So I'm not sure whether I understand the 1513 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,099 question correctly, but if it is that 1514 00:54:56,100 --> 00:54:58,899 you could make a difference in 1515 00:54:58,900 --> 00:55:01,019 in a subscription for a local traffic 1516 00:55:01,020 --> 00:55:03,599 and, um, and have a 1517 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:05,070 different price attached to that 1518 00:55:06,270 --> 00:55:09,269 compared to traffic, which nonlocal 1519 00:55:09,270 --> 00:55:09,989 then? 1520 00:55:09,990 --> 00:55:11,699 I think that is not a good idea. 1521 00:55:11,700 --> 00:55:14,039 But and it would not work for the, 1522 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,109 uh, within the Dutch rules we have 1523 00:55:16,110 --> 00:55:16,999 now. 1524 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,349 Now, but I'm not sure if that if 1525 00:55:19,350 --> 00:55:21,419 if I gave an answer to your question 1526 00:55:21,420 --> 00:55:23,549 and make cannot attempt 1527 00:55:23,550 --> 00:55:24,870 to answer what I understood. 1528 00:55:25,890 --> 00:55:28,049 I mean, we had this 1529 00:55:28,050 --> 00:55:29,369 net neutrality legislation doesn't 1530 00:55:29,370 --> 00:55:31,469 prohibit you from, 1531 00:55:31,470 --> 00:55:33,089 for example, prioritizing emergency 1532 00:55:33,090 --> 00:55:35,789 numbers or also to like 1533 00:55:35,790 --> 00:55:37,769 if you have SNH sessions, which you need 1534 00:55:37,770 --> 00:55:40,079 to administer that infrastructure. 1535 00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:41,729 Those, of course, can be prioritized. 1536 00:55:41,730 --> 00:55:43,949 Um, these things which which 1537 00:55:43,950 --> 00:55:46,109 fulfill a purpose 1538 00:55:46,110 --> 00:55:48,359 and Udaan implement 1539 00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,759 its purpose application agnostic. 1540 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,309 So to all providers and protocols 1541 00:55:53,310 --> 00:55:55,409 which will fill this purpose, then it's 1542 00:55:55,410 --> 00:55:57,449 totally in line with net neutrality. 1543 00:55:57,450 --> 00:55:59,819 Um, application agnostic. 1544 00:55:59,820 --> 00:56:01,529 You can do a lot of things, particularly 1545 00:56:01,530 --> 00:56:03,089 when it comes to that and to it to the 1546 00:56:03,090 --> 00:56:03,989 payment part. 1547 00:56:03,990 --> 00:56:06,059 I was not totally sure what you mean. 1548 00:56:06,060 --> 00:56:07,319 It's definitely not in line with net 1549 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,989 neutrality that you pay 1550 00:56:09,990 --> 00:56:12,809 according to the geographical 1551 00:56:12,810 --> 00:56:15,419 distance, the data is flowing or what? 1552 00:56:15,420 --> 00:56:17,609 I mean, of course, an ISP can 1553 00:56:17,610 --> 00:56:20,489 differentiate themselves from 1554 00:56:20,490 --> 00:56:23,009 the bandwidth they are offering you to 1555 00:56:23,010 --> 00:56:25,229 access technology they are offering you. 1556 00:56:25,230 --> 00:56:26,909 These things are allocates. 1557 00:56:26,910 --> 00:56:29,069 It starts getting critical when you look 1558 00:56:29,070 --> 00:56:30,689 inside the data stream and you make a 1559 00:56:30,690 --> 00:56:32,909 difference between the 1560 00:56:32,910 --> 00:56:35,099 service that you actually use in 1561 00:56:35,100 --> 00:56:36,100 this pipe. 1562 00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,229 I don't know an answer, but 1563 00:56:39,230 --> 00:56:41,759 I can adjust 1564 00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:43,559 stiffly for different pipes and then 1565 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,749 backtrack so 1566 00:56:46,750 --> 00:56:47,729 that. 1567 00:56:47,730 --> 00:56:48,730 No. 1568 00:56:50,690 --> 00:56:52,789 No, no, and 1569 00:56:52,790 --> 00:56:54,829 usually you have, like, the abstractedly, 1570 00:56:54,830 --> 00:56:57,259 you often don't know which which 1571 00:56:57,260 --> 00:56:59,479 local physical pipe any connection 1572 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,089 will run through and within one session, 1573 00:57:02,090 --> 00:57:04,519 the actual physical route that 1574 00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:05,549 it's taking can change. 1575 00:57:05,550 --> 00:57:06,940 So this would not work. 1576 00:57:10,110 --> 00:57:12,259 Time is getting close to an end, but 1577 00:57:12,260 --> 00:57:14,189 microphone three, please. 1578 00:57:14,190 --> 00:57:16,789 I am working for a small ISP, 1579 00:57:16,790 --> 00:57:18,979 actually, and we 1580 00:57:18,980 --> 00:57:20,929 fully support net neutrality. 1581 00:57:20,930 --> 00:57:23,299 And you took 1582 00:57:23,300 --> 00:57:25,639 the answer to my question right now. 1583 00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:26,640 My question is, 1584 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:29,059 if we 1585 00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:32,849 take our pictures straight, 1586 00:57:32,850 --> 00:57:35,209 are pictures equally, then 1587 00:57:35,210 --> 00:57:37,459 maybe voice over IP calls may get 1588 00:57:38,660 --> 00:57:41,089 some bad connections. 1589 00:57:41,090 --> 00:57:43,369 And if you would implement 1590 00:57:43,370 --> 00:57:45,829 quality of service for this, would this 1591 00:57:45,830 --> 00:57:48,109 fulfill the mind 1592 00:57:48,110 --> 00:57:50,869 of net neutrality or 1593 00:57:50,870 --> 00:57:52,039 would it be something's 1594 00:57:53,060 --> 00:57:53,809 broken? 1595 00:57:53,810 --> 00:57:54,979 Yeah. 1596 00:57:54,980 --> 00:57:57,409 So remember 1597 00:57:57,410 --> 00:57:59,539 the explanatory memorandum I showed in 1598 00:57:59,540 --> 00:58:01,679 the beginning that tells 1599 00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,429 what the goal is of the 1600 00:58:04,430 --> 00:58:05,750 Dutch net neutrality law? 1601 00:58:07,100 --> 00:58:09,379 So the goal is, again, 1602 00:58:09,380 --> 00:58:11,779 to maximize the freedom of speech, 1603 00:58:11,780 --> 00:58:13,879 the freedom of 1604 00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:15,349 the Internet user. 1605 00:58:15,350 --> 00:58:16,489 So with that in mind, 1606 00:58:17,630 --> 00:58:19,699 doing quality of service 1607 00:58:19,700 --> 00:58:21,829 to a certain extent is acceptable 1608 00:58:21,830 --> 00:58:24,199 because it will, uh, 1609 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,269 uh, improve this freedom. 1610 00:58:26,270 --> 00:58:28,349 If you would not apply the 1611 00:58:28,350 --> 00:58:30,499 scale of your service, then, uh, 1612 00:58:30,500 --> 00:58:33,019 the freedom would deter a.. 1613 00:58:33,020 --> 00:58:35,269 So, for example, uh, voice 1614 00:58:35,270 --> 00:58:37,429 over IP, uh, it's 1615 00:58:37,430 --> 00:58:39,829 very helpful to do some 1616 00:58:39,830 --> 00:58:41,479 quality of service there because 1617 00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,909 otherwise you can't make a call, um, 1618 00:58:43,910 --> 00:58:46,969 and doing the quality of service you 1619 00:58:46,970 --> 00:58:49,849 provided. You do this for all for 1620 00:58:49,850 --> 00:58:52,219 the same way that will help freedom. 1621 00:58:52,220 --> 00:58:53,220 So that will be OK. 1622 00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:57,469 And one last question 1623 00:58:57,470 --> 00:58:59,629 from microphone to please. 1624 00:58:59,630 --> 00:59:01,670 Well, the question is more like a comment 1625 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:03,949 I've seen. 1626 00:59:03,950 --> 00:59:05,599 I think you did the talk last year on 1627 00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:06,829 this one read. 1628 00:59:06,830 --> 00:59:08,839 Well, back then it seemed like everything 1629 00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:10,699 is doomed and nothing can be changed 1630 00:59:10,700 --> 00:59:12,739 anymore. And that was quite a surprise 1631 00:59:12,740 --> 00:59:14,089 coming in here today and hearing all this 1632 00:59:14,090 --> 00:59:16,949 stuff, because my sort of 1633 00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:19,699 my attention drifted away from it. 1634 00:59:19,700 --> 00:59:21,709 And I wanted to say is like, thank you 1635 00:59:21,710 --> 00:59:22,819 for whatever you did. 1636 00:59:22,820 --> 00:59:24,799 It's just magic that it's happened to be 1637 00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:26,089 like this right now. 1638 00:59:26,090 --> 00:59:28,399 So, again, it's not what we did 1639 00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:30,559 or did. Not only it's what you did. 1640 00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:32,629 Yes. Because all of you went 1641 00:59:32,630 --> 00:59:33,529 to. Right. 1642 00:59:33,530 --> 00:59:35,989 Went to safety Internet you 1643 00:59:35,990 --> 00:59:38,269 and send a fax to the members 1644 00:59:38,270 --> 00:59:40,699 of parliament and that made a change. 1645 00:59:40,700 --> 00:59:42,409 And if you didn't, you have to do it now, 1646 00:59:44,330 --> 00:59:45,330 unfortunately. 1647 00:59:49,910 --> 00:59:51,979 That's all the time we have. 1648 00:59:51,980 --> 00:59:54,199 So, once again, thank you for 1649 00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:56,509 your talk and for your input 1650 00:59:56,510 --> 00:59:58,520 and the political work of everybody here.