1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,510 *34C3 preroll music* 2 00:00:15,510 --> 00:00:19,647 Herald: Welcome everybody to our next talk “Nabovarme open source heating 3 00:00:19,647 --> 00:00:24,328 infrastructure in Christiania”. So I would like to know who of you has already been 4 00:00:24,328 --> 00:00:28,704 to Christiania, that little free state in Copenhagen? 5 00:00:28,704 --> 00:00:32,744 That looks like maybe 60% or something like that. 6 00:00:32,744 --> 00:00:37,787 Now, I have good or bad news for you, depending on how you see it. 7 00:00:37,787 --> 00:00:42,771 If you mainly associate Christiania with weed, there will be no mention of weed 8 00:00:42,771 --> 00:00:47,818 in this talk, whatsoever, after my introduction, so tone down the expectations. 9 00:00:47,818 --> 00:00:52,231 But we will have a very interesting talk about neighborhood heating, 10 00:00:52,231 --> 00:00:56,523 that’s what Nabovarme means, I just learned it today. *laughs* 11 00:00:56,523 --> 00:01:00,007 So I would like to introduce our speakers, but they will introduce themselves 12 00:01:00,007 --> 00:01:03,273 in a moment, too. We have Emmerik, Johannes and Kristoffer. 13 00:01:03,273 --> 00:01:06,443 And I would like you to give them a warm round of applause! 14 00:01:06,443 --> 00:01:12,373 *applause* 15 00:01:12,373 --> 00:01:16,378 Emmerik: Okay. Thank you very much for coming here today and 16 00:01:16,378 --> 00:01:20,233 listening to us. I’m Emmerik. Kristoffer: I’m Kristoffer. 17 00:01:20,233 --> 00:01:23,133 Johannes: And I’m Johannes. Emmerik: And I will do the talking; 18 00:01:23,133 --> 00:01:27,844 I was elected to do the talking by these good guys, and 19 00:01:27,844 --> 00:01:32,634 Kristoffer and Johannes will answer questions afterwards and I ask you, please 20 00:01:32,634 --> 00:01:37,241 ask a lot of questions, because I think we have a little extra spare time. 21 00:01:37,241 --> 00:01:43,011 Thank you! 22 00:01:43,011 --> 00:01:50,011 So what is Nabovarme? It’s actually 23 00:01:50,011 --> 00:01:56,236 a distributed central heating system organization thing. 24 00:01:56,236 --> 00:02:00,954 And Nabovarme is a word 25 00:02:00,954 --> 00:02:07,124 for community heating. We have several heating systems developed 26 00:02:07,124 --> 00:02:12,924 by the 14 local areas in Christiania. 27 00:02:12,924 --> 00:02:17,628 The basic of Christiania heating has been pellets 28 00:02:17,628 --> 00:02:24,582 for the last 5 or 10 years. Pellets is 29 00:02:24,582 --> 00:02:29,652 these small things that you saw in the beginning, that you had in the hands, 30 00:02:29,652 --> 00:02:35,631 let’s go back to this, see the pellets, wooden pellets that you burn. 31 00:02:35,631 --> 00:02:41,254 We have a lot of common pellet heating systems inside Christiania, 32 00:02:41,254 --> 00:02:46,224 those are the red dots, the large red dots. And the small orange dots 33 00:02:46,224 --> 00:02:52,539 is local heaters in just one family. And we have lots more 34 00:02:52,539 --> 00:02:56,558 small orange systems than you have seen here, but we didn’t have time 35 00:02:56,558 --> 00:03:02,623 to put them in. The history of heaters. 36 00:03:02,623 --> 00:03:08,414 We tried to find some good pictures of the original Christiania 37 00:03:08,414 --> 00:03:14,104 oil barrel stove. But we couldn’t. It’s difficult, 38 00:03:14,104 --> 00:03:20,090 they’re all gone. They burned through back in the ’70s. So all we have 39 00:03:20,090 --> 00:03:25,181 are these on the left, a very common old stove 40 00:03:25,181 --> 00:03:30,371 from the ’80s. Then we have of course the oil heating system, 41 00:03:30,371 --> 00:03:35,845 number 2 from left, which was common in the ’90s, and still is common 42 00:03:35,845 --> 00:03:41,875 somewhere in Christiania. Then we have the Bekkasin oven, which is 43 00:03:41,875 --> 00:03:47,560 a popular oven in Denmark for wood, for logs, and 44 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:53,162 you see to the right a typical Christiania installation, which is 45 00:03:53,162 --> 00:03:59,332 just a tube going through the side of the building, and, 46 00:03:59,332 --> 00:04:04,916 you know, burning pellets inside and smoke outside. Not very modern, 47 00:04:04,916 --> 00:04:13,620 not very efficient, and coming to its end. 48 00:04:13,620 --> 00:04:19,899 What we have done is we have taken some very old meters 49 00:04:19,899 --> 00:04:26,071 when we installed… those meters, when we installed some surveillance 50 00:04:26,071 --> 00:04:31,486 and monitoring on the pellet systems that we have. 51 00:04:31,486 --> 00:04:36,137 Now we’re in the phase of combining the users that had these oil heaters, 52 00:04:36,137 --> 00:04:42,476 the wood stoves, the small pellet heaters into larger systems that perform better. 53 00:04:42,476 --> 00:04:47,206 And the central role for improvement is logging the heat usage, and finding ways 54 00:04:47,206 --> 00:04:54,216 of making everyone pay the necessary amount and pay it in time. 55 00:04:54,216 --> 00:05:00,854 The logging system consists of these Multical 602, 56 00:05:00,854 --> 00:05:06,744 that was first. They were very old 57 00:05:06,744 --> 00:05:12,359 when we found them second hand, and then we have improved them with the 58 00:05:12,359 --> 00:05:18,287 switch-mode power supply to the right, in the right picture, and 59 00:05:18,287 --> 00:05:24,717 with a WiFi gadget in connection, so making it into a smart meter. 60 00:05:24,717 --> 00:05:31,026 The billing and the heating on/off is done through our custom made database. 61 00:05:31,026 --> 00:05:37,783 So remote logging makes maintenance much easier and can over time improve the efficiency 62 00:05:37,783 --> 00:05:43,503 of the heating system. That can help the users being more interested in taking part 63 00:05:43,503 --> 00:05:49,858 of the heating consumption problems which is one of our time’s main 64 00:05:49,858 --> 00:05:57,758 global warming issues, you know. 65 00:05:57,758 --> 00:06:03,688 Well, our Nabovarme organizations are organized into the communities. 66 00:06:03,688 --> 00:06:08,974 And in our most modern system every user is using our newly developed 67 00:06:08,974 --> 00:06:14,734 prepaid consumption. You know, before people would go down and buy 68 00:06:14,734 --> 00:06:20,594 some logs of wood. And then would go home and burn them. When the burning ended 69 00:06:20,594 --> 00:06:26,379 they were cold. They felt the cool and they went back, buy more logs, and 70 00:06:26,379 --> 00:06:32,488 heating it, again. So first you buy, then you have the heat. The same model goes 71 00:06:32,488 --> 00:06:38,811 into our prepaid consumption: first you pay for the heat and then you consumpt. 72 00:06:38,811 --> 00:06:45,658 And then when your use is over the valve turns off. That is a very simple model 73 00:06:45,658 --> 00:06:52,178 and it means that there is no deficit nowhere. That means organizing 74 00:06:52,178 --> 00:06:56,548 the receiving money in advance for heat and inserting the equivalent amount 75 00:06:56,548 --> 00:07:02,718 of energy into the system database. When the user has consumed what he’s paid for 76 00:07:02,718 --> 00:07:11,132 the module automatically turns off the valve to the user. 77 00:07:11,132 --> 00:07:17,728 The thing is that Christiania was founded as on top of an old military base 78 00:07:17,728 --> 00:07:23,478 which is actually coming back to 1680s, 79 00:07:23,478 --> 00:07:29,079 when the city of Copenhagen was defending itself against the Swedes, the German 80 00:07:29,079 --> 00:07:36,081 and the English. That data base was left in the 1960s, 81 00:07:36,081 --> 00:07:42,199 and was just empty as you see it on this old photo. 82 00:07:42,199 --> 00:07:46,539 In 2011 the government of Denmark 83 00:07:46,539 --> 00:07:53,193 won a lawsuit against Christiania. That means that the free town was forced 84 00:07:53,193 --> 00:07:59,365 to follow the regulations of Denmark. At the same time Christiania was declared 85 00:07:59,365 --> 00:08:04,884 legal, and that resulted in that the local people in Christiania 86 00:08:04,884 --> 00:08:09,673 wanted to improve their house standards much more 87 00:08:09,673 --> 00:08:15,403 than was used to before. So they put in investments in our infrastructure 88 00:08:15,403 --> 00:08:20,823 and in our houses on a longer time horizon; now we invest up to 89 00:08:20,823 --> 00:08:25,804 30 years in advance, and that’s the whole difference than before, when it was just 90 00:08:25,804 --> 00:08:31,711 for 1 or 2 years people would climb up something. 91 00:08:31,711 --> 00:08:40,789 The whole infrastructure is changing in these years. 92 00:08:40,789 --> 00:08:46,409 Christiania is quite large. It’s 46 years old, 93 00:08:46,409 --> 00:08:52,198 and it has almost 1.000 inhabitants. Actually the 900 that you see here 94 00:08:52,198 --> 00:08:58,332 are the inhabitants that we know of. But there are many people that just live 95 00:08:58,332 --> 00:09:03,693 there, without having a place to stay. That means that they change rooms, 96 00:09:03,693 --> 00:09:09,008 they sleep on sofas, they kind of roam around within the community. 97 00:09:09,008 --> 00:09:15,326 So there may well be a thousand, I don’t know. There are at least 265 houses 98 00:09:15,326 --> 00:09:22,226 and 24 hectares of land. 99 00:09:22,226 --> 00:09:28,056 There is a heating construction. 100 00:09:28,056 --> 00:09:32,216 It’s a very easy kind of. 101 00:09:32,216 --> 00:09:36,098 You burn pellets. That’s it. But when you extend this 102 00:09:36,098 --> 00:09:42,158 to larger systems it can be quite complex. 103 00:09:42,158 --> 00:09:46,582 The pellet burners are difficult to keep in steady production. But they’re cheap 104 00:09:46,582 --> 00:09:51,507 and can be handled by the local users. Special effort has been done 105 00:09:51,507 --> 00:09:57,054 to ensure that the heating system keeps running smoothly all the time by 106 00:09:57,054 --> 00:10:03,701 constantly improving the heaters and the steering units, that’s the left picture. 107 00:10:03,701 --> 00:10:08,001 You see: there are some yellow add-ons on top and bottom 108 00:10:08,001 --> 00:10:16,256 and those are added-on to an existing heating system that we have bought. 109 00:10:16,256 --> 00:10:20,967 We have added air pressure to ensure that the ashes are blown away from the heaters’ 110 00:10:20,967 --> 00:10:25,459 surface at regular intervals. And that you can see on the left picture 111 00:10:25,459 --> 00:10:31,827 on the blue tubes. And we’re planning to add scrubbers to clean the flue gas. 112 00:10:31,827 --> 00:10:37,598 That means you have… when the smoke comes out of the chimney 113 00:10:37,598 --> 00:10:43,397 you have a problem with pollution, and we want to take the pollution out of the gas. 114 00:10:43,397 --> 00:10:48,740 And this is yet to come but we’re in the process of doing that as well. 115 00:10:48,740 --> 00:10:52,842 We’re now engaged in improving the logging by the use of the Kamstrup meters 116 00:10:52,842 --> 00:10:58,365 you see in the center top picture and use Raspberry Pi’s as well 117 00:10:58,365 --> 00:11:02,579 to monitor the steering units. That’s the bottom picture. 118 00:11:02,579 --> 00:11:07,837 That’s coming out of a Raspberry Pi. We are fortunate to have 119 00:11:07,837 --> 00:11:14,145 several LANs running inside Christiania. Those we can use 120 00:11:14,145 --> 00:11:19,198 for propagating the samples and monitor them, that’s the right picture here. 121 00:11:19,198 --> 00:11:26,576 So you see all these green points are actually WiFi spots. 122 00:11:26,576 --> 00:11:31,714 A typical Nabovarme installation consists of a heating production center, 123 00:11:31,714 --> 00:11:37,138 some heating consumers, some WiFi infrastructure and a web portal used 124 00:11:37,138 --> 00:11:43,561 for plotting consumption and accounting. Well, the back… 125 00:11:43,561 --> 00:11:49,061 when we started off the Kamstrup solution meters, they were 126 00:11:49,061 --> 00:11:54,855 not very smart, they could actually take care 127 00:11:54,855 --> 00:11:59,685 of the metering of consumers but we in the city lack the ability 128 00:11:59,685 --> 00:12:04,968 to gather these samples for later accounting. So the Kamstrup company 129 00:12:04,968 --> 00:12:10,007 had some solutions for smart metering which supports multiple protocols: 130 00:12:10,007 --> 00:12:16,698 we have the Wireless M-Bus, the Zigbee and many more protocols, 131 00:12:16,698 --> 00:12:22,760 but there was no WiFi. That meant to us that investing 132 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:29,029 in a new infrastructure for just metering was very costly and unnecessary. 133 00:12:29,029 --> 00:12:34,094 Their solutions required a new infrastructure for propagation and 134 00:12:34,094 --> 00:12:38,797 data gathering and the need for certified electricians to install it. 135 00:12:38,797 --> 00:12:44,500 The Kamstrup solutions also required a subscription plan in order to gain access 136 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:51,141 to our own data and we did not like that. So, 137 00:12:51,141 --> 00:12:57,621 nowadays, many people in Christiania 138 00:12:57,621 --> 00:13:03,073 have their own WiFi hotspots. Christiania users are willing to open theirs 139 00:13:03,073 --> 00:13:07,333 to the heating meters and that is a way to reduce the costs of having 140 00:13:07,333 --> 00:13:11,913 to manually read the meter, and it’s a way to get through the WiFi 141 00:13:11,913 --> 00:13:17,223 up to our servers. 142 00:13:17,223 --> 00:13:22,555 When researching the existing open source options from the Kamstrup to create 143 00:13:22,555 --> 00:13:27,934 a meter logger we ran across the ESP8266. 144 00:13:27,934 --> 00:13:33,293 That’s a microcontroller and when it first came out it was small and cost effective 145 00:13:33,293 --> 00:13:39,684 enough to be inserted into the meters and it had the WiFi capabilities 146 00:13:39,684 --> 00:13:44,414 to transmit the samples over the existing infrastructure, 147 00:13:44,414 --> 00:13:48,895 that means all the WiFis that you saw, the green points. 148 00:13:48,895 --> 00:13:55,259 Later, thanks to martin-ger’s ESP library we were able to extend the coverage 149 00:13:55,259 --> 00:14:00,701 to places that lacked their own hot spots. That means that we could hop in… 150 00:14:00,701 --> 00:14:08,651 that our meter solution could be like an extra hot spot and transmit all the data 151 00:14:08,651 --> 00:14:18,061 through some of the heaters to the next hot spot, and on to the servers. 152 00:14:18,061 --> 00:14:24,630 We created a daughter board 153 00:14:24,630 --> 00:14:30,940 to be inserted in the Kamstrup meters consisting of the ESP8266 154 00:14:30,940 --> 00:14:36,060 with its flash and WiFi capabilities, some triacs for controlling 155 00:14:36,060 --> 00:14:42,579 the external valve, you know, the valve that can turn off and on for the consumers 156 00:14:42,579 --> 00:14:49,644 and a separate power supply unit to power everything. And this picture that you see 157 00:14:49,644 --> 00:14:56,275 here is put into the living space of the people that are attached to the 158 00:14:56,275 --> 00:15:06,080 Nabovarme system. So everyone has one like this. 159 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:12,050 We had a problem. Because Kamstrup 160 00:15:12,050 --> 00:15:19,161 had an open source protocol, KMP, but it was very difficult to read it and to 161 00:15:19,161 --> 00:15:24,790 read about it. It didn’t kind of work out, and we had to spend a few months to 162 00:15:24,790 --> 00:15:30,202 reverse-engineer a range of their devices and they are now supported in our meter 163 00:15:30,202 --> 00:15:36,349 logger firmware. And the meter logger firmware 164 00:15:36,349 --> 00:15:41,372 takes care of the net translations for extending the WiFi, 165 00:15:41,372 --> 00:15:45,372 and through a grace period during boot you’re able to set up 166 00:15:45,372 --> 00:15:51,309 a target access point to connect to. That means that 167 00:15:51,309 --> 00:15:56,971 when you first set it up you find the WiFi spots around, and you find the best one, 168 00:15:56,971 --> 00:16:02,796 and you log it into that one. If you later need to change that 169 00:16:02,796 --> 00:16:07,035 you pass along with your own telephone a special code, and then you can change 170 00:16:07,035 --> 00:16:12,435 that point again. That’s a grace period, that’s just 171 00:16:12,435 --> 00:16:17,322 a minute or two, and that’s it. So after that grace period it goes over 172 00:16:17,322 --> 00:16:24,184 to sample mode. The scheduler asks the meter for a sample 173 00:16:24,184 --> 00:16:30,760 every minute. And the KMP – the Kamstrup – requests 174 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:36,558 talks to the meter over serial, and the KMP receives the data and does 175 00:16:36,558 --> 00:16:42,258 checksum before all floating it to the MQTT. 176 00:16:42,258 --> 00:16:48,735 The MQTT dispatcher takes care of transmitting the sample to the server. 177 00:16:48,735 --> 00:16:54,459 And then other part of the firmware closes the hot water valve if the last sample 178 00:16:54,459 --> 00:17:00,292 resolves in excessive consumption based on the readings from the user’s account. 179 00:17:00,292 --> 00:17:06,828 So this is how we can actually turn off the user, or actually the thing does it 180 00:17:06,828 --> 00:17:12,678 automatically. If there’s no more money on that account 181 00:17:12,678 --> 00:17:17,996 it automatically switches off. Like when you go down and buy the log and put it 182 00:17:17,996 --> 00:17:24,945 into your existing old heater it burns down. It’s cold. 183 00:17:24,945 --> 00:17:30,106 Same system. And that transparency makes it easy for people 184 00:17:30,106 --> 00:17:36,974 to understand some of the… Well, that’s it. 185 00:17:36,974 --> 00:17:42,806 Well. 186 00:17:42,806 --> 00:17:48,196 From the client side you have the overview of a client. This is 187 00:17:48,196 --> 00:17:53,975 what the client sees of the production and the use of Nabovarme. 188 00:17:53,975 --> 00:17:59,777 We have the propagation temperature 189 00:17:59,777 --> 00:18:05,227 and you have the return temperature, you have the temperature difference 190 00:18:05,227 --> 00:18:10,047 and you have the flow and you have the consumption. 191 00:18:10,047 --> 00:18:16,328 These five graphs you can zoom in and just have it at 1 or 2 minutes 192 00:18:16,328 --> 00:18:20,005 or you can have it for a period like you have from, here, 1st of January 193 00:18:20,005 --> 00:18:24,430 to the 5th of March. But you can also have it for 2 years, 3 years 194 00:18:24,430 --> 00:18:30,176 or just 1 minute, 2 minutes. So this is very easy for people 195 00:18:30,176 --> 00:18:35,695 to see how is there a usage, when and how much 196 00:18:35,695 --> 00:18:41,655 do they actually spend. 197 00:18:41,655 --> 00:18:44,425 Now the accounting system. 198 00:18:44,425 --> 00:18:48,568 That’s one of the headaches for everybody: how to get the money in. 199 00:18:48,568 --> 00:18:54,224 We want to supply, we want to share but we need some money for the pellets. 200 00:18:54,224 --> 00:19:00,198 How do you do it? And first, of course, you would just put it on a document 201 00:19:00,198 --> 00:19:05,208 on your computer, “my neighbor has given me five crowns” 202 00:19:05,208 --> 00:19:10,492 – as we’d use in Denmark – or 10 Euros, “this for the heating of the pellet 203 00:19:10,492 --> 00:19:15,115 from that day to that day”. Ok. And when you have a lot of documents 204 00:19:15,115 --> 00:19:20,656 it makes it very difficult, of course. So you would start with using Excel 205 00:19:20,656 --> 00:19:26,106 spreadsheets or, you know, Opendocs spreadsheets, or whatever, 206 00:19:26,106 --> 00:19:32,077 you know. And in due time you find out that’s complex too, it makes it difficult. 207 00:19:32,077 --> 00:19:36,657 So, then some good guys started making 208 00:19:36,657 --> 00:19:42,234 custom made applications. And this is one of them, this is actually the 209 00:19:42,234 --> 00:19:47,482 latest application called CA (means Christiania, 210 00:19:47,482 --> 00:19:52,632 FORBRUG means expenditure). We’ve developed that 211 00:19:52,632 --> 00:19:57,442 over time and this is for electricity, this is a red one, 212 00:19:57,442 --> 00:20:02,652 you see, and that means that it’s electricity expenditure, and there is 213 00:20:02,652 --> 00:20:09,603 every year one, usually the consumer, but also maybe the area cashier 214 00:20:09,603 --> 00:20:15,356 goes from house to house, takes the number, and puts it into this accounting 215 00:20:15,356 --> 00:20:21,169 system. So you see there, some of them are from 2006, some are from 2015 216 00:20:21,169 --> 00:20:28,127 – one is from ’15 and two is from 2017. This is the expenditure of electricity. 217 00:20:28,127 --> 00:20:33,609 We want of course to do that also for heat. 218 00:20:33,609 --> 00:20:39,336 And this is maybe possible but we need some more people to help us 219 00:20:39,336 --> 00:20:46,176 doing that. So, all this require, of course, individual consumption, 220 00:20:46,176 --> 00:20:50,987 total consumption and production expenses to make this all work. 221 00:20:50,987 --> 00:20:56,328 And that is increasingly difficult to handle. And, on top of that, users are 222 00:20:56,328 --> 00:21:02,370 more demanding. They want to know “how much do I have in our little bank”, or 223 00:21:02,370 --> 00:21:09,463 “how much do I owe the little bank” or “how can we actually balance things up”. 224 00:21:09,463 --> 00:21:13,823 And these data are of course very precious to us, and we do not want to share them 225 00:21:13,823 --> 00:21:18,645 with large companies for anti-surveillance reasons, and this is why we built up 226 00:21:18,645 --> 00:21:24,016 this whole infrastructure, to keep the knowledge inside and to gain total access 227 00:21:24,016 --> 00:21:28,575 of it; but it’s a lot of work, I tell you. 228 00:21:28,575 --> 00:21:32,765 The last thing is, we need your help! 229 00:21:32,765 --> 00:21:38,675 We would love to get some more help on how to improve 230 00:21:38,675 --> 00:21:44,105 things in our systems, and how to cooperate with making the systems 231 00:21:44,105 --> 00:21:49,337 talk together. And we have, on the left side of the stage, 232 00:21:49,337 --> 00:21:54,017 we have ‘Stoffer’ here, he’s our busfactor, you know? If somebody 233 00:21:54,017 --> 00:21:59,691 from bus runs him down, the knowledge is gone. What can we do, we need some more 234 00:21:59,691 --> 00:22:05,576 people knowing what is going on. Our society is so small that we do not know 235 00:22:05,576 --> 00:22:11,514 what to do. If one person disappears a lot of knowledge 236 00:22:11,514 --> 00:22:16,780 disappears with him. So this is a serious problem for us. And then 237 00:22:16,780 --> 00:22:22,310 along, as well, is the demand for the people that we are serving, 238 00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:28,110 they want to know more and more specific details on the consumption, 239 00:22:28,110 --> 00:22:33,503 the production, the energy, the economy. It’s very difficult. 240 00:22:33,503 --> 00:22:38,990 On top of all these things we have installed a lot of solar panels inside Christiania, 241 00:22:38,990 --> 00:22:45,329 to stop using so much of electricity that we buy, and getting down 242 00:22:45,329 --> 00:22:50,965 on buying the pellets. So all these different consumption models, 243 00:22:50,965 --> 00:22:55,959 they coincide, and they need to be balanced out, and we need 244 00:22:55,959 --> 00:23:01,869 to monitor them, to see how much do we actually gain, how much do we lose. 245 00:23:01,869 --> 00:23:07,677 So please, if you have questions – we have the problems 246 00:23:07,677 --> 00:23:13,969 and you can apply if you want to come work with us at the ‘Christiania Researcher in 247 00:23:13,969 --> 00:23:18,659 Residence’ that is the house that we have in Christiania, designed for people that 248 00:23:18,668 --> 00:23:25,317 want to know about Christiania, are going to read or do something, some active sessions 249 00:23:25,317 --> 00:23:30,257 in Christiania. They can come and stay with us for a month, or come back even, 250 00:23:30,257 --> 00:23:37,015 and get some interaction with Christiania. So, thank you for your time, 251 00:23:37,015 --> 00:23:43,762 and I hope you have a lot of questions that we will be glad to answer. Thank you. 252 00:23:43,762 --> 00:23:51,092 *applause* 253 00:23:51,092 --> 00:23:54,598 Herald: Thank you very much for the presentation, Emmerik! So, as you have 254 00:23:54,598 --> 00:23:58,815 heard, we have around 5 minutes for questions, and you have heard, they are 255 00:23:58,815 --> 00:24:04,638 in dire need of ideas, inspirations, support and help. So 256 00:24:04,638 --> 00:24:07,972 line up at the microphones if you have questions. I will start with the internet 257 00:24:07,972 --> 00:24:13,227 if there is a question from the internet. Is that the case? 258 00:24:13,227 --> 00:24:14,724 Signal Angel: No questions yet. 259 00:24:14,724 --> 00:24:17,661 Herald: Alright, then we start with microphone no. 6. 260 00:24:17,661 --> 00:24:20,684 Mic 6: Have you given any… Herald: Please, yeah, perfect. 261 00:24:20,684 --> 00:24:23,979 Mic 6: Have you given any… great talk by the way, thank you, 262 00:24:23,979 --> 00:24:28,771 is there any facts for the distribution of pellets to be more efficient within, 263 00:24:28,771 --> 00:24:32,972 not just like the heating, and how does the actual physical distribution of the 264 00:24:32,972 --> 00:24:36,624 pellets work, and is there any automation ideas around that? 265 00:24:36,624 --> 00:24:39,973 Johannes: Right, … Kristoffer: You got it? 266 00:24:39,973 --> 00:24:42,106 Johannes: We don’t have any sound right now… 267 00:24:42,106 --> 00:24:47,386 Emmerik: I think we lack some sound on Stoffer and on Johannes. 268 00:24:47,386 --> 00:24:52,466 Here is Stoffer. Could you say hello? Kristoffer: Yes, I’m trying to! Hello? 269 00:24:52,466 --> 00:24:57,505 Herald: I think it’s on now! Emmerik: It’s on, it just needs louder! 270 00:24:57,505 --> 00:25:01,277 Johannes: Yes, so right now we have… Emmerik: Could you have the question again? 271 00:25:01,277 --> 00:25:04,847 Johannes: Yes, the question was if we are using any automation for the pellet 272 00:25:04,847 --> 00:25:09,691 systems and the distribution of them. Right now we have huge silos at each 273 00:25:09,691 --> 00:25:14,479 distribution center. So we kind of just get a truck that comes in and, 274 00:25:14,479 --> 00:25:19,165 with pressured air, it just blows all the pellets into these giant silos. Usually 275 00:25:19,165 --> 00:25:24,744 at these productions centers we then have redundant heating production units, 276 00:25:24,744 --> 00:25:28,504 so if one of them goes down we can switch to the other one. 277 00:25:28,504 --> 00:25:33,910 But when it comes to distribution of costs then it is 278 00:25:33,910 --> 00:25:39,366 still small isolated communities that consume their own pellets systems, 279 00:25:39,366 --> 00:25:43,424 so the budget of one small community doesn’t go into the budget of another 280 00:25:43,424 --> 00:25:47,658 community. I hope that was answering the question. 281 00:25:47,658 --> 00:25:50,555 Herald: Alright, microphone no. 1, please. 282 00:25:50,555 --> 00:25:55,865 Mic 1: Hi, thanks for the talk, from me as well. I was wondering if, like… 283 00:25:55,865 --> 00:26:01,209 usually you say, first you do isolation on the buildings and then 284 00:26:01,209 --> 00:26:05,966 you renew the heating systems. Did you do that, because I… like from the photos, 285 00:26:05,966 --> 00:26:10,554 it seems like there’s a lot of old buildings, and stuff. So that would be my first idea 286 00:26:10,554 --> 00:26:17,321 to lower the energy consumption and then putting your system on. 287 00:26:17,321 --> 00:26:23,962 Emmerik: Thank you for… your question looks like this, in here: 288 00:26:23,962 --> 00:26:29,329 first you should insulate your buildings, and then you could add the heating system 289 00:26:29,329 --> 00:26:33,749 instead of the other way round. Is that your question? 290 00:26:33,749 --> 00:26:37,832 Mic 1: Well, I was just wondering if you, like just said, okay, we’re putting 291 00:26:37,832 --> 00:26:42,402 new heating systems, or we first try to lower the consumption and 292 00:26:42,402 --> 00:26:46,412 then look for a new system that, yeah, comes… 293 00:26:46,412 --> 00:26:53,753 Emmerik: The thing is that once you’re poor, first you want to heat to survive. 294 00:26:53,753 --> 00:26:59,361 And then, when you survive, you just suddenly find out there are ways that are 295 00:26:59,361 --> 00:27:04,016 smarter than the ones you thought of before. So you find a house, you stay 296 00:27:04,016 --> 00:27:08,496 there, and you heat it. You don’t find a house insulated and start heating, 297 00:27:08,497 --> 00:27:14,985 no. It’s the other way around. And this tends to extend into many decades. 298 00:27:14,985 --> 00:27:19,812 So that we have a number of very, very old houses, and they’re… some of them are 299 00:27:19,812 --> 00:27:26,151 heritage-restricted, and some of them are just in very bad shape, and 300 00:27:26,151 --> 00:27:31,158 many squatters have been living there before us, and they have not contributed 301 00:27:31,158 --> 00:27:37,758 to the betterment of the houses. Right now, as in a new situation, as we 302 00:27:37,765 --> 00:27:44,650 are looking into eternity, I mean, we’re staying here, we’re not being forced out 303 00:27:44,650 --> 00:27:51,133 by the police or anybody. So, we think longer terms, we say, maybe people live 304 00:27:51,133 --> 00:27:56,501 for 5 years here, but they should contribute to the roof that lasts 30 years 305 00:27:56,501 --> 00:28:00,893 and they should contribute to the insulation that we need to have a better 306 00:28:00,893 --> 00:28:07,092 house in all thirty years. And this is a plan that takes time and effort. 307 00:28:07,092 --> 00:28:13,412 And also needs to be propagated into the mindset of people in Christiania. 308 00:28:13,412 --> 00:28:19,768 And not easy. So first you deliver pellets, you give them heat, you find out 309 00:28:19,768 --> 00:28:24,733 how to avoid the pellets; and you give them insulation to avoid the heat. 310 00:28:24,733 --> 00:28:27,089 This is the way it has been. 311 00:28:27,089 --> 00:28:28,299 Herald: All right think now… 312 00:28:28,299 --> 00:28:32,279 Emmerik: I think you have an extra question? No, is that? 313 00:28:32,279 --> 00:28:35,998 Herald: Maybe you can just find the other people who still have questions, we don’t 314 00:28:35,998 --> 00:28:39,582 have time for all the questions, and you can just talk to them. Now I think it’s 315 00:28:39,582 --> 00:28:44,502 the internet’s turn to ask a question, because they cannot find you afterwards. 316 00:28:44,502 --> 00:28:49,292 Signal Angel: Yes, the internet has some questions. First question is: would it be 317 00:28:49,292 --> 00:28:53,515 possible to have some holiday in Christiania and 318 00:28:53,515 --> 00:28:56,125 help you with your project? 319 00:28:56,125 --> 00:29:01,383 Johannes: Yes, yes, it would be possible, very possible. So please 320 00:29:01,383 --> 00:29:06,919 come join us! You can apply through this web address up here, crir.net. 321 00:29:06,919 --> 00:29:11,807 And you can stay there up to one month, free of charge, of course while contributing. 322 00:29:11,807 --> 00:29:17,743 And we have a very low level of documentation so a lot of human 323 00:29:17,743 --> 00:29:21,801 communication is needed, so you’re very much welcome. Come and join us, and 324 00:29:21,801 --> 00:29:26,403 help us reduce the bus factor – he’s taking the bus every day, we are just waiting 325 00:29:26,403 --> 00:29:29,734 for him to die! So come and join us and help us! 326 00:29:29,734 --> 00:29:33,807 Herald: And I think on that note of the extension of a very kind invitation to 327 00:29:33,807 --> 00:29:37,089 all of you to come and join them and work with them, we have to close the talk. 328 00:29:37,089 --> 00:29:41,158 I saw you all people at microphones 1, 2 and 8 but unfortunately we don’t have 329 00:29:41,158 --> 00:29:45,083 any more time. But just come and find the speakers after the talk, and discuss with 330 00:29:45,083 --> 00:29:48,334 them all the open questions you still have. So please give another warm 331 00:29:48,334 --> 00:29:51,579 round of applause to Johannes, Kristoffer and Emmerik! 332 00:29:51,579 --> 00:29:54,811 *applause* 333 00:29:54,811 --> 00:30:10,367 *postroll music* 334 00:30:10,367 --> 00:30:15,181 *subtitles created by c3subtitles.de in the year 2018*