1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:20,870 *36c3 preroll music* 2 00:00:20,870 --> 00:00:24,390 Herald: ...but now we start what we're here for and I'm really happy to be 3 00:00:24,390 --> 00:00:30,550 allowed to introduce Anna Mazgal. She will talk about something which a great title. 4 00:00:30,550 --> 00:00:36,397 I love it. "Confessions of a Future Terrorist". Terror, terrorism is the one 5 00:00:36,397 --> 00:00:40,450 thing you can always shout out and you get everything through. And she will give us a 6 00:00:40,450 --> 00:00:47,590 rough guide to overregulate free speech with anti-terrorist measures. Anna works 7 00:00:47,590 --> 00:00:51,950 for Wikimedia where she's a lobbyist of human rights into the digital environment 8 00:00:51,950 --> 00:00:56,810 and works in Brussels. And she gives a lot of talk. And I think it's the first time 9 00:00:56,810 --> 00:00:59,430 at a congress for her, is that right? Anna: Second time. 10 00:00:59,430 --> 00:01:03,330 Herald: Second time? I haven't really researched right, because I searched for 11 00:01:03,330 --> 00:01:08,360 it. So I have to do this again. It's her 2nd time for congress and I'm really 12 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,295 happy to have her here. Please welcome her with a big round of applause. 13 00:01:12,295 --> 00:01:22,244 Anna, the stage is yours. Anna: Thank you. Yes. So as you have 14 00:01:22,244 --> 00:01:27,598 already heard, I don't do any of the cool things that we comedians and Wikipedians 15 00:01:27,598 --> 00:01:34,390 do. I am based in Brussels and the L-word, I do the lobbying on behalf of our 16 00:01:34,390 --> 00:01:42,850 community. And today I am here because I wanted to talk to you about one of the 17 00:01:42,850 --> 00:01:48,331 proposals of 4 laws that we are now observing the development of. And I wanted 18 00:01:48,331 --> 00:01:53,200 to share my concerns also like active, as an activist, because I'm really worried 19 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:58,070 how, if that law passes in its worst possible vision or one of the of the bad 20 00:01:58,070 --> 00:02:02,160 versions, how it will affect my work. I'm also concerned how it would it will affect 21 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:09,390 your work. And basically all of ours expression online. And I also want to 22 00:02:09,390 --> 00:02:16,420 share with you that this law makes me really angry. So, so I think these are a 23 00:02:16,420 --> 00:02:22,690 few good reasons to be here and to talk to you. And I hope after this presentation we 24 00:02:22,690 --> 00:02:26,370 can have a conversation about this. And I'm looking forward also to your 25 00:02:26,370 --> 00:02:34,379 perspective on it and, and also the things you may not agree with maybe. So, so what 26 00:02:34,379 --> 00:02:41,590 is this law? So, in September 2018, the European Commission came out with a 27 00:02:41,590 --> 00:02:46,379 proposal of regulation on preventing the dissemination of terrorist content 28 00:02:46,379 --> 00:02:53,799 online. So there are a few things to unpack here of for what it is about. First 29 00:02:53,799 --> 00:02:58,950 of all, when we see a law that is about Internet and that is about the content and 30 00:02:58,950 --> 00:03:03,019 what is about the online environment and it says it will prevent something, this 31 00:03:03,019 --> 00:03:09,297 always brings a very difficult and complicated perspective for us, the 32 00:03:09,297 --> 00:03:13,569 digital rights activists in Brussels. Because prevention online never means 33 00:03:13,569 --> 00:03:19,680 anything good. So, so this is one thing. The other thing is that this very troubled 34 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:24,359 concept of terrorist content, I will be talking about this more, we will talk, I 35 00:03:24,359 --> 00:03:28,619 will show you how the European Commission understands it and what are the problems 36 00:03:28,619 --> 00:03:33,393 with that understanding and whether this is something that can actually be really 37 00:03:33,393 --> 00:03:42,189 defined in the law. So, so these are the, the already the red flags that I have seen 38 00:03:42,189 --> 00:03:48,349 and we have seen when we were, when we first got them, the proposal, into our 39 00:03:48,349 --> 00:03:53,030 hands. I would like to tell you a little bit about the framework of it. This is 40 00:03:53,030 --> 00:04:01,309 probably the, the most dry part of that, but I think it's important to correctly 41 00:04:01,309 --> 00:04:07,049 place it. First of all, this is the European Union legislation. So we're 42 00:04:07,049 --> 00:04:15,739 talking about the legislation that will influence 27 member states. Maybe 28, but 43 00:04:15,739 --> 00:04:23,350 we know about Brexit, so, so that is a debatable what's going to happen there. 44 00:04:23,350 --> 00:04:29,020 And it's important to note that whenever we have European legislation in the EU, 45 00:04:29,020 --> 00:04:35,599 this is the, these are the laws that actually are shaping the laws of all those 46 00:04:35,599 --> 00:04:40,280 countries. And they come before the national laws. So, so should this, should 47 00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:45,590 this be implemented in any of the form, when it's implemented in any of the form, 48 00:04:45,590 --> 00:04:52,520 this is what is going to happen. The next important part of information that I want 49 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,930 to give you is that this particular regulation is a part of the framework that 50 00:04:56,930 --> 00:05:03,320 is called Digital Single Market. So the European Union, one of, one of the 51 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:09,270 objectives when a European Commission created the law and when other 52 00:05:09,270 --> 00:05:14,560 bodies of the European Union work on it, is that there is, that, that the laws in 53 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:20,535 the member states of the European Union are actually similar. And 54 00:05:20,535 --> 00:05:25,990 the Digital Single Market means that what we want, we want to achieve something on 55 00:05:25,990 --> 00:05:30,570 the Internet that in a way is already achieved within the European Union 56 00:05:30,570 --> 00:05:35,950 geographically, meaning that we don't want the borders on the Internet between people 57 00:05:35,950 --> 00:05:40,659 communicating and also delivering goods and services in the European Union. 58 00:05:40,659 --> 00:05:44,580 And you may ask how that connects with the terrorist content and how 59 00:05:44,580 --> 00:05:50,091 that connects with what today's topics. To be honest, I am also puzzled because I 60 00:05:50,091 --> 00:05:57,470 think, that legislation that talks about how people communicate online and what is 61 00:05:57,470 --> 00:06:01,650 considered the speech that we wanted there and we don't want this should not be a 62 00:06:01,650 --> 00:06:08,130 part of a framework that is about market. So this is also something that 63 00:06:08,130 --> 00:06:18,340 brings a concern. Also, as you've seen at the first slide, this piece of 64 00:06:18,340 --> 00:06:23,530 legislation, this proposal is called the regulation. And not to go too much into 65 00:06:23,530 --> 00:06:30,880 details about what are the forms of legislation in the EU, the important thing 66 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:37,360 to know here is that the regulation is a law that once it is adopted by the EU, 67 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:43,530 once the parliament votes on it, it starts, it is binding directly in 68 00:06:43,530 --> 00:06:48,120 all the member states of the European Union, which means that there is no 69 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:52,880 further discussion on how this should be actually used. Of course, in each country 70 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,510 there are different decisions being made by different bodies. But it means for us, 71 00:06:57,510 --> 00:07:02,103 the people that work on this and that want to influence the legislative process, that 72 00:07:02,103 --> 00:07:05,911 once this law is out of Brussels, there is nothing much to be done 73 00:07:05,911 --> 00:07:13,780 about how it's going to be implemented. And this is 74 00:07:13,780 --> 00:07:18,780 important because for now, the discussion about this, because for us, the discussion 75 00:07:18,780 --> 00:07:23,755 about this, is the one that happens in Brussels. There are a few versions of the 76 00:07:23,755 --> 00:07:29,300 law. And very quickly, European Commission proposes the law. European Parliament 77 00:07:29,300 --> 00:07:34,390 looks at it, debates it, and then produces its own version of it. So amends it or 78 00:07:34,390 --> 00:07:39,196 makes it worse. And then the Council of the EU, which is the gathering of all the 79 00:07:39,196 --> 00:07:42,760 member states and the representatives of the government of the 80 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,449 member states, also creates their own version. And then, of course, when you 81 00:07:46,449 --> 00:07:49,931 have 3 versions, you also need to have a lot of conversations and a lot of 82 00:07:49,931 --> 00:07:54,260 negotiation, how to put this together into one. And all of those bodies have their 83 00:07:54,260 --> 00:07:59,710 own ideas. Every one of those bodies have their own ideas on how any law should 84 00:07:59,710 --> 00:08:04,950 look like. So this process is not only complicated, but also this negotiation 85 00:08:04,950 --> 00:08:10,950 that is called the trilogs. It's actually very non-transparent. And there is no or 86 00:08:10,950 --> 00:08:15,680 almost none, no official information about how those negotiations go, what are the 87 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:20,530 versions of the document and so on. This is the part that we are now in. And I will 88 00:08:20,530 --> 00:08:26,000 talk more about this later on. Today I want to talk to you about the potential 89 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,325 consequences of diversion. That is the original one, which is the European 90 00:08:31,325 --> 00:08:36,450 Commission's version. And it's because it will be very complicated and 91 00:08:36,450 --> 00:08:40,659 confusing I guess, if we look at all of the proposals that are on the table. But 92 00:08:40,659 --> 00:08:45,184 also, it's important because European Commission has a lot of influence also 93 00:08:45,184 --> 00:08:53,530 informally, both on member states and also on - to an extent - on the whole trial 94 00:08:53,530 --> 00:08:59,340 process. So whatever gains we have in other versions or whatever better 95 00:08:59,340 --> 00:09:05,330 solutions we have there, they are not secure yet. And I promise I'm almost 96 00:09:05,330 --> 00:09:10,520 done with this part. There is other relevant legislation that we'll 97 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:15,779 consider. One is the E-Commerce Directive. And in this, the part that is 98 00:09:15,779 --> 00:09:20,900 very relevant is for this particular conversation, is that the platforms, 99 00:09:20,900 --> 00:09:27,710 according to this law or Internet services or hosting providers are not by default 100 00:09:27,710 --> 00:09:32,733 responsible for the content that users play, place online. So it's a very 101 00:09:32,733 --> 00:09:38,830 important premise that also protects us, protects our rights, protects our privacy, 102 00:09:38,830 --> 00:09:47,235 that the they are not, they cannot go after us or they cannot look for, for 103 00:09:47,235 --> 00:09:50,970 the content that could be potentially illegal, which would mean that they would 104 00:09:50,970 --> 00:09:55,540 have to look into everything. But of course, they have to react when somebody 105 00:09:55,540 --> 00:10:01,420 notifies them and they have to see whether the information that is placed by the 106 00:10:01,420 --> 00:10:08,027 users should stay up or not. There is also a directive on combating terrorism. And 107 00:10:08,027 --> 00:10:13,193 this is the piece of legislation that is quite recent to my best 108 00:10:13,193 --> 00:10:17,360 knowledge. Not all countries in the European Union, not all member states have 109 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:23,110 implemented it yet. So for us, it was also very puzzling that we actually have a new 110 00:10:23,110 --> 00:10:29,959 law, a new proposal that is talking about the communication part of, of what already 111 00:10:29,959 --> 00:10:33,990 has been mentioned in this directive. When we still don't know how it works, we still 112 00:10:33,990 --> 00:10:39,490 don't know because this law is physically not being used at all. So this was for 113 00:10:39,490 --> 00:10:46,170 us also difficult to understand why the commission does not want to wait and see 114 00:10:46,170 --> 00:10:55,025 how like what comes out from the directive on combating terrorism. So 115 00:10:55,025 --> 00:11:00,500 why would the European Commission and why the European legislators would 116 00:11:00,500 --> 00:11:06,270 actually want such a law that, again, is about the content that people post 117 00:11:06,270 --> 00:11:17,050 through different services and why this is an important issue. If this is, why this 118 00:11:17,050 --> 00:11:21,840 issue is actually conflated with the market questions and the 119 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:28,650 harmonization in the digital market. So there are some serious numbers here. 94 % 120 00:11:28,650 --> 00:11:33,610 and 99 %. And I'm wondering if you have any idea what those numbers are about. 121 00:11:33,610 --> 00:11:36,220 Audience: Persons. Anna: I'm sorry? 122 00:11:36,220 --> 00:11:41,348 Audience: Persons. Anna: Yes. It's about people. But the 123 00:11:41,348 --> 00:11:46,810 numbers are actually presenting, so there was a survey done by Eurostat and those 124 00:11:46,810 --> 00:11:52,420 numbers present the percentage of people first number 94 % presents the 125 00:11:52,420 --> 00:11:59,210 percentage of people that say that they have not come across terrorist content 126 00:11:59,210 --> 00:12:09,100 online. Right. So, inversely, only 6 % of people actually say that they had 127 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:13,110 access to terrorist content, it's important to underline that they say it 128 00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:19,320 because there's no way to check what that content actually was and of course we can, 129 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:25,160 you know, here is the analogy of what a certain American judge said about 130 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,420 pornography. I know it when I see it. It's not a very good definition of anything, 131 00:12:29,420 --> 00:12:36,460 really. So I would argue that actually 6 % of people being affected by something 132 00:12:36,460 --> 00:12:40,300 is not really a big percentage and that the European Union actually has bigger 133 00:12:40,300 --> 00:12:45,950 problems to deal with and where they can spend money and energy on. E.g., we are 134 00:12:45,950 --> 00:12:49,978 all affected by, I don't know, air pollution and that's much more people. 135 00:12:49,978 --> 00:12:57,261 89% are the people in the age range between 15 and 24. But again, were not 136 00:12:57,261 --> 00:13:00,981 affected by something what they would consider terrorist content. Of course, 137 00:13:00,981 --> 00:13:04,134 would somebody think of the children? There you go. 138 00:13:04,134 --> 00:13:08,020 The children and young people do not also experience 139 00:13:08,020 --> 00:13:15,920 it in an overwhelming, overwhelmingly. So, but this rationale 140 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:22,570 is being used, 6 % and 11 % as one of the reasons why this regulation is 141 00:13:22,570 --> 00:13:27,380 important, why this law is important. The other is the exposure to, the other reason 142 00:13:27,380 --> 00:13:32,470 is the exposure to imagery of violent crimes via social media. So, of course, we 143 00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:38,470 know that, that platforms such as Facebook and YouTube contain all sorts of things 144 00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:43,484 that people look. We also know that because of their business models, they 145 00:13:43,484 --> 00:13:54,689 sometimes push controversial content or violent content into, into peoples 146 00:13:54,689 --> 00:13:59,570 proposal, that the proposals that they give to people to, to watch or to 147 00:13:59,570 --> 00:14:06,029 read. So this is, actually the 2nd part is not addressed by this, by this 148 00:14:06,029 --> 00:14:11,880 proposal at all. But nevertheless, whenever we talk to the representatives of 149 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:17,060 the commission why this law is there, they start waving, that was my experience that 150 00:14:17,060 --> 00:14:21,500 the one of the meetings, the person started waving his phone at me and saying, 151 00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:25,217 "Well, you know, there are beheading videos online and I can show you how 152 00:14:25,217 --> 00:14:27,790 horrible it is", which I consider to be an emotional 153 00:14:27,790 --> 00:14:32,112 blackmail at best, but not really a good regulatory impulse. 154 00:14:32,112 --> 00:14:36,730 So I guess maybe the commission people are somehow 155 00:14:36,730 --> 00:14:41,630 mysteriously affected by that content more than anything else. I don't mean to joke 156 00:14:41,630 --> 00:14:49,160 about those, those videos because of course, it is not something that I would 157 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:54,860 want to watch and, and it is very violent. But I would also argue that the problem is 158 00:14:54,860 --> 00:14:58,974 not that the video is there, but that somebody has been beheaded. And this is 159 00:14:58,974 --> 00:15:02,710 where we should actually direct our attention and look for the sources of that 160 00:15:02,710 --> 00:15:08,890 sort of behavior and not only to try and clean the Internet. The other reason why, 161 00:15:08,890 --> 00:15:16,870 why this law should be enacted is a radicalisation. Of course, this is a, 162 00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:21,903 this is a problem for certain vulnerable populations and people. And we 163 00:15:21,903 --> 00:15:25,970 can read about it a lot. And there are organizations that are dealing with 164 00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:31,720 strategies to counteract radicalisation. Again, when we look at the evidence, what 165 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:38,459 is the, what is the relationship between content that is available online and the 166 00:15:38,459 --> 00:15:42,588 fact that people get radicalized in different level, in different ways, that 167 00:15:42,588 --> 00:15:46,060 we didn't see any research and the commission also did not present any 168 00:15:46,060 --> 00:15:50,870 research that would actually point to at least the correlation between the two. So 169 00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:56,649 again, asked about, so "How did you come up with this idea since without really 170 00:15:56,649 --> 00:16:02,825 actually showing the, the support for your claim that radicalisation is connected to 171 00:16:02,825 --> 00:16:08,519 that?" This is a quote from a meeting that happened public and journalists were 172 00:16:08,519 --> 00:16:12,590 there. Again, the person from the commission said, "We had to make a guess, 173 00:16:12,590 --> 00:16:18,560 so we made the guess that way." There is the guess being, yes, there is some sort 174 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:23,501 of connection between the content and the radicalisation. And then finally, when we 175 00:16:23,501 --> 00:16:27,560 read the impact assessment and when we look at the different articles, that or 176 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:33,027 different explanations that the European Commission posts about the 177 00:16:33,027 --> 00:16:38,850 rationale for this law, of course, they bring the terrorists attack that have 178 00:16:38,850 --> 00:16:47,300 been happening and they make, they swiftly go from naming the different violent 179 00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:52,930 events that have happened in Europe very recently or quite recently. 180 00:16:52,930 --> 00:16:58,459 And they swiftly make a connection between the fact that somebody took a truck and 181 00:16:58,459 --> 00:17:05,500 and run into a group of people. Or that somebody was participating in the shooting 182 00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:10,419 or organizing the shooting of people enjoying themselves.They swiftly go from 183 00:17:10,419 --> 00:17:15,350 this to the fact that regulation of the content is needed. Which also, the fact 184 00:17:15,350 --> 00:17:19,456 that you put something in one sentence does not mean it makes sense. Right? So 185 00:17:19,456 --> 00:17:24,290 this is also not very well documented. Again, pressed about this, the 186 00:17:24,290 --> 00:17:28,398 representative of the European Commission said that, well, "We know that and it has 187 00:17:28,398 --> 00:17:33,780 been proven in the investigation, that one of the people that were responsible for 188 00:17:33,780 --> 00:17:37,758 the Bataclan attack actually used the Internet before that happened. 189 00:17:37,758 --> 00:17:46,357 *laughter* Yes. No more comment needed on that one. 190 00:17:46,357 --> 00:17:52,160 So, well, clearly, there are "very good reasons", quote unquote, to spend time 191 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:59,140 and citizens money on working on the new law. And I always say that 192 00:17:59,140 --> 00:18:03,102 basically these laws are created because, not because there is a reason, but 193 00:18:03,102 --> 00:18:06,439 because there is a do-something-doctrine. Right. We have a problem, we 194 00:18:06,439 --> 00:18:15,999 have to do something. And this is how this law, I think, came to be. And the 195 00:18:15,999 --> 00:18:22,990 do-something-doctrine in this particular case, or also, of course, it encompasses a 196 00:18:22,990 --> 00:18:28,330 very broad and blurry definition of that law. I will talk about this more in a 197 00:18:28,330 --> 00:18:33,620 moment. It also encompasses measures, we, if we define something that we want to 198 00:18:33,620 --> 00:18:41,370 counteract to, we have to basically say what should happen. Right. So that the 199 00:18:41,370 --> 00:18:46,192 problem is being solved. And there are 3 measures that they will also explain. One 200 00:18:46,192 --> 00:18:50,809 is the removal orders. The other is referrals. And the third are so-called 201 00:18:50,809 --> 00:18:56,749 proactive measures. This is, I guess, the part where we touch the prevention 202 00:18:56,749 --> 00:19:06,501 most. And then the third issue is that, the one of the things I also want to talk 203 00:19:06,501 --> 00:19:10,340 about is the links between the content that is being removed and the actual 204 00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:14,780 investigations or prosecutions that may occur, because of course it's possible 205 00:19:14,780 --> 00:19:20,576 that there will be some content found that actually does document the crime. And 206 00:19:20,576 --> 00:19:32,510 then what do we do about that? So, going forward, I do think that the definition 207 00:19:32,510 --> 00:19:37,390 and this law is basically, its main principle is to normalize the state 208 00:19:37,390 --> 00:19:44,679 control over how people communicate and what they wanted to say. As it was said 209 00:19:44,679 --> 00:19:50,630 before, under the premise of terrorism, we can actually pack a lot of different 210 00:19:50,630 --> 00:19:56,890 things because people are afraid of this. And we have also examples from other 211 00:19:56,890 --> 00:20:02,740 topics, other laws that have been debated in Brussels. One was public sector 212 00:20:02,740 --> 00:20:10,080 information directive, where everybody was very happy discussing how much public 213 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,980 information should be released and where it should come from and how people should 214 00:20:13,980 --> 00:20:18,980 have access to it. And a part of public information is the information that is 215 00:20:18,980 --> 00:20:23,760 produced by companies that perform public services, but they may also be private, 216 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,027 for example, sometimes transport, public transport is provided that way. And 217 00:20:28,027 --> 00:20:31,929 actually public transport providers were the ones that were saying that they cannot 218 00:20:31,929 --> 00:20:36,549 release the information that they have, namely timetables and other 219 00:20:36,549 --> 00:20:44,270 information about how the system works that could be useful for citizens 220 00:20:44,270 --> 00:20:49,350 because then it may be used by terrorists. I guess that maybe prevents the potential 221 00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:53,510 terrorists from going from bus stop to bus stop and figuring out how the buses go. 222 00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:57,530 But we already know that this does not work that way. So this is something 223 00:20:57,530 --> 00:21:04,040 that actually normalizes this approach. And let's first look at the definition of 224 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:09,899 the proposal as presented by the European Commission. So they say 225 00:21:09,899 --> 00:21:14,120 basically, let me read: "Terrorist content means one or more of the following 226 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:20,720 information. So a) inciting or advocating, including by glorifying, the commission of 227 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,990 terrorist offences". I do apologise for the horrible level of English 228 00:21:25,990 --> 00:21:32,040 that they use, I don't know why and that I don't apologise for them, but for the fact 229 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,960 that they expose you to it. "The commission of terrorist offences, 230 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,240 *Clapping* thereby causing a danger that such acts be 231 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,650 committed". You won't believe how many times I had to read all this to actually 232 00:21:44,650 --> 00:21:48,525 understand what all those things mean. "Encouraging the contribution to terrorist 233 00:21:48,525 --> 00:21:56,749 offences". So contribution could be money, could be some, I guess material resources. 234 00:21:56,749 --> 00:22:00,679 "Promoting the activities of a terrorist group, in particular by encouraging the 235 00:22:00,679 --> 00:22:05,702 participation in or support to a terrorist group. Instructing on methods or 236 00:22:05,702 --> 00:22:10,076 techniques for the purpose of committing terrorist offenses". And then there is 237 00:22:10,076 --> 00:22:16,230 also the definition of "dissemination of terrorist content". That basically means 238 00:22:16,230 --> 00:22:20,490 "making terrorist content available to third parties on the hosting service 239 00:22:20,490 --> 00:22:26,830 providers services". As you can probably see, the dissemination and the fact that 240 00:22:26,830 --> 00:22:33,360 third parties are evoked mean that this law is super broad. So it's not only about 241 00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:38,200 social media because making content available through third parties may mean 242 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:43,290 that I am sharing something over some sort of service with my mom and she is a third 243 00:22:43,290 --> 00:22:48,860 party in the understanding of this law. So we were actually super troubled to see 244 00:22:48,860 --> 00:22:54,350 that not only does it encompass services that make information available to the 245 00:22:54,350 --> 00:22:58,809 public. So the one that we all can see like social media, but also that 246 00:22:58,809 --> 00:23:04,530 potentially it could be used against services that make, let people communicate 247 00:23:04,530 --> 00:23:09,810 privately. So that is a that is a big issue. The second thing I wanted to direct 248 00:23:09,810 --> 00:23:17,660 your attention to is the parts that they put in italics. It's how soft those 249 00:23:17,660 --> 00:23:25,178 those concepts are, inciting, advocating, glorifying, encouraging, promoting. This 250 00:23:25,178 --> 00:23:29,470 is a law that actually potentially can really influence how we talk and how to 251 00:23:29,470 --> 00:23:33,610 communicate what we wanted to talk about, whether we agree or disagree with certain 252 00:23:33,610 --> 00:23:41,572 policies or certain political decisions. And all those things are super soft. And 253 00:23:41,572 --> 00:23:47,090 it's very, very hard to say what does it really mean. And I want to 254 00:23:47,090 --> 00:23:53,679 give you an example of the same content used in 3 different cases to 255 00:23:53,679 --> 00:23:59,820 illustrate this. So let's imagine we have a group of people that recorded a video 256 00:23:59,820 --> 00:24:03,950 and on those videos, they say that, well, basically they call 257 00:24:03,950 --> 00:24:10,650 themselves terrorists, to make it easier, and they say that they wanted to 258 00:24:10,650 --> 00:24:16,820 commit all sorts of horrible things in specific places, so that constitutes like 259 00:24:16,820 --> 00:24:21,702 some sort of a credible threat. And they also bragged that they killed someone. And 260 00:24:21,702 --> 00:24:25,401 they also say that they're super happy about this and so on. And they also, of 261 00:24:25,401 --> 00:24:29,620 course, encourage others to join them and so on and so on. And the 3 cases would be: 262 00:24:29,620 --> 00:24:35,871 1 would be that this particular group posted videos on, I don't know, their 263 00:24:35,871 --> 00:24:41,340 YouTube channel. The other case would be that there is a media outlet that reports 264 00:24:41,340 --> 00:24:47,265 on it and either links to this video or maybe present snippets of it. And the 265 00:24:47,265 --> 00:24:51,480 third case would be, for example, that there is some sort of group that is 266 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:57,370 actually following what's happening in that region and collects evidence that can 267 00:24:57,370 --> 00:25:01,020 then help identify the people and prosecute them for the crimes they commit. 268 00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:07,975 Like the crime that's our exemplary terrorists admitted to 269 00:25:07,975 --> 00:25:13,400 committing. And do you think that according to this definition, in your 270 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,347 opinion, do you think that there is a difference between those 3 types of 271 00:25:18,347 --> 00:25:23,020 presenting that content between the terrorist group that is presenting it on 272 00:25:23,020 --> 00:25:27,919 their channel, between the media outlet and between the activists? There is none. 273 00:25:27,919 --> 00:25:34,660 Because this law has nothing, does not define in any way that the so-called 274 00:25:34,660 --> 00:25:42,179 terrorist content is something that is published with an intention of actually 275 00:25:42,179 --> 00:25:48,980 advocating and glorifying. So the problem is that not only does the content that, 276 00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:54,226 let's say, is as weak as we may call it manifestly illegal. So somebody kills 277 00:25:54,226 --> 00:25:58,706 someone and is being recorded and we know it's a crime and perhaps we don't want to 278 00:25:58,706 --> 00:26:02,316 watch it, although I do think that we should also have a discussion in our 279 00:26:02,316 --> 00:26:08,350 society, what we wanted to see and what we don't want to see. 280 00:26:08,350 --> 00:26:12,780 From the fact, from the perspective that the world is complicated and we may 281 00:26:12,780 --> 00:26:17,480 have the right to access all sorts of information, even that is not so 282 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:23,030 pleasant and not so easy to digest. So this law does not make this 283 00:26:23,030 --> 00:26:28,030 differentiation. There is no mention of how this should be intentional to qualify 284 00:26:28,030 --> 00:26:34,600 to be considered so-called terrorist content. And that's a big problem. So as 285 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,810 you can see, there is a fallacy in this narrative because these will be the member 286 00:26:38,810 --> 00:26:45,809 states and their so-called competent authorities that will be deciding what the 287 00:26:45,809 --> 00:26:54,460 terrorist content is. And, of course, Europeans have a tendency, a tendency to 288 00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:59,900 think we have the tendency to think of ourselves as the the societies and the 289 00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:07,160 nations and the countries that champion the rule of law and that and that actually 290 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:13,700 respect fundamental rights and expect, respect freedom of speech. But we also 291 00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:18,490 know that this is changing rapidly. And I also will show you examples of how that 292 00:27:18,490 --> 00:27:24,510 changes in this area that we're talking about right now. So. So I do not have 293 00:27:24,510 --> 00:27:29,546 great trust in in European governments into making the correct judgment about 294 00:27:29,546 --> 00:27:45,421 that. So. So we have this category of very dubious and and very broad terrorist 295 00:27:45,421 --> 00:27:56,250 content. And then, so how it's how it's being done. The, the basically all that 296 00:27:56,250 --> 00:28:01,169 power to decide what the content, like how to deal with that content, is actually 297 00:28:01,169 --> 00:28:04,880 outsourced to private actors. So the platforms that we are talking about 298 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,450 becomes kind of mercenaries because both the commission and I guess many 299 00:28:09,450 --> 00:28:13,399 member states say, well, it's not possible that the judge will actually look through 300 00:28:13,399 --> 00:28:18,169 content that is placed online and give, you know, proper judiciary decisions about 301 00:28:18,169 --> 00:28:21,951 what should, what constitute freedom of expression and what goes beyond it. 302 00:28:21,951 --> 00:28:29,425 Because it hurts other people or is basically a proof of something illegal. 303 00:28:29,425 --> 00:28:32,900 So the platforms will take those decisions. This will be the hosting 304 00:28:32,900 --> 00:28:39,870 service providers, as I mentioned. And then also a lot of the reliance that they 305 00:28:39,870 --> 00:28:44,074 will do it right is put into the wishful thinking in this proposal that says, well, 306 00:28:44,074 --> 00:28:47,855 basically, you have to put in terms of service that you will not host terrorist 307 00:28:47,855 --> 00:28:52,550 content. So then that again, there is a layer in there where the platform, 308 00:28:52,550 --> 00:29:01,234 let's say Facebook or Twitter or any anyone else actually decides what and how 309 00:29:01,234 --> 00:29:06,890 they wanted to deal with that in detail. Also, one thing I didn't mention is that 310 00:29:06,890 --> 00:29:10,880 looking for this regulation and looking at who is the platform that should basically 311 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,513 have those terms of service we realize that Wikimedia that actually our platforms 312 00:29:15,513 --> 00:29:21,210 will actually be in the scope of that. So not only that may affect the way we can 313 00:29:21,210 --> 00:29:29,340 document and reference the articles that are appearing on Wikipedia, on all those 314 00:29:29,340 --> 00:29:34,090 all those, on the events that are described or the groups or the political 315 00:29:34,090 --> 00:29:39,990 situation and what not. But also that, you know, our community of editors will have 316 00:29:39,990 --> 00:29:44,792 less and less to say if we have to put a lot of emphasis on terms of service. I 317 00:29:44,792 --> 00:29:49,530 just think that we are somehow a collateral damage of this. But also this 318 00:29:49,530 --> 00:29:54,860 doesn't console me much because, of course, Internet is bigger than than our 319 00:29:54,860 --> 00:30:00,379 projects. And also, we want to make sure that, that content is not being removed 320 00:30:00,379 --> 00:30:07,845 elsewhere. So basically the 3 measures are the removal orders, as I mentioned. And 321 00:30:07,845 --> 00:30:11,690 this is something that is fairly, fairly straightforward. And actually, I'm 322 00:30:11,690 --> 00:30:15,830 wondering why there has to be a special law to bring it, because, to being 323 00:30:15,830 --> 00:30:20,410 because the removal order is basically a decision that the competent authority in 324 00:30:20,410 --> 00:30:24,950 the member state releases and sends it to the platform. The problem is that 325 00:30:24,950 --> 00:30:30,204 according to the commission, the platform should actually act on it in 1 hour. And 326 00:30:30,204 --> 00:30:34,586 then again, we ask them why 1 hour and not 74 minutes? And they say, "Well, because 327 00:30:34,586 --> 00:30:39,705 we actually know", I don't know how, but they say they do. Let's take it at face 328 00:30:39,705 --> 00:30:46,250 value. "We actually know that the content is the most, you know, viral and spreads 329 00:30:46,250 --> 00:30:50,602 the fastest within, has the biggest range within the 1 hour from appearance". And 330 00:30:50,602 --> 00:30:54,475 then we ask them "Well, but how can you know that? Actually, the people that find 331 00:30:54,475 --> 00:30:59,800 the content find it exactly on the moment when it comes up. Maybe it has been around 332 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:05,940 for 2 weeks and this 1 hour window when it went really viral is like long gone". And 333 00:31:05,940 --> 00:31:11,730 here they don't really answer, obviously. So this is one of the measures 334 00:31:11,730 --> 00:31:17,090 that I guess makes the most sense out of all of that. Then we have the referrals 335 00:31:17,090 --> 00:31:20,100 that we call lazy removal orders. And this is this is really 336 00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:23,834 something that is very puzzling for me because the referral is a situation in 337 00:31:23,834 --> 00:31:28,090 which this competent authority and the person working there goes through the 338 00:31:28,090 --> 00:31:33,480 content, through the videos or postings and looks at it and says, "Well, I think, 339 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:38,908 I think it's against the terms of service of this platform, but does not actually 340 00:31:38,908 --> 00:31:43,740 release this removal order, but writes to the platform, let's them know and say, 341 00:31:43,740 --> 00:31:48,809 "Hey, can you please check this out?" I'm sorry, I'm confused, is this the time that 342 00:31:48,809 --> 00:31:56,223 I have left or the time? OK, good, time is important here. So so basically, you know, 343 00:31:56,223 --> 00:32:00,250 they are basically, won't spend the time to prepare this removal order 344 00:32:00,250 --> 00:32:05,840 and right and take let the platform to, tell the platform actually to remove it. 345 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,490 But they will just ask them to please verify whether this content should be 346 00:32:09,490 --> 00:32:14,821 there or not. And first of all, this is the real outsourcing of power 347 00:32:14,821 --> 00:32:20,063 over the speech and expression. But also we know how platforms take those 348 00:32:20,063 --> 00:32:26,240 decisions. They have a very short time. The people that do it are sitting 349 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,650 somewhere, most probably where the content is not originating from. So they don't 350 00:32:30,650 --> 00:32:34,418 understand the context. Sometimes they don't understand the language. And also, 351 00:32:34,418 --> 00:32:38,062 you know, it's better to get rid of it just in case it really is problematic, 352 00:32:38,062 --> 00:32:42,240 right? So this is something that is completely increased this great gray area 353 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:51,559 of information that is controversial enough to be flagged, but it's not illegal 354 00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:57,070 enough to be removed by the order. By the way, the European Parliament actually 355 00:32:57,070 --> 00:33:03,200 kicked this out from their version. So now the fight is in this negotiation between 356 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,598 the 3 institutions to actually follow this recommendation and just remove it, because 357 00:33:07,598 --> 00:33:13,230 it really does not make sense. And it really makes the people that 358 00:33:13,230 --> 00:33:17,700 release those referrals not really accountable for their decisions 359 00:33:17,700 --> 00:33:22,449 because they don't take the decision. They just make a suggestion. And then we have 360 00:33:22,449 --> 00:33:26,629 the proactive measures, which most definitely will lead to over-policing of 361 00:33:26,629 --> 00:33:31,799 content. There is a whole, a very clever description in the law that basically 362 00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:35,940 boils down to the point that if you are going to use content filtering and if 363 00:33:35,940 --> 00:33:40,677 you're going to prevent content from disappearing, then basically you are 364 00:33:40,677 --> 00:33:44,320 doing a good job as a platform. And this is the way to actually deal with 365 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:50,648 terrorist content. Since, however we define it, again, this is very 366 00:33:50,648 --> 00:33:56,079 context-oriented, very context-dependent. It's really very difficult to say based on 367 00:33:56,079 --> 00:33:59,829 what sort of criteria and based, based on what sort of databases those 368 00:33:59,829 --> 00:34:05,242 automated processes will be, will be happening. So, of course, 369 00:34:05,242 --> 00:34:10,159 as it happens in today's world, Somebody privatizes 370 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:17,299 the profits, but the losses are always socialized. And this is now no 371 00:34:17,299 --> 00:34:23,849 exception from that rule. So, again, when we were talking to the European Commission 372 00:34:23,849 --> 00:34:29,320 and asking them, "Why is this not a piece of legislation that belongs to the 373 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:36,560 enforcement of the law?" And that is then not controlled by a heavily by the 374 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,620 judiciary system and by any other sort of oversight, that enforcements usually had. 375 00:34:40,620 --> 00:34:44,460 "They have, well, because, you know, when we have those videos of beheadings, 376 00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:48,334 they usually don't happen in Europe and they are really beyond our jurisdiction". 377 00:34:48,334 --> 00:34:51,628 So, of course, nobody will act on it. On the very meaningful level of 378 00:34:51,628 --> 00:34:54,259 actually finding the people that that are killing, 379 00:34:54,259 --> 00:34:57,129 that are in the business of killing others and making 380 00:34:57,129 --> 00:35:02,873 sure they cannot continue with this activity. So it's very clear that this 381 00:35:02,873 --> 00:35:08,470 whole law is about cleaning the Internet and not really about a meaningfully 382 00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:18,500 tackling societal problems that lead to that sort of violence. Also the 383 00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:22,540 redress, which is the mechanism in which the user can say, hey, this is not the 384 00:35:22,540 --> 00:35:26,459 right decision. I actually believe this content is not illegal at all. And it's 385 00:35:26,459 --> 00:35:31,397 important for me to say this and this is my right and I want it to be up. Those, 386 00:35:31,397 --> 00:35:38,570 those provisions are very weak. You cannot actually protest meaningfully against a 387 00:35:38,570 --> 00:35:42,670 removal order of your content. Of course, you can always take states, the states to 388 00:35:42,670 --> 00:35:47,640 court. But we know how amazingly interesting that is and how fast it 389 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:53,030 happens. So that, so we can I think we can agree that there is no meaningful way 390 00:35:53,030 --> 00:36:00,140 to actually protest. Also, the state may ask, well, actually, this this removal 391 00:36:00,140 --> 00:36:05,410 order should... the user should not be informed that the content has been has 392 00:36:05,410 --> 00:36:10,690 been taken down because of terrorism. So. Or depicting terrorism or glorifying 393 00:36:10,690 --> 00:36:16,193 or whatever. So even you may not even know why the content is taken down. It will be 394 00:36:16,193 --> 00:36:22,013 a secret. For referrals and for proactive measures, well, you know what? Go talk to 395 00:36:22,013 --> 00:36:26,535 the platform and protest with them. And then, of course, the other question is, so 396 00:36:26,535 --> 00:36:30,506 who is the terrorist? Right. Because this is a very important question that that we 397 00:36:30,506 --> 00:36:37,589 should have answered if we wanted to... if we wanted to have a law that actually is 398 00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:42,330 meaningfully engaging with those issues. And of course, well, the as you know 399 00:36:42,330 --> 00:36:48,591 already from what I said, the European Commission in that particular case does 400 00:36:48,591 --> 00:36:54,398 not provide a very good answer. But we have some other responses to that. For 401 00:36:54,398 --> 00:37:03,367 example, Europol has created a report and then there was a blog post based on that. 402 00:37:03,367 --> 00:37:07,622 On the title "On the importance of taking down non-violent terrorist content". 403 00:37:07,622 --> 00:37:11,428 So we have the European Commission that says, "Yes, it's about the beheadings and 404 00:37:11,428 --> 00:37:15,576 about the mutilations". And we have Europol that says, "You know, actually 405 00:37:15,576 --> 00:37:19,879 this non-violent terrorist content is super important". So basically what they 406 00:37:19,879 --> 00:37:25,459 say and I quote, "Poetry is a literary medium that is widely appreciated across 407 00:37:25,459 --> 00:37:30,457 the Arab world and is an important part of their region's identity. Mastering it 408 00:37:30,457 --> 00:37:34,810 provides the poet with singular authority in Arabic culture. The most prominent 409 00:37:34,810 --> 00:37:39,660 jihadi leaders - including Osama bin Laden and former Islamic State spokesman 410 00:37:39,660 --> 00:37:43,196 Abu Muhammad al-Adnadi - frequently included poetry in their 411 00:37:43,196 --> 00:37:46,447 speeches or wrote poems of their own. Their charisma was 412 00:37:46,447 --> 00:37:49,380 closely intertwined with their mastery of poetry." 413 00:37:49,380 --> 00:37:54,810 So we can see the art that is being made by Europol between a very important aspect 414 00:37:54,810 --> 00:37:59,260 of a culture that is beautiful and enriching and about the fact that this, 415 00:37:59,260 --> 00:38:03,460 that, that Europol wants it to see it weaponized. The other part of the blogpost 416 00:38:03,460 --> 00:38:08,369 was about how ISIS presents interesting activities that their members... their, 417 00:38:08,369 --> 00:38:12,531 their... their fighters have. And one of them is that they are enjoying themselves 418 00:38:12,531 --> 00:38:16,936 and smiling and spending time together and swimming. So what? How do we, what do we 419 00:38:16,936 --> 00:38:20,228 make out of that? So the video of some brown people swimming are now 420 00:38:20,228 --> 00:38:27,760 terrorist content? This is... the blatant racism of, of this, of this communication 421 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:33,359 really enrages me. And I think it's really a shame that that nobody called Europol 422 00:38:33,359 --> 00:38:39,530 out on this, when the blogpost came up. We also have laws in Europe that are 423 00:38:39,530 --> 00:38:44,770 different. I mean, this is not the same legislation, but that actually give the... 424 00:38:44,770 --> 00:38:51,466 give the the taste of what may happen. One is the the Spanish law against hate 425 00:38:51,466 --> 00:38:57,111 speech. And, and this is an important part. It didn't happen online, but it 426 00:38:57,111 --> 00:39:02,500 shows the approach, that basically first you have legislators that say, oh, don't 427 00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:06,450 worry about this, we really want to go after bad guys. And then what happens is 428 00:39:06,450 --> 00:39:10,930 that there was a puppeteer performance done by 2 people, "The Witch and Don 429 00:39:10,930 --> 00:39:15,840 Christóbal" and the puppets were actually... this is the kind of 430 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:22,890 Punch and Judy performance in which, this is a genre of, of theater, theatric 431 00:39:22,890 --> 00:39:30,109 performances, I'm sorry. That is kind of full of silly jokes and and sometimes 432 00:39:30,109 --> 00:39:36,000 excessive and and unjustified violence and, and the, and the full of bad taste. 433 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,860 And this is quite serious. And the, the 2 characters in the, the 2 puppets held the 434 00:39:40,860 --> 00:39:46,400 banner that featured a made-up terrorist organization. And after that performance, 435 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:52,410 actually, they were charged with, first of all, promoting terrorism, even though 436 00:39:52,410 --> 00:39:55,940 there is no terrorist organization like that. And then also with inciting, 437 00:39:55,940 --> 00:40:01,859 inciting hatred. And this is what's one of the puppeteers said after describing this 438 00:40:01,859 --> 00:40:07,270 whole horrible experience. Finally, the charges were dropped. So this is good. But 439 00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:11,570 I think this really sums up who is the terrorists and how those laws are being 440 00:40:11,570 --> 00:40:20,103 used against people who actually have nothing to do with, with violence. We were 441 00:40:20,103 --> 00:40:23,981 charged with inciting hatred, which is a felony created in theory to protect 442 00:40:23,981 --> 00:40:27,228 vulnerable minorities, the minorities in this case where the church, 443 00:40:27,228 --> 00:40:29,868 the police and the legal system. *laughter* 444 00:40:29,868 --> 00:40:33,569 Then, again in Spain, I don't want to single out this beautiful country, but 445 00:40:33,569 --> 00:40:36,998 actually, unfortunately, they have good examples. This is a very recent 446 00:40:36,998 --> 00:40:44,310 one. So Tsunami Democràtic in Catalonia created an app to actually help people 447 00:40:44,310 --> 00:40:49,770 organize small action in a decentralized manner. And they placed the documentations 448 00:40:49,770 --> 00:40:56,609 on GitHub. And it was taken down by the order of, of the Spanish court. And also 449 00:40:56,609 --> 00:41:01,463 the - and this is the practical application of such laws online - also, 450 00:41:01,463 --> 00:41:06,600 the website of Tsunami Democràtic was taken down by the court. Of course, 451 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,580 both of that on charges of of facilitating terrorist 452 00:41:10,580 --> 00:41:15,790 activities and inciting to terrorism. So why is it important? 453 00:41:15,790 --> 00:41:19,776 Because of what comes next. So there will be the Digital Services Act, 454 00:41:19,776 --> 00:41:23,651 which will be an overhaul of this idea that I mentioned at the beginning, which 455 00:41:23,651 --> 00:41:27,850 is that basically platform are not responsible by default, by what we put 456 00:41:27,850 --> 00:41:34,250 online. And European Commission and other, the European Commission and other 457 00:41:34,250 --> 00:41:38,070 actors in the EU are toying with the idea that maybe platforms should be somehow 458 00:41:38,070 --> 00:41:43,800 responsible. So, of course. And it's not only about social media, but basically 459 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:51,180 anybody that any sort of, of a service that helps people place content online. 460 00:41:51,180 --> 00:41:54,900 And then, the, one of the ideas, we don't know what it's going to be, it's not 461 00:41:54,900 --> 00:41:58,176 there yet. It's going to happen at the beginning of the next year, so 462 00:41:58,176 --> 00:42:01,864 quite soon. But we can actually expect that the so-called "Good Samaritan" 463 00:42:01,864 --> 00:42:05,704 rule will be 1 of the solutions proposed. What is this rule? This rule basically 464 00:42:05,704 --> 00:42:11,090 means if a platform is really going the extra mile and doing a good job in 465 00:42:11,090 --> 00:42:16,851 removing the content, that is what... that is either illegal or again or again, a 466 00:42:16,851 --> 00:42:22,987 very difficult category, harmful. I also don't know what that exactly means. Then 467 00:42:22,987 --> 00:42:27,758 if they behave well, then they will not be held responsible. So this is basically a 468 00:42:27,758 --> 00:42:31,838 proposal that you cannot really turn down, because if you run the business, you want 469 00:42:31,838 --> 00:42:35,675 to manage the risk of that and you don't want to be fined. And you and you don't 470 00:42:35,675 --> 00:42:40,070 want to pay, pay money. So, of course, you try and overpolice and of course you try 471 00:42:40,070 --> 00:42:44,120 and you filter the content and of course you take content when it only raises a 472 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:52,320 question what sort of... what sort of content that is. Is it neutral or 473 00:42:52,320 --> 00:43:00,330 is it maybe, you know, making somebody offended or... or stirred? And, of course, 474 00:43:00,330 --> 00:43:05,480 other attempts, we heard it from Germany. Which is basically that there wasn't a 475 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:15,220 proposal to actually make... oblige.. like make platforms obliged to give passwords 476 00:43:15,220 --> 00:43:21,193 of users of social media. The people that are under investigation or prosecution. 477 00:43:21,193 --> 00:43:26,829 And also, of course, we see that one of the ideas that supposedly is going to fix 478 00:43:26,829 --> 00:43:31,677 everything is that, well, if terrorists communicate through encrypted services, 479 00:43:31,677 --> 00:43:35,485 then maybe we should do something about encryption. And there was a petition 480 00:43:35,485 --> 00:43:41,890 already on (?) to actually go in to actually forbid encryption for those 481 00:43:41,890 --> 00:43:46,540 services after one of the one of the terrorist attacks. So, of course, it 482 00:43:46,540 --> 00:43:53,109 sounds, it sounds very extreme. But this is, in my opinion, the next the next 483 00:43:53,109 --> 00:44:00,383 frontier here. So what can we do? Because this is all quite difficult. So as I 484 00:44:00,383 --> 00:44:04,920 mentioned, the negotiations are still on. So there is still time to talk to 485 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,880 your government. And this is very import because, of course, the governments, when 486 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,850 they have this idea... they have this proposal on the table, that they will be 487 00:44:12,850 --> 00:44:18,360 able to decide finally who is the terrorist and what is the terrorist 488 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:23,000 content. And also, that's on one hand. On the other hand, they know that people 489 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,650 don't really care all that much about what happens in the E.U., which is 490 00:44:26,650 --> 00:44:31,383 unfortunately true. They are actually supporting very much the commission's 491 00:44:31,383 --> 00:44:35,188 proposals. The only thing that they don't like is the fact that somebody from the 492 00:44:35,188 --> 00:44:41,710 police, from other country can maybe interfere with content in their language, 493 00:44:41,710 --> 00:44:46,570 because that's one of the provisions that that also is there. So, so this is what 494 00:44:46,570 --> 00:44:50,950 they don't like. They want to keep their there the territoriality of their 495 00:44:50,950 --> 00:44:56,701 enforcement laws intact. But there is still time and we can still do this. And 496 00:44:56,701 --> 00:45:00,220 if you want to talk to me about what are the good ways to do it, I'm 497 00:45:00,220 --> 00:45:04,778 available here. And I would love to take that conversation up with you. The other 498 00:45:04,778 --> 00:45:11,374 is a very simple measure that I believe is is always working. Is one that basically 499 00:45:11,374 --> 00:45:16,119 is about telling just 1 friend, even 1 friend, and asking them to do the same to 500 00:45:16,119 --> 00:45:20,134 talk to other people about this. And there are 2 reasons to do it. One is because, of 501 00:45:20,134 --> 00:45:23,666 course, then we make people aware of what it happens. And the other in this 502 00:45:23,666 --> 00:45:29,350 particular case that is very important is that basically people are scared of 503 00:45:29,350 --> 00:45:33,284 terrorism and, and they support a lot of measures just because they hear this word. 504 00:45:33,284 --> 00:45:36,999 And when we explain, that, what that really means and when we unpack this a 505 00:45:36,999 --> 00:45:40,392 little bit, we build the resilience to those arguments. And I think it's 506 00:45:40,392 --> 00:45:43,017 important. The other people who should know about this 507 00:45:43,017 --> 00:45:46,377 are activists working with vulnerable groups because of the 508 00:45:46,377 --> 00:45:50,355 stigmatization that I already mentioned and because 509 00:45:50,355 --> 00:45:54,804 of the fact that we need to document horrible things that are happening to 510 00:45:54,804 --> 00:45:58,703 people in other places in the world and also here in Europe. And journalists 511 00:45:58,703 --> 00:46:02,824 and media organizations, because they will be affected by this law. And by the 512 00:46:02,824 --> 00:46:06,918 way, how they can report and where they can they can get the sources for their 513 00:46:06,918 --> 00:46:12,025 information. So I think I went massively over time from what it was planned. I hope 514 00:46:12,025 --> 00:46:16,760 we can still have some questions. Thank you. So, yeah. Talk to me more about this 515 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:23,058 now and then after the talk. Thank you. 516 00:46:23,058 --> 00:46:33,057 *applause* 517 00:46:33,057 --> 00:46:37,310 Herald: Thanks for your talk. We still have time for questions, so please, if you 518 00:46:37,310 --> 00:46:42,600 have a question, line up at the mics. We have 1, 2, 3 evenly distributed through 519 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:47,231 the room. I want to remind you really quickly that a question normally is one 520 00:46:47,231 --> 00:46:50,520 sentence and ends with a question mark. *laughter* 521 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:55,530 Not everybody seems to know that. So we start with mic number 2. 522 00:46:55,530 --> 00:47:02,460 Mic2: Hello. I... so I run Tor Relays in the United States. It seems like a lot of 523 00:47:02,460 --> 00:47:07,570 these laws are focused on the notion of centralized platforms. Do they define what 524 00:47:07,570 --> 00:47:12,400 a platform is and are they going to extradite me because I am facilitating Tor 525 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,249 Onion service? A: Should we answer, no? 526 00:47:16,249 --> 00:47:21,895 H: Yeah. A: Okay, yes, so they do and they don't 527 00:47:21,895 --> 00:47:26,000 in a way that the definition it's based on basically what 528 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,839 the the hosting provider is in in the European law is 529 00:47:30,839 --> 00:47:36,089 actually very broad. So it doesn't take into account the fact how big you are or 530 00:47:36,089 --> 00:47:42,420 how you run your services. The bottom line is that if you allow people to put content 531 00:47:42,420 --> 00:47:47,161 up and share it with, again, 3rd party, which may be the whole room here, it may 532 00:47:47,161 --> 00:47:51,460 be the whole world but it may be just the people I want to share things to with. 533 00:47:51,460 --> 00:47:57,750 Then then you're obliged to to use the measures that are... or, or to comply with 534 00:47:57,750 --> 00:48:01,940 the measures that are envisioned in this regulation. And there is a there's a 535 00:48:01,940 --> 00:48:06,590 debate also in the parliament. It was taken up and narrowed down actually to the 536 00:48:06,590 --> 00:48:11,520 communication to the public. So I guess then as you correctly observe, it is more 537 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:17,130 about about the big platforms or about the centralized services. But actually the, in 538 00:48:17,130 --> 00:48:20,849 the commission version, nothing makes me believe that, that only then will be 539 00:48:20,849 --> 00:48:26,358 affected. On the contrary, also the, the messaging services may be. 540 00:48:26,358 --> 00:48:34,880 H: Okay, um, next question, mic number 3. Mic3: Is it, uh, a photo with the upload 541 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:41,250 filters, the copyright directive, it was really similar debate, especially on 542 00:48:41,250 --> 00:48:46,589 small companies, because, um, uh, at that time, the question was they tried to push 543 00:48:46,589 --> 00:48:51,010 upload filters for copyright content. And the question was, uh, how does that fit 544 00:48:51,010 --> 00:48:55,871 with small companies? And they still haven't provided an answer to that. Uh, 545 00:48:55,871 --> 00:48:59,560 the problem is they took the copyright directive and basically inspired 546 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:04,041 themselves from the upload filters and applied it to terrorist content. And it's 547 00:49:04,041 --> 00:49:07,928 again, the question, how does that work with small Internet companies that have to 548 00:49:07,928 --> 00:49:13,788 have someone on call during the nights and things like that. So even big 549 00:49:13,788 --> 00:49:17,380 providers, I heard they don't have the means to, to properly enforce that 550 00:49:17,380 --> 00:49:22,569 something like this, this is a killer for the European Internet industry. 551 00:49:22,569 --> 00:49:26,060 A: Yes. *laughter* 552 00:49:26,060 --> 00:49:32,230 *applause* H: I want to give a short reminder on the 553 00:49:32,230 --> 00:49:39,339 1 sentence rule. We have a question from the Internet. Signal angel, please. 554 00:49:39,339 --> 00:49:44,696 Signal Angel: Yes, what, the question is, wouldn't decentralized social networks 555 00:49:44,696 --> 00:49:52,429 bypass these regulations? A: I'm not a lawyer, but I will give a 556 00:49:52,429 --> 00:49:55,902 question, I give an answer to this question that the lawyer would give, 557 00:49:55,902 --> 00:49:58,709 I maybe spent too much time with lawyers. That depends. 558 00:49:58,709 --> 00:50:01,220 *laughter* A: Because it really does, because this 559 00:50:01,220 --> 00:50:05,800 definition of who is obliged is so broad that a lot depends on the context, a lot 560 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:10,940 depends on what is happening, what is being shared and how. So it's, it's very 561 00:50:10,940 --> 00:50:14,718 difficult to say. I just want to say that we also had this conversation about 562 00:50:14,718 --> 00:50:20,489 copyright and many people came to me last year at Congress. I wasn't giving a talk 563 00:50:20,489 --> 00:50:24,806 about it, but I was at the talk about the copyright directive and the filtering. And 564 00:50:24,806 --> 00:50:28,649 many people said, well, actually, you know, if you're not using those services, 565 00:50:28,649 --> 00:50:32,540 you will not be affected. And actually, when we share peer to peer, then this is 566 00:50:32,540 --> 00:50:36,820 not an issue. But actually, this is changing. And there is actually 567 00:50:36,820 --> 00:50:41,959 a decision of the European Court of Justice. And the decisions are not like 568 00:50:41,959 --> 00:50:45,242 basically the law, but basically they are very often then followed and 569 00:50:45,242 --> 00:50:49,319 incorporated. And this is the... and this is the decision on the Pirate Bay and 570 00:50:49,319 --> 00:50:53,680 in... on Pirate Bay. And in this decision, the court says that, well, the argument 571 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,716 that Pirate Bay made was basically we're not hosting any content. We're just 572 00:50:57,716 --> 00:51:03,986 connecting people with it. And in short, and the court said, well, 573 00:51:03,986 --> 00:51:09,148 actually, we don't care. Because you organize it, you optimize it, you like 574 00:51:09,148 --> 00:51:12,269 the info, you optimize the information, you bring it to people. 575 00:51:12,269 --> 00:51:15,696 And the fact that you don't share it does not really mean anything. And 576 00:51:15,696 --> 00:51:20,280 you are liable for the, for the copyright infringements. So, again, this is about a 577 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:26,700 different issue, but this is a very relevant way of thinking that we may 578 00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:30,670 expect that it will be translated into other types of content. So, again, the 579 00:51:30,670 --> 00:51:36,040 fact that that you don't host anything but you just connect people to one another 580 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:42,480 will not be... may not be something that, that will take you off the hook. 581 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:49,190 H: Microphone number 3. Mic3: Do these proposals contain or... 582 00:51:49,190 --> 00:51:54,572 what sort of repercussions do these proposals contained for filing a request, 583 00:51:54,572 --> 00:51:58,921 removal requests that are later determined to be illegitimate? Is this just a free 584 00:51:58,921 --> 00:52:03,460 pass to censor things? Or can.... are there repercussions? 585 00:52:03,460 --> 00:52:07,619 A: You... just want to make sure I understand, you mean the removal orders, 586 00:52:07,619 --> 00:52:09,867 the ones that say remove content, and that's it? 587 00:52:09,867 --> 00:52:13,450 Mic3: Yeah. If somebody files a removal order that is determined later to be 588 00:52:13,450 --> 00:52:16,868 completely illegitimate. Are there repercussions? 589 00:52:16,868 --> 00:52:22,882 A: Well, the problem starts even before that because again, the removal orders are 590 00:52:22,882 --> 00:52:26,839 being issued by competent authorities. So there's like a designated authority that 591 00:52:26,839 --> 00:52:31,206 can do it. Not everybody can. And basically, the order says this is the 592 00:52:31,206 --> 00:52:36,410 content. This is the URL. This is the legal basis. Take it down. So there is no 593 00:52:36,410 --> 00:52:41,452 way to protest it. And the platform can only not follow this order within 1 hour 594 00:52:41,452 --> 00:52:46,094 in 2 situations. One is that the force majeure, that is usually the issue. 595 00:52:46,094 --> 00:52:49,706 Basically, there's some sort of external circumstance that prevents them from 596 00:52:49,706 --> 00:52:52,432 doing it. I don't know. Complete power outage 597 00:52:52,432 --> 00:52:55,272 or problem with their servers that basically they cannot 598 00:52:55,272 --> 00:52:59,550 access and remove or block access to this content. The other is if the 599 00:52:59,550 --> 00:53:04,796 request... the removal order, I'm sorry, contains errors that actually make it 600 00:53:04,796 --> 00:53:09,300 impossible to do. So, for example, there is no URL or it's broken and it doesn't 601 00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:13,565 lead anywhere. And these are the only 2 situations. In the rest, the content has 602 00:53:13,565 --> 00:53:19,839 to be removed. And there is no way for the user and no way for the platform 603 00:53:19,839 --> 00:53:23,829 to actually say, well, hold on, this is not the way to do it. And therefore, after 604 00:53:23,829 --> 00:53:28,690 it's being implemented to say, well, that was a bad decision. As I said, you can 605 00:53:28,690 --> 00:53:33,569 always go to court with the, with your state, but not many people will do it. 606 00:53:33,569 --> 00:53:39,223 And this is not really a meaningful way to address this. 607 00:53:39,223 --> 00:53:46,260 H: Next question. Mic number 3. Mic3: How many... how much time do we have 608 00:53:46,260 --> 00:53:50,890 to contact the parliamentarians to inform them maybe that there is some big issue 609 00:53:50,890 --> 00:53:55,450 with this? What's the worst case timetable at the moment? 610 00:53:55,450 --> 00:53:59,630 A: That's a very good question. And thank you for asking because... this ... because 611 00:53:59,630 --> 00:54:05,020 I forgot to mention this. That actually is quite urgent. So the commission wanted to, 612 00:54:05,020 --> 00:54:10,210 like usually, in those situations, the commission wanted to close the thing until 613 00:54:10,210 --> 00:54:14,631 the end of the year and they didn't manage it because there is no, no agreement 614 00:54:14,631 --> 00:54:20,240 on those most pressing issues. But we expect that the, the best 615 00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:25,900 case scenario is that until March, maybe until June, it will probably happen 616 00:54:25,900 --> 00:54:31,280 earlier. It may be the next couple of months. And there will be lots of meetings 617 00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:36,950 about about that. So this is more or less the timeline. It's, there's no sort of 618 00:54:36,950 --> 00:54:41,507 external deadline for this, right, so this is just an estimation and of course, 619 00:54:41,507 --> 00:54:44,320 it may change, but, but this is what we expect. 620 00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,950 H: We have another question from the Internet. 621 00:54:46,950 --> 00:54:52,500 S: Does this law considers that such content is used for psychological 622 00:54:52,500 --> 00:54:58,748 warfare by big nations? A: I'm sorry. I... Again, please. 623 00:54:58,748 --> 00:55:04,130 S: This, this content is, pictures or video of whatsever, does this law 624 00:55:04,130 --> 00:55:08,520 consider that such content is used for psychological warfare? 625 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:17,730 A: Well, I'm trying to see how that relates. I think the law is... does not go 626 00:55:17,730 --> 00:55:24,589 into details like that in a way. Which means that I can go back to the definition 627 00:55:24,589 --> 00:55:31,740 that basically it's just about the fact that if the content appears to be positive 628 00:55:31,740 --> 00:55:37,550 about terrorist activities, then that's the basis of taking it down. But there's 629 00:55:37,550 --> 00:55:42,350 nothing else that is being actually said about that. It's not more nuanced than 630 00:55:42,350 --> 00:55:48,590 that. So I guess the answer is no. H: One last question from mic number 2. 631 00:55:48,590 --> 00:55:54,690 Mic2: Are there, in... any case studies published on successful application of 632 00:55:54,690 --> 00:55:59,035 alike laws in other countries? I asked because we have alike laws in 633 00:55:59,035 --> 00:56:06,718 Russia for 12 years and it's not that useful as far as I see. 634 00:56:06,718 --> 00:56:11,218 A: Not that I know of. So I think it's also a very difficult 635 00:56:11,218 --> 00:56:15,840 thing to research because we can only research what, what we 636 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:21,181 know that happened. Right? In a way that you have to have people that actually are 637 00:56:21,181 --> 00:56:27,210 vocal about this and that complain about these laws not being enforced in the 638 00:56:27,210 --> 00:56:32,030 proper way. So, for example, content that taken down is completely about something 639 00:56:32,030 --> 00:56:39,113 else, which also sometimes happens. And, and that's very difficult. I think 640 00:56:39,113 --> 00:56:45,330 the biggest question here is whether there is an amount of studies 641 00:56:45,330 --> 00:56:49,920 documenting that something does not work that would prevent the European Union from 642 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:56,710 actually having this legislative fever. And I would argue that not, because, as 643 00:56:56,710 --> 00:57:00,859 they said, they don't have really good arguments or they don't really have good 644 00:57:00,859 --> 00:57:05,829 numbers to justify bringing this law at all. Not to mention bringing the 645 00:57:05,829 --> 00:57:12,418 ridiculous measures that they propose. So what we say sometimes 646 00:57:12,418 --> 00:57:15,631 in Brussels when we're very frustrated that we we were hoping, you 647 00:57:15,631 --> 00:57:21,309 know, being there and advocating for for human rights, is that we... we hoped 648 00:57:21,309 --> 00:57:26,000 for... that we can contribute to evidence based policy. But actually, what's 649 00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:31,678 happening, it's a policy based evidence. And, and this is the difficult part. So I 650 00:57:31,678 --> 00:57:37,819 am all for studies and I am all for presenting information that, you know, may 651 00:57:37,819 --> 00:57:41,734 possibly help legislators. There are definitely some MEP or some people there, 652 00:57:41,734 --> 00:57:45,599 even probably in the commission. Maybe they just are not allowed to voice 653 00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:50,650 their opinion on this because it's a highly political issue that would wish to 654 00:57:50,650 --> 00:57:54,930 have those studies or would wish to be able to use them. And that believe in 655 00:57:54,930 --> 00:58:00,779 that. But it's just, it doesn't translate into the political process. 656 00:58:00,779 --> 00:58:06,682 H: Okay. Time's up. If you have any more questions, you can come 657 00:58:06,682 --> 00:58:09,564 up and approach Anna later. A: Yes. 658 00:58:09,564 --> 00:58:14,498 H: There is please. Thanks. So first for me. 659 00:58:14,498 --> 00:58:17,060 Thanks for the talk. Thanks for patiently answer... 660 00:58:17,060 --> 00:58:20,899 *36c3 postroll music* 661 00:58:20,899 --> 00:58:43,000 Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de in the year 2021. Join, and help us!